Another U.S. Postal Rider confirms systematic doping within team - N.Y. Times

[Realist]

What does the NYTimes mean when they say "systematic doping"?

Blood transfusions? EPO? CERA? HGH? Testosterone? MicroDosing?

Would not suprise me if all 6 or more...

But if it is "only" blood transfusions, will Novitzsky have a case?

All rhetorical questions at this time....

rhetorical or hypothetical?

 

[Polish]

Because you have nothing of substance to contribute but are still compelled to say something.

Hey, it is not that easy making contributions that are "nothing of substance".
You probably do not like my taste in art either

 

[BikeCentric]

Respectfully, I don't think all this effort is being expended just to set a trap for Armstrong to lie under oath. That may be a secondary, lesser charge down the road, but they are investigating what they feel are crimes which have already been committed.

I agree, and at this point I think they are targeting people beyond Armstrong. If others have truly started talking then the dominoes are falling and Armstrong is pretty much screwed. Question is, do US Feds have authority to go after non-US citizens? I'm thinking Bruyneel, Verdruggen, Fatty Mac, and hopefully many more at the UCI as targets if so. And Rihs at BMC.

If not then I would think they'd be looking at Ochowicz, Gorski, and Weisel. Who else?

I think Armstrong looks like the obvious big target because he's by far the biggest name, but he could be just another casualty in a bigger investigation.

Am I on the right track with this line of thought? Throw me a fricken' bone here people (to quote Dr. Evil)...

 

[MacRoadie]

Chalkboard at Sheppard Mullin Richter and Hampton, listing viable Armstrong defenses.

 

[Polish]

the old grey goose is dead

rhetorical or hypothetical?

rhetorical, but don't tell MacRoadie

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Chalkboard at Sheppard Mullin Richter and Hampton, listing viable Armstrong defenses.

+1M

brilliant.

 

[QuickStepper]

Chalkboard at Sheppard Mullin Richter and Hampton, listing viable Armstrong defenses.

You know I remain skeptical, but I gotta admit, that's pretty damn funny Mac.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I get the feeling that this is last call at the Feds leniency window. If you have something to say, you'd betterhave your lawyer reaching out to them now before the window is closed.

I get that feeling too. Come out now or prepare to cop it.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I agree with Bike Centric. LA may even be a middle fish here when it comes to criminal prosecution. People like Weisel, Och, Stapleton, plus medical staff like Lim and others we don't know about in my eyes are the ones ready to take a serious fall. Lance's fall may be in his reputation, which he will fight to dismiss damming allegations to, and evidence showing he cheated and lied, the rest of his life.

 

[Cerberus]

I agree, and at this point I think they are targeting people beyond Armstrong. If others have truly started talking then the dominoes are falling and Armstrong is pretty much screwed. Question is, do US Feds have authority to go after non-US citizens? I'm thinking Bruyneel, Verdruggen, Fatty Mac, and hopefully many more at the UCI as targets if so. And Rihs at BMC.

Generally speaking countries have jurisdiction over their own territories, so if any of the above did whatever illegal acts they allegedly perpetrated in the US there might be a case. I'd be highly sceptical of any US investigation successfully prosecuting non-American UCI officials though. It's not just a matter of the US claiming authority, they also need to have the suspects extradited. That's my take, but I'm not a lawyer.

 

[Oldman]

I agree with Bike Centric. LA may even be a middle fish here when it comes to criminal prosecution. People like Weisel, Och, Stapleton, plus medical staff like Lim and others we don't know about in my eyes are the ones ready to take a serious fall. Lance's fall may be in his reputation, which he will fight to dismiss damming allegations to, and evidence showing he cheated and lied, the rest of his life.

I've been saying this going on a year but Mr. Weisel floated alot of tech IPO's to many really rich clients. Any caught out when the tech crash occurred would have long and really powerful connections. They'll make criminal examples of the smaller fry that do not cooperate and save the really good tag to hang on the biggest scumbag they can.
This guy allowed amateurs to be doped in his Park City condo while preparing for the Olympics and he was in the house. Eddie B had to lie to some of the amateurs and tell them they were getting B12. This happened beyond the 10 year statute of limitations but plays to the mindset of his sponsorship efforts.
This is not speculation, it is fact and LA lined up with the rest.

