Another U.S. Postal Rider confirms systematic doping within team - N.Y. Times

[Animal]

Leaving your anti American jealousies aside...

Loonie's discussion board ===============> http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX/Guardian Talk/USA/?14@total_freakazoids@

 

[Cobblestones]

A lot of good discussions.

One thing should be easy to confirm, which is what he said precisely:

I believe this was mentioned somewhere else, but this apparently is not the exact quote.

Supposedly he said that he would deny any involvement in having anything to do with forcing and/or coercing other riders to dope "as long as I live".

Berzin: I can't imagine that he said anything like that with all these qualifiers. It's almost as good as an admission that he doped himself, if it's formulated that way. I would doubt that anything else than a blanket denial of any doping involvement (concerning himself and forcing others to dope) might create any positive headlines for him at this point. Of course this will all come back and bite him in the a$$ when the trial has started and testimony is made public. It would probably be better to not say anything.

About the rider who has confessed but hasn't been heard by the Grand Jury. Either Novitzky has enough evidence already and doesn't need it, or maybe he's afraid the identity of the riders and/or his his testimony leaks when he's subpoenaed or maybe it is a foreign national to whom he can't serve a subpoena anyway. I think the latter makes the most sense.

I doubt it's a 'last call to come forward if you plan to sing'. I would guess that anybody who is close enough to the center of the investigation has been contacted already in person (and possibly interrogated). People on the periphery who might not have been contacted yet are too minor a catch; they likely will get immunity in exchange for truthful self-incrimating testimony even later on, if required. And it's not like that Novitzky can ask the NYT to put this exact piece in at the precise right time to produce the desired effect anyway.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Ha! Oh, is Landis still claiming that he wasn't doping during the 2006 TdF? I have wondered why no reporter has gotten that story out of him since he started ratting on LA.

He claims he wasn't knowingly using testosterone during that Tour, but admitted to blood doping.

My theory is that he was using T heavily when he drained the blood with which he transfused himself prior to Stage 17.

Either that or he was on so many different things in the final days of that Tour that he can't remember.

In light of what we are now learning about the UCI it wouldn't surprise me enormously if the T positive was actually a way for the UCI to bust him without opening up a massive can of worms about virtually undetectable blood transfusions. They must have known that Floyd was tanked up on fresh packed cells on Stage 17.

I can't see why he would deliberaly and dishonestly deny it, considering how many other admissions he has made. It's not like anyone actually thinks he won clean is it?

 

[Tim_sleepless]

A lot of good discussions.

One thing should be easy to confirm, which is what he said precisely:



Berzin: I can't imagine that he said anything like that with all these qualifiers. It's almost as good as an admission that he doped himself, if it's formulated that way.

"As long as I live I will deny that. There is absolutely no way I forced people, encouraged people, told people, helped people, facilitated ... Absolutely not. 100 percent."

It was remarked on at the time by many as interesting that he didn't deny doping himself (although I guess that could be that that wasn't the question he was asked.

 

[JRTinMA]

Loonie's discussion board ===============> http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX/Guardian Talk/USA/?14@total_freakazoids@

I see you post under Animal there too as you started the thread "Men kissing". My advice is live and let live.

 

[Race Radio]

How is a rider "Forced" to dope? It is pretty simple

During a multi day race the rider is dead from working in the wind all day. They are told to take an injection or they do not start the next day. They know that it is not just the next day they wouldn't start but any GT's later in the year.

I know four riders on Postal who were given that choice, they all took the shot.

 

[Publicus]

Here's the full quote, in context, from the AP article:

Armstrong said stories are being leaked to the media as part of an "agenda" against him and questioned the need for a federal probe.

"Would the American people feel like this is a good use of their tax dollars?" he said. "That's for them to decide."

Armstrong has said that Landis, who recently admitted to doping after years of denials, cannot be believed. He also said he didn't believe that other riders had come forward with similar allegations.

"I don't think the government will build a case on Floyd Landis," said Armstrong, who has never tested positive for use of banned substances. "His credibility left a long time ago."

Armstrong said the allegations should be investigated by the international cycling body, UCI, or the World Anti-Doping Agency.

"If you think that you have an athlete that's broken the rules - this is not baseball, this is not football ... we have a governing body to deal with that," he said. "I have had 500 (doping) controls in my day. USADA deals with that, the UCI deals with that. WADA deals with that. We have an agency to deal with that. I have no problem playing by those rules."

Armstrong repeatedly has denied any involvement in doping and reiterated that position again Wednesday.

