Another Clen bust - Aussie cyclist

[rgmerk]

there is at least one club in my home city that is not affiliated with CA and have huge road race fields

If it is the guy from Cootamundra, there isn't likely to be a whole lot of alternative bicycle clubs to join. We're talking a place with no more than 5,000 people in the middle of nowhere.

Furthermore, it's not just the local cycling club that will hear about it (and I doubt he'll be welcome back even when the suspension lapses), the whole town will before long.

He might have a rather unpleasant time of it.

 

[galaxy1]

yes, i heard they still have ducking stools in that part of australia, too

 

[Sasquatch]

Got my hopes up. I thought it was Evans too.

Yet again, I don't think he will be using Clenbuteral. EPO and HGH is more his style.

 

[simoni]

Got my hopes up. I thought it was Evans too.

WTF? "Got my hopes up"?!

 

[khardung la]

I am betting the sellers are from out of my country so what can the sporting bodies and feds do?

Why???How much do you want to bet with me??

 

[HoustonHammer]

Got my hopes up. I thought it was Evans too.

Yet again, I don't think he will be using Clenbuteral. EPO and HGH is more his style.

What's the source of everybody's skepticism on a$$-face? Is it just his consistency in GC finishes? Don't get me wrong, I can not stand the sight of the guy, but I wonder why so many people on here feel free to slander him.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

Don't get me wrong, I can not stand the sight of the guy, but I wonder why so many people on here feel free to slander him.

Because ACF's tears are the most delicious things in the whole universe.
________
Colorado dispensaries

 

[JPM London]

What's the source of everybody's skepticism on a$$-face? Is it just his consistency in GC finishes? Don't get me wrong, I can not stand the sight of the guy, but I wonder why so many people on here feel free to slander him.

I must admit I took a heavy dislike to the guy when in 2008 he was trailing Sastre in the Tour and still were bragging about how he would surely win it - then NOT to achieve it in the TT and THEN to basically going "Oh, it's so unfair blah-de-blah".

However, when I was trying to cheer against him and hated it when he won the worlds 09 over my favourite Spartacus, I shortly after started to appreciate him and now he's one of my favourites... Funny that

 

[battery89]

He's literally a nobody. Shows how deep doping runs. Sad.

 

[JPM London]

He's literally a nobody. Shows how deep doping runs. Sad.

Who is? The Aussie who got caught, ACF or Cuddly-bear?

 

[joe_papp]

Surely there's mixed opinions on that? Some (Joe Papp springs to mind) say it's no good, other sources say it is. It also has different levels of dosage for different outcomes. Not everyone will have the same opinion or chemical knowledge.

Just to clarify, I said you would never use it DURING the Tour, and that if, for some reason, you wanted to simulate the effects of Clen during the Tour, there were other doping products that could do so more effectively, with less side effects.

Speaking of which, I said that clen produces horrible side effects that make it undesirable for use during racing, such as severe muscle cramping and tremor.

As the transfusion theory is being developed, I fully admit that during an "off" period from racing, an athlete might utilize a dose of clenbuterol appropriate for them if they were attempting to improve their body composition. But there's no way you'd use it DURING the Tour.

 

[Benotti69]

Just to clarify, I said you would never use it DURING the Tour, and that if, for some reason, you wanted to simulate the effects of Clen during the Tour, there were other doping products that could do so more effectively, with less side effects.

Speaking of which, I said that clen produces horrible side effects that make it undesirable for use during racing, such as severe muscle cramping and tremor.

As the transfusion theory is being developed, I fully admit that during an "off" period from racing, an athlete might utilize a dose of clenbuterol appropriate for them if they were attempting to improve their body composition. But there's no way you'd use it DURING the Tour.

Joe, would a rider use it during training? If the blood was transfused because it was treated with a blood booster, EPO or Cera etc to re transfuse on a rest day, how would Clen come into that equation?

Is the cyclists blood treated in labs these days, so that when Contador might have been taking Clen when not training or racing to reduce his weight by a few kilos they took some blood to treat for the future.......

 

[dopingectomy]

Just to clarify, I said you would never use it DURING the Tour, and that if, for some reason, you wanted to simulate the effects of Clen during the Tour, there were other doping products that could do so more effectively, with less side effects.

Yep, AC has most probably a TUE for salbutamol, no good reason to use Clen.

 

[joe_papp]

Joe, would a rider use it during training?

Sure, if the rider "responded" well to Clen (meaning the drug produced desirable effects on his organism) then there's no reason to think that it wouldn't have been used during training, in controlled circumstances minus the stress of racing (not to say that the training would be easy, but just that they wouldn't have to worry about the variable of competition when managing the clenbuterol cycle).

It's a harsh product though, and causes some legitimately problematic side-effects. A rider such as Contador, who has total control over his racing program, could get away with using clenbuterol during the season, such as in a period b/w major races when he had the luxury of not having to ride any other competitions. But a domestique w/ a heavy racing schedule would have a very difficult time both tolerating clenbuterol during the meat of the season and evading detection in controls. Of course then one can argue that micro-dosing would come into play, but at that point, I'd circle back to my original argument and posit that there are other drugs that produce similar effects that could be substituted at that time.