 

[Barrus]

I agree with Bike Centric. LA may even be a middle fish here when it comes to criminal prosecution. People like Weisel, Och, Stapleton, plus medical staff like Lim and others we don't know about in my eyes are the ones ready to take a serious fall. Lance's fall may be in his reputation, which he will fight to dismiss damming allegations to, and evidence showing he cheated and lied, the rest of his life.

I wonder if LA would roll over and play along, give his testimony, or if he would fight to the death, I think the latter, which would be worse for him, but probably his pride won't allow otherwise.

Generally speaking countries have jurisdiction over their own territories, so if any of the above did whatever illegal acts they allegedly perpetrated in the US there might be a case. I'd be highly sceptical of any US investigation successfully prosecuting non-American UCI officials though. It's not just a matter of the US claiming authority, they also need to have the suspects extradited. That's my take, but I'm not a lawyer.

Extradition in these cases, which would probably be fraud, money laundering and tax evasion, with most of these states, would not prove too much of a problem if the US is really interested in it, and even if they do not get an extradition they could ensure that the state of nationality begins a prosecution of the person on the basis of evidence provided for by the US. I at least looked at the extradition treatye between Belgium and the US, for an earlier thread for the answer to Bruyneel's position. If you want to know of other people, just list their countries of origin and country of residence and I'll just have a look at the appropriate treaties

 

[Benotti69]

I agree with Bike Centric. LA may even be a middle fish here when it comes to criminal prosecution. People like Weisel, Och, Stapleton, plus medical staff like Lim and others we don't know about in my eyes are the ones ready to take a serious fall. Lance's fall may be in his reputation, which he will fight to dismiss damming allegations to, and evidence showing he cheated and lied, the rest of his life.

the Uniballer might do a Landis, Dekker, Tyler, admit to doping but deny he did it during his 7 TdF wins and sell JB and everyone else down the river

 

[theswordsman]

But the indictment will be for lying to a grand jury. He has to lie to the grand jury for that to happen.

It doesn't have to be for perjury. It could be for dispensing drugs without a license, fraud, previous perjury in lawsuits, and a whole shopping list of other activities. You don't talk about the RICO act for perjury. It's like the syringes and paraphernalia found in the Astana trash at the 2009 Tour. It's illegal to have in France. There are countries where doping has been illegal, and they could piggy back off of this.

Don't forget bribes, intimidation, international trafficking. This is way bigger than trying to catch a liar in a lie.

 

[HL2037]

That brings us to the question of why would they not call this rider to testify.

Maybe this rider is not a US citizen? I wouldn't think that a foreigner could be forced to testify in an US court, or?

 

[Animal]

"Toward the end of the Tour de France, Armstrong, a seven-time winner of the event, said he would deny any involvement in doping “as long as I live.”"

'king hell!

The guy doesn't leave himself any options does he?

What's he planning? One of these "family annihilation" murder-suicide endings?

 

[Roland Rat]

"Toward the end of the Tour de France, Armstrong, a seven-time winner of the event, said he would deny any involvement in doping “as long as I live.”"

'king hell!

The guy doesn't leave himself any options does he?

What's he planning? One of these "family annihilation" murder-suicide endings?

Would you admit to deceiving and profiteering from the cancer community? In America?

Prison may be the safest place for him.

 

[Berzin]

Toward the end of the Tour de France, Armstrong, a seven-time winner of the event, said he would deny any involvement in doping “as long as I live".

I believe this was mentioned somewhere else, but this apparently is not the exact quote.

Supposedly he said that he would deny any involvement in having anything to do with forcing and/or coercing other riders to dope "as long as I live".

I agree, and at this point I think they are targeting people beyond Armstrong. If others have truly started talking then the dominoes are falling and Armstrong is pretty much screwed. Question is, do US Feds have authority to go after non-US citizens? I'm thinking Bruyneel, Verdruggen, Fatty Mac, and hopefully many more at the UCI as targets if so. And Rihs at BMC.

If not then I would think they'd be looking at Ochowicz, Gorski, and Weisel. Who else?

You forgot the guru of the whole doping program-Dr. Ferarri. If there is anyone more responsible for the procurement and administration of banned doping products at US Postal/Discovery, it's him. I too wonder if the long arm of the Feds are long enough to finally put this perverted quack out of business.

