Andy Schleck Discussion thread.

[LaFlorecita]

Great reason to be proud of being a hater. Very respectful reason.

What reason are you talking about? And what makes you think I'm proud of being a hater?

But we are not forgetting because of who he had to ride the Giro.

Who is he? And what has this to do with me being a hater?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I think contador fans and schleck fans are obsessed with each other

 

[VeloCity]

Contador is almost always competitive when he races. Regarding the Giro, are you forgetting that he was at the Giro because the Tour wasn't a definite possibility? Are you foolish enough to believe that if he were actually hoping to do the Giro/Tour double that ideally he would have chosen a year with a such a ridiculously challenging Giro parcours? Amazingly Contador's "toast" was still good enough to scare his opponents by his presence alone.

Chill. The claim was that Contador ALWAYS races to win. That's obviously not true. As for the Giro, the point there was that ALWAYS racing to win is really not a very good strategy for actually winning, ie racing to win the Giro meant he was toast at the Tour. Why he was at the Giro in the first place is beside the point.

Regarding Tour winner's who raced to win, does your recall only go as far as the year 2000? Does Hinault ring a bell? Of for that matter Indurain who won the Tour and the Giro twice in the same year? That isn't "racing to win" to you? What about last year's winner, Cadel Evans?

Seems to me that Andy rides to win quite a bit in the Ardennes - he's won L-B-L and finishes high up in L-B-L, Amstel, and Fleche just about every year, and still been competitive later on in the Tour. Isn't that more in the style of a Hinault? How many spring classics has Alberto raced to win? I can only recall a 3rd at Fleche one year. If anything, I'd say that makes Contador look more like the specialist than Andy.

 

[Angliru]

Chill. The claim was that Contador ALWAYS races to win. That's obviously not true. As for the Giro, the point there was that ALWAYS racing to win is really not a very good strategy for actually winning, ie racing to win the Giro meant he was toast at the Tour. Why he was at the Giro in the first place is beside the point.

Seems to me that Andy rides to win quite a bit in the Ardennes - he's won L-B-L and finishes high up in L-B-L, Amstel, and Fleche just about every year, and still been competitive later on in the Tour. Isn't that more in the style of a Hinault? How many spring classics has Alberto raced to win? I can only recall a 3rd at Fleche one year. If anything, I'd say that makes Contador look more like the specialist than Andy.

My apologies on my ignoring the "always" in the original post in my haste to respond. I am now chillin'.

Still though has Andy's singular focus (okay, in addition to the Ardennes' Week) been a recipe for ultimate success in the Tour? Last year should have been his year: an off-form Contador, minimal TT km's, and eventually many of his competitors crashing out and yet he had to resort to extraordinary measures to get himself back on the podium. Something is amiss in this strategy. With a weak Contador last year he had to be the overwhelming favorite with his string of 2nd places at the Tour.

If we're going to compare the two in terms of who actually competes for the most number of days per year I'd have to give the edge to Contador. It really can't be argued if you look at their palmares over the past several years.

Let me say I take that stance that I do only because I would love to be able to see Andy being a factor more often than the end of April and month of July primarily for my own entertainment. A talent such as his simply should be visible at the sharp end of races more often.

 

[jens_attacks]

hinault and schleck,now i've heard them all

 

[VeloCity]

My apologies on my ignoring the "always" in the original post in my haste to respond. I am now chillin'.

No worries

Still though has Andy's singular focus (okay, in addition to the Ardennes' Week) been a recipe for ultimate success in the Tour? Last year should have been his year: an off-form Contador, minimal TT km's, and eventually many of his competitors crashing out and yet he had to resort to extraordinary measures to get himself back on the podium. Something is amiss in this strategy. With a weak Contador last year he had to be the overwhelming favorite with his string of 2nd places at the Tour.

Oh I don't think there's something lacking in Andy's preparation recipe, I think he's just barely good enough to win the Tour at the best of times, and that means absolutely everything has to go right for him. He's one of the best climbers in the world but not so much stronger than his competitors that he can put enough distance on them to make up for the minutes he's going to lose in the TTs (and you can certainly question his tactical sense). But that doesn't mean that he doesn't race to win or have guts - he has that in spades. Contador, meanwhile, is just that rare athlete who can win under just about any circumstance (eg the infighting with Armstrong at Astana that one year). Andy usually comes in second simply because he's too much of a climbing specialist - Contador and Evans are just better all-around GC riders.

If we're going to compare the two in terms of who actually competes for the most number of days per year I'd have to give the edge to Contador. It really can't be argued if you look at their palmares over the past several years.