Regardless, it's a disappointing situation and whether Contador is sanctioned or cleared, cycling doesn't win.

 

[Benotti69]

Sure, if the rider "responded" well to Clen (meaning the drug produced desirable effects on his organism) then there's no reason to think that it wouldn't have been used during training, in controlled circumstances minus the stress of racing (not to say that the training would be easy, but just that they wouldn't have to worry about the variable of competition when managing the clenbuterol cycle).

It's a harsh product though, and causes some legitimately problematic side-effects. A rider such as Contador, who has total control over his racing program, could get away with using clenbuterol during the season, such as in a period b/w major races when he had the luxury of not having to ride any other competitions. But a domestique w/ a heavy racing schedule would have a very difficult time both tolerating clenbuterol during the meat of the season and evading detection in controls. Of course then one can argue that micro-dosing would come into play, but at that point, I'd circle back to my original argument and posit that there are other drugs that produce similar effects that could be substituted at that time.

Regardless, it's a disappointing situation and whether Contador is sanctioned or cleared, cycling doesn't win.

cheers Joe,

In relation to the Clen, well Contador probably goes by what his medical team tells him...so he did not choose Clen..

 

[mitchman]

Why'd you get busted? your a Phd. in PED's...

 

[Hangdog98]

Have you noticed that nowhere in that article does it mention any testing of Mr Hines to say he took clem. No mention of if he collected the parcel from the post office. No mention of whether he paid for it with his credit card and it traced back to him. Nothing, not a sausage. It simply stated that "the substance was discovered in an airmail package addressed to Hines that was intercepted by the Australian Customs... and that Hines was the intended recipient." The article shows a picture of a syringe despite clem being most commonly administered orally and makes reference to AC who had traces found in his blood, not in his mailbox!

What a poor piece of tabloid journalism. What a kangaroo court we have here.

In 2000 I personally received notification from the Australian Customs service that they had intercepted an international package addressed to me containing a substance whose label stated that it contained Human Growth Hormone. They went on to say that it was a controlled substance and it was illegal for me to import it.

I didn't import it, order it, buy it, pay for it or make any contact with the people who sent it. I knew nothing about it until I received the notification from Customs. At the time I was training a cycling athlete who was vying for a final position on the 2000 Olympic team. Our names and contact details were published and easy to find. Our team must have given our details to a hundred people at the various European World Cup events.

At the time I thought it was a devious but brilliant strategy to get a competitor banned from Olympic selection. Simply buy some peds off the internet and send it to your competitors. The over-zealous Customs officials and the guilty-till-proven-innocent governing body will do the rest.

The really annoying part is that the product was "Human Growth Hormone releaser" with "releaser" being in tiny letters below the heading. It was a bottle of Tablets. HGH is useless when taken orally, which should have been the first clue for the Customs investigators. The actual product was a combination of two over-the-counter amino acids (L-Arginine and L-Ornithine) which when taken properly may stimulate the production of HGH from the pituitary gland during sleep. Neither are banned or controlled or illegal or on the WADA list. It could have been much worse as the Customs people were on a witch hunt that year.

I would be careful about supporting bans on athletes who have been found guilty of nothing more than being the addressee on a label. It could be you next.

 

[JPM London]

Have you noticed that nowhere in that article does it mention any testing of Mr Hines...
<snipped for brevity>

Sobering point indeed...

 

[HoustonHammer]

Have you noticed that nowhere in that article does it mention any testing of Mr Hines to say he took clem. No mention of if he collected the parcel from the post office. No mention of whether he paid for it with his credit card and it traced back to him. Nothing, not a sausage. It simply stated that "the substance was discovered in an airmail package addressed to Hines that was intercepted by the Australian Customs... and that Hines was the intended recipient." The article shows a picture of a syringe despite clem being most commonly administered orally and makes reference to AC who had traces found in his blood, not in his mailbox!

What a poor piece of tabloid journalism. What a kangaroo court we have here.

In 2000 I personally received notification from the Australian Customs service that they had intercepted an international package addressed to me containing a substance whose label stated that it contained Human Growth Hormone. They went on to say that it was a controlled substance and it was illegal for me to import it.

I didn't import it, order it, buy it, pay for it or make any contact with the people who sent it. I knew nothing about it until I received the notification from Customs. At the time I was training a cycling athlete who was vying for a final position on the 2000 Olympic team. Our names and contact details were published and easy to find. Our team must have given our details to a hundred people at the various European World Cup events.

At the time I thought it was a devious but brilliant strategy to get a competitor banned from Olympic selection. Simply buy some peds off the internet and send it to your competitors. The over-zealous Customs officials and the guilty-till-proven-innocent governing body will do the rest.

The really annoying part is that the product was "Human Growth Hormone releaser" with "releaser" being in tiny letters below the heading. It was a bottle of Tablets. HGH is useless when taken orally, which should have been the first clue for the Customs investigators. The actual product was a combination of two over-the-counter amino acids (L-Arginine and L-Ornithine) which when taken properly may stimulate the production of HGH from the pituitary gland during sleep. Neither are banned or controlled or illegal or on the WADA list. It could have been much worse as the Customs people were on a witch hunt that year.

