Another silly pedaling musing from me

[FrankDay]

Energy supply to the working muscle or Tim Noakes would argue a Central Governor that serves to protect us from harm.

What on earth are you talking about? What does this have to do with muscles in a series chain?

 

[Martin318is]

What on earth are you talking about? What does this have to do with muscles in a series chain?

He answered your question directly.

 

[CoachFergie]

You are arguing that muscle strength is a limit to endurance performance but this is not the case as the force's involved in the muscle are quite minimal and the capacity to work harder is easily trainable. So muscle isn't the limit. The limit is the energy supply to the working muscle.

 

[FrankDay]

You are arguing that muscle strength is a limit to endurance performance but this is not the case as the force's involved in the muscle are quite minimal and the capacity to work harder is easily trainable. So muscle isn't the limit. The limit is the energy supply to the working muscle.

The argument here is about accelerating. That is a muscle force/power issue.

 

[FrankDay]

He answered your question directly.

Yes, he did, at least as far as he understood it.

 

[CoachFergie]

The argument here is about accelerating. That is a muscle force/power issue.

Acceleration makes up 33.333% of a standing lap.
Acceleration makes up 25% of a Kilo and that is from a very experienced Kilo rider who starts conservatively.
Acceleration makes up 15% of a 4000m Pursuit again from the same very conservative starter so likely most people will spend less time accelerating in a Kilo or IP.

So in a road race or crit the percentages would be far lower. In a TT or Triathlon what do you think the percentages would be?

edit, just worked out the time spent accelerating for the above ride in a 40min criterium where the rider went for primes and won overall. A whopping 1.5% of the race time.

 

[Boeing]

I must say this is more entertaining that it is informative at this point

 

[oldborn]

I thought this is "standard" vs mid foot cleat thread, advantages or not, anecdotal evidences or just thread.
All I can see now (fargo) is mumbling about PM evidence are awesome, forces are minimal, fatigue is biochemical thing, and energy demands are crucial.
What on earth this has to do with cleats. All I can say, it is again fargo kissing Dr. Coggan ***.

Saying that max. forces are minimal (ask Cobo on Angliru), or muscles get tired not cos forces influenced (ask riders, they are prety much energy supplied while on races, and still geting tired) are just childish.
We stil do not know why muscles get tired, certainly not just cos energy supply.
Frank just ignore fargo, he will leave and we can enjoy hopefully

 

[FrankDay]

… he will leave and we can enjoy hopefully

Not while I am around, I am afraid.

 

[CoachFergie]

Don't flatter yourself Frank. I challenge the claims of many people on the topics of gimmicks, supplements, auxiliary training, training methodology, positioning and equipment selection. Even in the amusement stakes this chap Keiran on Wattage claiming that VO2 is meaningless because he won a flat race against guys lighter than him has got you beat.

 

[Boeing]

True words aren’t eloquent;
eloquent words aren’t true.
Wise men don’t need to prove their point;
men who need to prove their point aren’t wise.

Tao Te Ching verse: 81

 

[Martin318is]

and to put it another way (Frank and Fergie) if this descends any further into one of your slapfests I will step in

 

[blutto]

and to put it another way (Frank and Fergie) if this descends any further into one of your slapfests I will step in

...in my ever so humble opinion I heartily agree with your sentiments here...another juvenile slap-fest between those two is not something I'm not looking forward to....

...but here is the rub...I ,and it seems other members of this forum, are genuinely interested in some of the things Frank has to say...so while the most strait forward way of stopping another slap-fest would probably be to do something like simply closing the thread when the inevitable slap-fest goes nuclear this really does a dis-service to the folks who genuinely want to discuss these topics...of course we do not possess CoachF"%@ie's absolutely God like insight into everything but we could probably troddle along just fine in blissfull ignorance, and maybe even have a good time doing it...

...is there someway within the rules of this forum to keep that sanctimonious know-it-all out of these discussions...because as we have all seen, reasoning with this buffoon,to maybe change his tack and actually help foster an environment for discussion and not descend immediately into a thermo-nuclear debate, will not have a snowball's chance in hell of working...

Cheers

blutto

......................................................................

 

[veganrob]

Agree with blutto.

 

[CoachFergie]

Blutto, Boing and Oldcoward are on my ignore list so I assume it was another ad hominem attack at me. I suggest if you find scientific evidence so offensive you consider taking the same action. I make no apologies for my public amusement at some of the absurdities being posted here.

Anyway we now have the far more important issue of cromagnon's AM bowel movements to discuss!

 

[blutto]

Blutto, Boing and Oldcoward are on my ignore list so I assume it was another ad hominem attack at me. I suggest if you find scientific evidence so offensive you consider taking the same action. I make no apologies for my public amusement at some of the absurdities being posted here.

Anyway we now have the far more important issue of cromagnon's AM bowel movements to discuss!

...Earth to CoachieKoochie...urgent message to CoachF&%$ie...

...no one here has any issues with scientific evidence....what we do have is an issue with someone prancing around this forum as if he is a man of science when in fact his actions prove him to the ba$tard third cousin, twice removed, of science, that is, the scientific fundamentalist...