All I'm saying is that Andy does race to win quite a bit - a lot more often than some people seem to be willing to give him credit for - and in more of a variety of races than Alberto. Alberto is a specialist - he does stage races. Andy does both stage races and classics, and has had success in both types. IMO Alberto could easily be a great Ardennes rider, but he chooses not to. Let's give Andy some credit for doing both.

Let me say I take that stance that I do only because I would love to be able to see Andy being a factor more often than the end of April and month of July primarily for my own entertainment. A talent such as his simply should be visible at the sharp end of races more often.

I don't think Andy's mentally or physically strong enough to do that, but that's fine, it's just the way he is. Ullrich was the same way (mentally anyway). Now Frank, on the other hand, I do think could be more of a factor year-round.

 

[Angliru]

No worries

All I'm saying is that Andy does race to win quite a bit - a lot more often than some people seem to be willing to give him credit for - and in more of a variety of races than Alberto. Alberto is a specialist - he does stage races. Andy does both stage races and classics, and has had success in both types. IMO Alberto could easily be a great Ardennes rider, but he chooses not to. Let's give Andy some credit for doing both.

I don't think Andy's mentally or physically strong enough to do that, but that's fine, it's just the way he is. Ullrich was the same way (mentally anyway). Now Frank, on the other hand, I do think could be more of a factor year-round.

I do give Andy credit for his efforts in the Ardennes and the Tour but for me I have to ask "Is that all there is"?

I agree that Contador could be great in the Ardennes evidenced by his 3rd place in FW as you mentioned and his being instrumental in Vino's most recent win in LBL. I'd love to see him give a dual focus on them and hopefully he will in the future or at least one or two of the three events in that week.

I have to disagree on Frank. He's shown that he's in the occasionally from Paris-Nice to the Ardennes to the Tour and occasionally the Vuelta and Lombardia. IMO he's quite the opposite of Andy.

 

[Publicus]

My apologies on my ignoring the "always" in the original post in my haste to respond. I am now chillin'.

Still though has Andy's singular focus (okay, in addition to the Ardennes' Week) been a recipe for ultimate success in the Tour? Last year should have been his year: an off-form Contador, minimal TT km's, and eventually many of his competitors crashing out and yet he had to resort to extraordinary measures to get himself back on the podium. Something is amiss in this strategy. With a weak Contador last year he had to be the overwhelming favorite with his string of 2nd places at the Tour.

If we're going to compare the two in terms of who actually competes for the most number of days per year I'd have to give the edge to Contador. It really can't be argued if you look at their palmares over the past several years.

Let me say I take that stance that I do only because I would love to be able to see Andy being a factor more often than the end of April and month of July primarily for my own entertainment. A talent such as his simply should be visible at the sharp end of races more often.

This +100000000

 

[LaFlorecita]

Chill. The claim was that Contador ALWAYS races to win. That's obviously not true. As for the Giro, the point there was that ALWAYS racing to win is really not a very good strategy for actually winning, ie racing to win the Giro meant he was toast at the Tour. Why he was at the Giro in the first place is beside the point.

So when did Alberto not race for the win?

Seems to me that Andy rides to win quite a bit in the Ardennes - he's won L-B-L and finishes high up in L-B-L, Amstel, and Fleche just about every year, and still been competitive later on in the Tour. Isn't that more in the style of a Hinault? How many spring classics has Alberto raced to win? I can only recall a 3rd at Fleche one year. If anything, I'd say that makes Contador look more like the specialist than Andy.

I'm quite sure that if the Ardennes and the Tour were Alberto's only goal, he'd perform just as well or even better than Andy in them. He just chooses not to by riding all the early season stage races for the win. Of course he also always has trouble with his allergies in Spring.

 

[VeloCity]

So when did Alberto not race for the win?

5-second Google search.

http://astanafans.com/alberto-contador-“my-performance-in-liege-is-unknown”.html

"What do you expect about your performance next Sunday?

"I do not know, is a bit unknown. My aim is to gain experience, because to try to win here requires more experience and know better more the course. I'm uncertain."

"How important is the result for you?

"Of course, I'm always happy when I'm ahead, but these results do not influence at all in my preparation and performance that may have in July. It is the same to be third or finish 30."

Alberto does not always ride to win but that's not a knock against him, it would be insane if he did.

I'm quite sure that if the Ardennes and the Tour were Alberto's only goal, he'd perform just as well or even better than Andy in them.

And alternatively racing to win in the Ardennes may cause Alberto to flame out at the Tour. There's no way of knowing until he actually tries it.