I would be careful about supporting bans on athletes who have been found guilty of nothing more than being the addressee on a label. It could be you next.

You do realize that it wasn't road.cc that gave the guy his ban, right? And that it wasn't the author of the article that investigated him?

 

[Hangdog98]

You do realize that it wasn't road.cc that gave the guy his ban, right? And that it wasn't the author of the article that investigated him?

Well duh.

Of course I realise this. If the author (Mr MacMichael), who credits himself with being the author of this article didn't give the source its due diligence, then it was the author who also defamed Mr Hines. If the author properly researched the piece would he have used a syringe as the lead photo or was he trying to be sensational? Would he have made enquiries with Cycling Australia to find out if Mr Hines had done anything more than be the addressee on a parcel and included that in his article or did he simply copy and paste the ASADA media release? Already there are numerous forum pages commenting on his guilt as a direct result of the author's words.

Is it a "Doping Violation" to be the addressee on a package containing a banned substance?

I've been through an ASADA/Customs screw up and I've seen CA Justice "being seen to be done" so I know they're not too concerned with facts and if reporters just copy and paste the story without doing any work to uncover the truth, it becomes the truth regardless and we all suffer at the hands of the faceless bureaucrats.

We'd all better be careful that nobody sends us a parcel containing a fuse or we might just wind up in Guantanamo Bay.

 

[JPM London]

We'd all better be careful that nobody sends us a parcel containing a fuse or we might just wind up in Guantanamo Bay.

I think you risk that the second you put the words "fuse" and "Guantanamo Bay" in the same sentence. Is that your door bell ringing? Oops, no I think it's mine - and I haven't even pressed "submit" yet...

 

[D Avoid]

I must admit I took a heavy dislike to the guy when in 2008 he was trailing Sastre in the Tour and still were bragging about how he would surely win it - then NOT to achieve it in the TT and THEN to basically going "Oh, it's so unfair blah-de-blah".

However, when I was trying to cheer against him and hated it when he won the worlds 09 over my favourite Spartacus, I shortly after started to appreciate him and now he's one of my favourites... Funny that

It's very simple, we despise others who show us what we repress or hide in ourselves, especially the parts we keep from others. Every body lives a lie, then some one just come out and admit parts of it.

 

[HoustonHammer]

Well duh.

Of course I realise this. If the author (Mr MacMichael), who credits himself with being the author of this article didn't give the source its due diligence, then it was the author who also defamed Mr Hines. If the author properly researched the piece would he have used a syringe as the lead photo or was he trying to be sensational? Would he have made enquiries with Cycling Australia to find out if Mr Hines had done anything more than be the addressee on a parcel and included that in his article or did he simply copy and paste the ASADA media release? Already there are numerous forum pages commenting on his guilt as a direct result of the author's words.

Is it a "Doping Violation" to be the addressee on a package containing a banned substance?

I've been through an ASADA/Customs screw up and I've seen CA Justice "being seen to be done" so I know they're not too concerned with facts and if reporters just copy and paste the story without doing any work to uncover the truth, it becomes the truth regardless and we all suffer at the hands of the faceless bureaucrats.

We'd all better be careful that nobody sends us a parcel containing a fuse or we might just wind up in Guantanamo Bay.

To the best of my knowledge, no, it's not a doping violation to be the addressee on a package containing a prohibited substance. Unless you're the addressee because you ordered it and paid for it. In which case, yeah, it is a doping violation.

The burden of proving a violation to a hearing panel in this case was on ASADA. If they couldn't tie the package to the guy with anything more than a label, I would think that would be tricky to do. And since the hearing panel concluded that he was guilty, it seems that there was more evidence than a shipping label.

What about in your case? It sounds like you and your client were cleared after an examination of the facts. Did the system work, or are you saying you got railroaded?

I will agree with you that the piece in road.cc is not an example of the best in investigative journalism. But it seems we're talking about a club racer here, maybe the equivalent of a Cat 3 or 4 here in the States. When it comes to a knucklehead club racer getting pinched, cribbing from the presser is about all that's warranted.

 

[Hangdog98]

What about in your case? It sounds like you and your client were cleared after an examination of the facts. Did the system work, or are you saying you got railroaded?

No, I got lucky. The lab tested the pills to confirm they weren't actual HGH but legal supplements and the investigation ended there. I did receive a warning about 'importing' banned substances even though I had nothing to do with it. Had the sender chosen to send me clembuterol for example, I may have faced all sorts of sanctions.

We didn't make the 2000 Olympic team though.

 

[Chuffy]

You do realize that it wasn't road.cc that gave the guy his ban, right? And that it wasn't the author of the article that investigated him?

If the author properly researched the piece would he have used a syringe as the lead photo or was he trying to be sensational?

They use the syringe pic as a standard byline image when they cover doping stories. It would be the same image if the guy had been caught with caffeine suppositories. Thank goodness.

Like HoustonHammer says:

When it comes to a knucklehead club racer getting pinched, cribbing from the presser is about all that's warranted.