...you are no more a man of science than a astrologer is an astronomer, an alchemist is a chemist or what creationism is to evolution...you are a mere scissors and paste user of science and you only seem to use science as just another weapon in your arsenal of insults with which to bludgeon people who you either don't like or you disagree with...or to paraphrase Monty Python...its people like you wot give science a bad name......and frankly its getting pretty tiresome

...why don't you do us all a favour and start a thread called something really snappy like The Unbelievably Brilliant Wit and Wisdom of CoachF%$@ie, The Smartest Science Guy Ever and just post there...you'll have a great time with your favourite person, you, and we can get back to discuss stuff in our admittedly sometimes rambling and bumbling ways ( we're cool with that, we really are )....

...very sorry to this thread for this momentary break in the scheduled programming...we will get back to normal when this seriously annoying interference goes away...thank you for your patience in this matter...

Cheers

blutto

 

[FrankDay]

Another potential "advantage" of "arch cleats" that I didn't think of is better aerodynamics. Drew, the fellow I mentioned before that is going to try them just did. He commented: "so with the arch cleats my saddle is back down (on the b-2 the saddle was actually about 3 cm above the limit line before the arch cleats with the 115s). Now I am thinking i could lower the front end a lot more now and get very low."

Another report today from Drew, who is getting ready for the Everest Challenge and Furnace Creek 508. Since his last report he has shortened his cranks even more, to 110 mm. He did this because I told him I could provide him a pair of "racing" PC's if he could tolerate 110, since I had some around. He tried them and did ok. Here is today's report:

"130 m///le ride. El Cajon Ramona Julian Mount Laguna Pine Valley Alpine Rancho San Diego Mt Helix and home. Rode the 110mm powercranks with the arch cleats on the bulldozer. Felt good and not as tired as normal at the end."

 

[FrankDay]

For those interested in trying this but not interested in buying special shoes just to try this (but you have some old shoes around) I found this http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/labels/midsole.html

 

[FrankDay]

Drew Peterson is doing the Everest Challenge race/ride (200 miles, 28,000 ft climbing) this weekend on 110mm PowerCranks. Last year I believe he did the race on 175mm (or longer) PowerCranks. Of interest to this thread is he has also changed his cleat position and is using arch cleats. He is in the Cat5 category and last year his time was 6:42:16 for the first day and 5:05:14 for the second day giving a 11:47:30 total, winning his group and coming in 26th overall.

The race results can be found here http://www.everestchallenge.com. If you click on the current results before the race starts you will see last years results.

While it will be hard to make any specific judgments regarding cleat position because of the concomitant change in crank length also I think he made this change because he finds it less fatiguing. Perhaps if he does substantially better on the second day compared to the first, compared to his previous efforts, maybe we can draw some inferences on cleat position from this effort.

Anyhow, should give an interesting data point for this discussion.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Anyhow, should give an interesting data point for this discussion.

What was his threshold power and chronic training load before each race?

 

[CoachFergie]

Drew Peterson is doing the Everest Challenge race/ride (200 miles, 28,000 ft climbing) this weekend on 110mm PowerCranks. Last year I believe he did the race on 175mm (or longer) PowerCranks. Of interest to this thread is he has also changed his cleat position and is using arch cleats. He is in the Cat5 category and last year his time was 6:42:16 for the first day and 5:05:14 for the second day giving a 11:47:30 total, winning his group and coming in 26th overall.

The race results can be found here http://www.everestchallenge.com. If you click on the current results before the race starts you will see last years results.

While it will be hard to make any specific judgments regarding cleat position because of the concomitant change in crank length also I think he made this change because he finds it less fatiguing. Perhaps if he does substantially better on the second day compared to the first, compared to his previous efforts, maybe we can draw some inferences on cleat position from this effort.

Anyhow, should give an interesting data point for this discussion.

If he had used a power meter in both events you would have an interesting basis for comparison. As it stands all you have is one data point and hundreds of possible confounders.

 

[FrankDay]

If he had used a power meter in both events you would have an interesting basis for comparison. As it stands all you have is one data point and hundreds of possible confounders.

Well, we will be able to compare his performance to those who finished around him last year and are doing the event again this year. But, we will have what we have. There are ways of assessing this stuff that doesn't involve power you know. How on earth did Eddy Merckx ever get so good? How is it we know he was so good when I have never seen a single power file?

 

[FrankDay]

What was his threshold power and chronic training load before each race?

Are you guys afraid he is going to show a big improvement so you are trying to pre-setup your alternative explanations? Is it going to matter to you what he says?

 

[CoachFergie]

Well, we will be able to compare his performance to those who finished around him last year and are doing the event again this year. But, we will have what we have. There are ways of assessing this stuff that doesn't involve power you know. How on earth did Eddy Merckx ever get so good? How is it we know he was so good when I have never seen a single power file?

Assumes that the people around him are at the same level as they were as last year. In 2009 the NZ team won 3 medals at Junior Worlds in Moscow and on the same track this year the NZ team won 10 medals. Better result but was it a better performance. When one looks at the data the times were faster in 2009 and the temperature was lower than this year.

There are other ways just not very objective.

Eddy did produce 450 watts in the lab for 60min in Belgium after he broke the World Hour Record.

 

[CoachFergie]

Are you guys afraid he is going to show a big improvement so you are trying to pre-setup your alternative explanations? Is it going to matter to you what he says?

I think my signatures answers your question pretty well in that regard.

Power files or it's just another witty anecdote on Gimmickcranks.com.