He just chooses not to by riding all the early season stage races for the win. Of course he also always has trouble with his allergies in Spring.

So in other words he does what Andy does and picks his spots.

 

[VeloCity]

I do give Andy credit for his efforts in the Ardennes and the Tour but for me I have to ask "Is that all there is"?

Unfortunately I think that may be the case.

I agree that Contador could be great in the Ardennes evidenced by his 3rd place in FW as you mentioned and his being instrumental in Vino's most recent win in LBL. I'd love to see him give a dual focus on them and hopefully he will in the future or at least one or two of the three events in that week.

Me too.

I have to disagree on Frank. He's shown that he's in the occasionally from Paris-Nice to the Ardennes to the Tour and occasionally the Vuelta and Lombardia. IMO he's quite the opposite of Andy.

Oh I meant that Frank should give up on GC hopes altogether, ride solely in support of Andy at the Tour, and focus on single-day/short stage races year-round. I think he's more of a diesel than Andy could ever be and he could be a lot more successful in those types of races than trying to win the Tour or Vuelta.

 

[burning]

5-second Google search.

http://astanafans.com/alberto-contador-“my-performance-in-liege-is-unknown”.html

"What do you expect about your performance next Sunday?

"I do not know, is a bit unknown. My aim is to gain experience, because to try to win here requires more experience and know better more the course. I'm uncertain."

"How important is the result for you?

"Of course, I'm always happy when I'm ahead, but these results do not influence at all in my preparation and performance that may have in July. It is the same to be third or finish 30."

Alberto does not always ride to win but that's not a knock against him, it would be insane if he did.

And alternatively racing to win in the Ardennes may cause Alberto to flame out at the Tour. There's no way of knowing until he actually tries it.

So in other words he does what Andy does and picks his spots.

You seriously comparing Andy and Contador in "racing to win"?, seriously man you can see one of them in merely 3-4 weeks, you can see other guy virtually all season long trying to win stuff.

And he helped Vino, who won in LBL, thats pretty good for a stage race guy imo

 

[VeloCity]

You seriously comparing Andy and Contador in "racing to win"?, seriously man you can see one of them in merely 3-4 weeks, you can see other guy virtually all season long trying to win stuff.

And he helped Vino, who won in LBL, thats pretty good for a stage race guy imo

Clearly you missed the "Contador ALWAYS races to win" bit. And the part about Andy racing in the Ardennes.

And all season? What exactly has Alberto raced to win after the Tour? He won the Vuelta once (and that only because it was the year he missed the Tour) that I can recall. Seems to me that Contador's competitive season usually essentially stops at the end of July.

 

[burning]

Clearly you missed the "Contador ALWAYS races to win" bit.

Okay not %100 (Only Merckx can do that) but like in every single stage race he just tries to win, not dropping in a cat 3 climb like Andy because he's too bored to pedal a little bit harder

 

[LaFlorecita]

5-second Google search.

http://astanafans.com/alberto-contador-“my-performance-in-liege-is-unknown”.html

"What do you expect about your performance next Sunday?

"I do not know, is a bit unknown. My aim is to gain experience, because to try to win here requires more experience and know better more the course. I'm uncertain."

"How important is the result for you?

"Of course, I'm always happy when I'm ahead, but these results do not influence at all in my preparation and performance that may have in July. It is the same to be third or finish 30."

Alberto does not always ride to win but that's not a knock against him, it would be insane if he did.

Lol he was helping Vino there. Of course he isn't going to try and win when he's riding for another guy. He always races for the win when he is the team leader but he certainly doesn't feel superior and too good to help teammates win when the race is so much more suited to them.

And alternatively racing to win in the Ardennes may cause Alberto to flame out at the Tour. There's no way of knowing until he actually tries it.

So it's better if he never tries. Exactly. At least we agree on one thing.

So in other words he does what Andy does and picks his spots.

No. I meant that because he races all stage races for the win, he effectively eliminates himself from being a factor in the Ardennes.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Clearly you missed the "Contador ALWAYS races to win" bit. And the part about Andy racing in the Ardennes.

And all season? What exactly has Alberto raced to win after the Tour? He won the Vuelta once (and that only because it was the year he missed the Tour) that I can recall. Seems to me that Contador's competitive season usually essentially stops at the end of July.

From the beginning of February to the end of July is still a lot more than one week in April and 3 weeks in July.