I think Armstrong looks like the obvious big target because he's by far the biggest name, but he could be just another casualty in a bigger investigation.

Am I on the right track with this line of thought? Throw me a fricken' bone here people (to quote Dr. Evil)...

Armstrong is not just a casualty. Because of his prominence and world-wide stature, he has more to lose. The other bozos, besides Bruyneel, are marginal characters in terms of public perception.

But if the Feds are looking for the dope suppliers and the money trail that follows, Armstrong may very well be in big trouble, as Landis stated that he had received banned substances directly from him.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I believe this was mentioned somewhere else, but this apparently is not the exact quote.

Supposedly he said that he would deny any involvement in having anything to do with forcing and/or coercing other riders to dope "as long as I live".

this will come down to one's definition of forcing. Is it:

A - Giving them syringes and ordering them to inject themselves or be fired, beaten etc.

B - Telling them that they won't be on the Tour squad unless they increase their haematocrits

C - Telling them that all the other teams are taking 25 injections a day, and USPS won't be able to compete without a program

D - Holding them down and injecting them personally against their will.

I think we already know that it's most likely a combination of B and C.

Fanboys and Lance himself probably prefer A and D, so he can be innocent and honest.

 

[python]

They have more powers and influence, yes. But as individuals I don't think they're any smarter or cunning than people involved in the the dark politics of pro-cycling.

objection, sir, on the hi-lighted.

at this federal level, there is not only more experience among the prosecutors and their staff but also more talent.

smarter or not, these guys are earning living by investigating powerful entities advised by high caliber attorney's. they know the legal tricks, the loopholes, the 'i don't recall' games too well.

if you get indicted in a criminal case where the standard of proof is a s high as 'beyond a reasonable doubt, you better believe these guys will come prepared.

and yes, this 'new' article has nothing new except perhaps as publicus already said, it's the last call for potential witnesses to see the writing on the wall.

 

[Animal]

Berzin, I think you pulled a quote from the wrong post. That was not me.

I'm a Brit. I wouldn't say "fricken'", I'd say fucking like any normal person.

(no probs though)

 

[galaxy1]

Americans here have amusing faith in the mighty American legal system to sort this mess out.

my superficial impression of the American legal system is about on a par with Italy's - i.e. if things go really well, there will be years of expensive legal wrangling followed by indecision/stalemate. lawyers the only beneficiaries.

then again, Italy has gone after and successfully prosecuted Italian dopers before - US teams in all sports have been fielding doped athletes for decades and they have usually been protected in the face of overwhelming evidence, see also: Carl Lewis. if half of these allegations are true, then there hasn't been a clean American GT _rider_ for decades, let alone tour winner. think on.

 

[JRTinMA]

Americans here have amusing faith in the mighty American legal system to sort this mess out.

my superficial impression of the American legal system is about on a par with Italy's - i.e. if things go really well, there will be years of expensive legal wrangling followed by indecision/stalemate. lawyers the only beneficiaries.

then again, Italy has gone after and successfully prosecuted Italian dopers before - US teams in all sports have been fielding doped athletes for decades and they have usually been protected in the face of overwhelming evidence, see also: Carl Lewis. if half of these allegations are true, then there hasn't been a clean American GT _rider_ for decades, let alone tour winner. think on.

Leaving your anti American jealousies aside there has most likely never been a clean GT rider ever.

 

[ManInFull]

the Uniballer might do a Landis, Dekker, Tyler, admit to doping but deny he did it during his 7 TdF wins and sell JB and everyone else down the river

Ha! Oh, is Landis still claiming that he wasn't doping during the 2006 TdF? I have wondered why no reporter has gotten that story out of him since he started ratting on LA.

 

[Cloxxki]

Interesting B12 reference. This is nowadays (outside professional medicin) seen as a cancer preventing, reducing, or even curing agent.

I too fear for how this will end for Lance. I consider him able to stage his own ending, and frame all his adversaries. Have you seen or read "Murder on the Orient Express"? Imagine the victim having been one step smarter than Poirot, and sucessfully framing all those who had motive.

Either way, if you're associated let alone family to the guy, your future is not to likely to be about you, at all. I sympathize with the kids.