"As long as I live I will deny that," he said. "There is absolutely no way I forced people, encouraged people, told people, helped people, facilitated ... Absolutely not. 100 percent."

ttp://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38242861/ns/sports-othersports/

 

[oldschoolnik]

New York Times Running this on Home page above the "fold"

Interesting (and devastating for Armstrong) the New York Times is now running this piece on the front page with a huge picture and a caption that says "Prosecutors may be able to corroborate use of performance-enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong, left, without relying on an account provided by Floyd Landis."

Paper of record says they don't need "crackpot" Landis to cook Lance's goose.

My Questions:
Anyone else think this case moving VERY fast all of the sudden?

What are the conversations at LiveStrong headquarters like this morning?

Why hasn't Sally Jenkins chimed in yet?

 

[Parrot23]

Atty Daly is throwing the "Scientific Evidence" card....

That is one cul-de-sac of an argument Mr. Armstrong would be wise to avoid. Armstrong better get a leash on Daly, and have sober conversation about how the "science" works.

They should call Coggan as a witness. He would be quite prepared to defend anyone and everyone (Ricco, Vino, Kash etc.) on the basis of his "professional" agnosticism of all doping related matters.

 

[Parrot23]

All he has to do is lie to the US Feds at all, Grand Jury aside.

Ponder that.

Caught in a lie. Go to jail.

It is quite a simple thing.

This is quite a new "universe" he is entering.

Cover stories on the NYT are bound to start to affect sponsors at some point. Mayby he should try Accenture?

Per Alpe's comments on going after Weisel, Och, Stapleton, plus medical staff like Lim, yes. It's ridiculous that these backroom low-lifes have been going scot free while only riders get charged. It's high time that the behind the scenes facilitators got nailed. Then we'll see how much they "love" cycling.

 

[Barrus]

Interesting (and devastating for Armstrong) the New York Times is now running this piece on the front page with a huge picture and a caption that says "Prosecutors may be able to corroborate use of performance-enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong, left, without relying on an account provided by Floyd Landis."

Paper of record says they don't need "crackpot" Landis to cook Lance's goose.

My Questions:
Anyone else think this case moving VERY fast all of the sudden?

What are the conversations at LiveStrong headquarters like this morning?

Why hasn't Sally Jenkins chimed in yet?

In the article it states the reason why it's moving so fast, it is due to the fact that there is a statute of limitation on several of the crimes, which will end by the beginning of next year, that's why they are moving so fast

Another interesting point is that on the wall street journal sports site, the blood brothers story is still prominently featured

 

[Animal]

I see you post under Animal there too as you started the thread "Men kissing". My advice is live and let live.

Errrm... no. I've never seen a poster named "Animal" there.

And anyway, are you after my arse or what? Stalking me like that. Should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[oldschoolnik]

Another interesting point is that on the wall street journal sports site, the blood brothers story is still prominently featured

Yup that's an SEO technique - people are going to "Googling" this for next few days in huge numbers - the WSJ wants to get some of that traffic. Smart IMHO.

 

[clearhop]

How is a rider "Forced" to dope? It is pretty simple

During a multi day race the rider is dead from working in the wind all day. They are told to take an injection or they do not start the next day. They know that it is not just the next day they wouldn't start but any GT's later in the year.

I know four riders on Postal who were given that choice, they all took the shot.

Hmm, interesting. Do you know if it was put in those exact terms, or if it was "just made obvious" that that was what they had to do?

 

[Cerberus]

Extradition in these cases, which would probably be fraud, money laundering and tax evasion, with most of these states, would not prove too much of a problem if the US is really interested in it, and even if they do not get an extradition they could ensure that the state of nationality begins a prosecution of the person on the basis of evidence provided for by the US. I at least looked at the extradition treatye between Belgium and the US, for an earlier thread for the answer to Bruyneel's position. If you want to know of other people, just list their countries of origin and country of residence and I'll just have a look at the appropriate treaties

Yes, I recall that, I think you posted that in reply to one of my posts. I can see extradition in cases of fraud and money laundering with Postal funds, particularly if Tailwind/Postal is registered in the US, which I would think they are. My comment was mainly in reference to UCI officials taking a bribe to cover up a positive, which is what they're accused of. I think that would fall within the jurisdiction of say Switzerland, rather than the US. I could be wrong of cause, but I think that would be stretching Novitzky's juristiction.

 

[acoggan]

They should call Coggan as a witness. He would be quite prepared to defend anyone and everyone (Ricco, Vino, Kash etc.) on the basis of his "professional" agnosticism of all doping related matters.

And yet Ross complained long-and-loud when I alluded to the general tenor of posts on this sub-forum...