 

[airstream]

One has its career and rides the way one can do it. And it's foolish to critisize someone for discording your cycling ideals. At any rate, saying "for such a huge talent blabla" is presumptuous. Again and again, Andy knows better. Real champions don't niggle using a junk of Algarve or Tour Oman. I support Andy at 100% in this regard.

 

[Shut Up Legs]

One has its career and rides the way one can do it. And it's foolish to critisize someone for discording your cycling ideals. At any rate, saying "for such a huge talent blabla" is presumptuous. Again and again, Andy knows better. Real champions don't niggle using a junk of Algarve or Tour Oman. I support Andy at 100% in this regard.

So he's too good for some races now?? Apparently he's too good for the Giro now and the Vuelta. Funny because Ryder Hesjedal is more of a real Tour champion than Andy. He won his Tour in the courtroom. Funny how Andy doesn't even consider it a win. He is a huge talent that lacks what true champions have to win Tours or even any stage races. FYI...Andy has not won a single stage race as a professional besides the courtroom Tour de France one.

 

[airstream]

So he's too good for some races now?? Apparently he's too good for the Giro now and the Vuelta. Funny because Ryder Hesjedal is more of a real Tour champion than Andy. He won his Tour in the courtroom. Funny how Andy doesn't even consider it a win. He is a huge talent that lacks what true champions have to win Tours or even any stage races. FYI...Andy has not won a single stage race as a professional besides the courtroom Tour de France one.

The Dauphine is about nothing. Certainly Andy feels a certain reserve and he would have held on in the group if it had been an important start. Being always good in the Tour he can not feel he does anything wrong. His goal is the Tour rather than "stage races" and its the Schlecks' family dream. Riders target races according to their abilities. Once again, what one week (we are considering them cos he'll never start Giro or Vuelta until 2nd Tour title at least) race could Andy target to win???

 

[burning]

The Dauphine is about nothing. Certainly Andy feels a certain reserve and he would have held on in the group if it had been an important start. Being always good in the Tour he can not feel he does anything wrong. His goal is the Tour rather than "stage races" and its the Schlecks' family dream. Riders target races according to their abilities. Once again, what one week (we are considering them cos he'll never start Giro or Vuelta until 2nd Tour title at least) race could Andy target to win???

T-A, Pais Vasco, TdS?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

The Dauphine is about nothing. Certainly Andy feels a certain reserve and he would have held on in the group if it had been an important start. Being always good in the Tour he can not feel he does anything wrong. His goal is the Tour rather than "stage races" and its the Schlecks' family dream. Riders target races according to their abilities. Once again, what one week (we are considering them cos he'll never start Giro or Vuelta until 2nd Tour title at least) race could Andy target to win???

Do you think Andy will win the tour?

 

[cineteq]

The Dauphine is about nothing. Certainly Andy feels a certain reserve and he would have held on in the group if it had been an important start. Being always good in the Tour he can not feel he does anything wrong. His goal is the Tour rather than "stage races" and its the Schlecks' family dream. Riders target races according to their abilities. Once again, what one week (we are considering them cos he'll never start Giro or Vuelta until 2nd Tour title at least) race could Andy target to win???

Pais Vasco, T-A, Classics...do you think him just training is going to simulate actual race conditions? How is he going to gauge his condition against his rivals? Moreover, not taking part in races doesn't help his ego/mind. Where is he going to get the confidence to win from?

His past results in the Tour were masked by his immense talent and youth. He's no longer the same person he was. Now he has to work to win, his talent is not enough anymore as it was exposed last year.

 

[El Pistolero]

If Andy wins the Tour Zam will eat my shoes.

 

[Publicus]

Clearly you missed the "Contador ALWAYS races to win" bit. And the part about Andy racing in the Ardennes.

And all season? What exactly has Alberto raced to win after the Tour? He won the Vuelta once (and that only because it was the year he missed the Tour) that I can recall. Seems to me that Contador's competitive season usually essentially stops at the end of July.

Since you keep harping on the always point, I've already identified 1 race he doesn't generally race to win (Dauphine) and one other stage race where going he said he was racing for a teammate (Levi; I can look up the race). Liege and Fleche he was in the thick of things--and certainly a protagonist of the action (not slipping off the back, coming in with peloton, etc.). But let's be gracious and say he raced neither for the win. So since 2007, that's what 4, maybe 5 races? Out of how many races? He may not ALWAYS race to win, but he's about as close to ALWAYS as you can get without unequivocally saying ALWAYS. /rant

 

[Christophe]

If Andy wins the Tour Zam will eat my shoes.

If Andy wins the Tour, I'll eat Chef Basso's shoes!