As for your claim: if I were ever called as an expert witness in any doping-related court case, all I could testify to would be:

1) I have no personal knowledge as to who has or has not doped (and don't really care, at least with respect to the identity of individuals); and

2) I do not believe that it is possible to use power data (regardless of whether it is crudely estimated from VAM, or directly measured using a powermeter) to identify who is or is not doping.

Or to put it another way: **** you.

 

[Darryl Webster]

They should call Coggan as a witness. He would be quite prepared to defend anyone and everyone (Ricco, Vino, Kash etc.) on the basis of his "professional" agnosticism of all doping related matters.

Glad to see a few have picked up on that...perhaps wants to keep his future employment opertunities as broad as possible eh?

 

[VeloEcosse]

Who knows, it could be anyone. There were plenty of people who rode on Postal those years who aren't even household names... Creed, Kluck, McCarty, Barry. I imagine once the feds hear a similar story from two, three, four, five people + those testifying under oath to the grand jury like George, Tyler, et al, the case will be pretty strong. It really is just a matter of time, isn't it?

One things is for sure it is no one with a potential career left in cycling as not one directeur sportif or sponsor would touch them with a barge pole.

It is bad enough if it is true without other people wishing it so.

 

[Tim_sleepless]

As for your claim: if I were ever called as an expert witness in any doping-related court case, all I could testify to would be:

1) I have no personal knowledge as to who has or has not doped (and don't really care, at least with respect to the identity of individuals); and

2) I do not believe that it is possible to use power data (regardless of whether it is crudely estimated from VAM, or directly measured using a powermeter) to identify who is or is not doping.

It's probably not worth you setting aside too much time in your diary then.

 

[tofino]

Front page-ouch

The nytimes provides everyone with a digital image of its front page.

http://www.nytimes.com/indexes/2010/08/05/pageone/scan/index.html

So front page means they discussed and they know whats going on in depth. They want to be seen as leaders in breaking the story (not left behind by the WSJ).

Landis might have started the ball rolling but the competition between WSJ, NYT and the New York Daily News helped keep the story big news. They all want to be seen as leaders in one of the biggest sports stories this year.

I'm guessing by the WSJ should have something in a few days and I beat they're trying to get someone to go "on the record" about the doping or info from the grand jury. getting someone "on the record" would be the next level for the story for a journalist.

 

[acoggan]

Glad to see a few have picked up on that...perhaps wants to keep his future employment opertunities as broad as possible eh?

No, I just have a finally-honed sense of what's right and what's wrong (according to psychological tests, my personality type is a "Guardian-Inspector").

For example, I can recall being offended when a presenter at ACSM in the mid- to late-1990s put up a slide listing *by name* all the Dutch and Belgian cyclists who had died under somewhat mysterious circumstances when EPO use really took off. My thought at the time was "Is that really necessary?" - that is, the presenter could have made the same point w/o accussing the dead of doping when there was no evidence other than the fact that they had mysteriously died at a young age (which happens occasionally even to those who don't use drugs).

The other part of it is that, even among my fellow scientists, I have exceedingly high standards for data quality, etc., which is IMO all-too-often lacking in anti-doping efforts.

 

[acoggan]

It's probably not worth you setting aside too much time in your diary then.

Yeah, no kidding.

Besides, why would I want to involve myself in the first place? I've been an expert witness in the past, so know that it isn't worth the effort unless you have your own agenda.

 

[Parrot23]

Ha, ha, and guess who "lost" his previous position because of ethical irregularities (as is well known in the community he speaks of).

 

[Tim_sleepless]

Yeah, no kidding.

Besides, why would I want to involve myself in the first place?

To give a further boost to your sense of self-importance I'd imagine.

 

[Alan Heart]

How is a rider "Forced" to dope? It is pretty simple

During a multi day race the rider is dead from working in the wind all day. They are told to take an injection or they do not start the next day. They know that it is not just the next day they wouldn't start but any GT's later in the year.

I know four riders on Postal who were given that choice, they all took the shot.

No one close to the sport is going to buy that line of reasoning. These were professional riders fully aware of the doping programmes that went on and chose to participate in them when they joined a team like Postal. It stretches credulity to believe this would suddenly be sprung on them as a surprise in the middle of a tour. Landis himself says he first went to Bruyneel and asked to dope, nobody forced him, and he and other riders like Hamilton and Levi continued to dope when they went to other teams.

No, Armstrong maybe guilty of many things but we shouldn't pretend he somehow forced people to dope, as if nobody else had any agency. The case against him is good enough without making things up to make him look even worse. That just makes us worse than him.