Another U.S. Postal Rider confirms systematic doping within team - N.Y. Times

[sheenyp]

Yeah sure, the guy that decides who he wants to ride on the Tour team to support him might not directly tell riders that they need to dope but it could very definitely be strongly hinted at. "You wanna ride the tour support me to win and get a nice bonus, well I only need the strongest riders and right now you aren't but with a little help you could be!"
Almost certainly would be no proof available, but the amount of circumstantial evidence is piling up.

 

[python]

The nytimes provides everyone with a digital image of its front page.

http://www.nytimes.com/indexes/2010/08/05/pageone/scan/index.html

So front page means they discussed and they know whats going on in depth. They want to be seen as leaders in breaking the story.

good point. it's also accompanied by a simple and crisp heading

Cyclists Are Said to Back Claims That Armstrong Doped


impossible to miss.

lance is known for obsessive monitoring of headlines about himself

 

[Alan Heart]

I don't think they were innocent victims that would never have doped in a million years if it were not for Armstrong. Most of these riders had already doped on previous teams and continued to dope after they left Postal. What's more they could have left the team and joined another 'clean team' if they were that upset about it (if there were any clean teams in those days.)

Pretending Armstrong forced them to dope against their will is a step too far. Nobody in the sport believes this.

 

[Tim_sleepless]

lance is known for obsessive monitoring of headlines about himself

... although his mailbox is a little full these days.

 

[Anonymous]

No one close to the sport is going to buy that line of reasoning. These were professional riders fully aware of the doping programmes that went on and chose to participate in them when they joined a team like Postal. It stretches credulity to believe this would suddenly be sprung on them as a surprise in the middle of a tour. Landis himself says he first went to Bruyneel and asked to dope, nobody forced him, and he and other riders like Hamilton and Levi continued to dope when they went to other teams.

No, Armstrong maybe guilty of many things but we shouldn't pretend he somehow forced people to dope, as if nobody else had any agency. The case against him is good enough without making things up to make him look even worse. That just makes us worse than him.

-1

Guys on the bubble on that team were choosing between being a team player and being left at home with question marks clouding future employment. Did Lance and JB hold a gun to their head? Not literally....

 

[Alan Heart]

good point. it's also accompanied by a simple and crisp heading

Cyclists Are Said to Back Claims That Armstrong Doped


impossible to miss.

lance is known for obsessive monitoring of headlines about himself

Yeah the NYT has been spinning for the Feds for months with their anonymous sources. They are clearly working very closely. I think Armstrong will be very aware of this latest article.

I think he will also be scanning the sports pages of the papers today to see how his twitter ride and the news he has secured a 7 day stage mountain race for the US fans has gone down.

 

[sheenyp]

-1

Guys on the bubble on that team were choosing between being a team player and being left at home with question marks clouding future employment. Did Lance and JB hold a gun to their head? Not literally....

+1

As I said, step up to the plate, improve your performance and get a place on the tour team/contact for next year/whatever, continue to ride as you are and well it was nice knowing you ......

I'm sure that with families to feed and possibly no other offers on teh table it could be a hard choice to turn down.

If you want to beleieve that LA isn't capable of doing this then I think you are misguided and I think plenty close to the sport would go along with it.

 

[python]

i really don't understand this notion that armstrong somehow bares no responsibility for his team mates doping or that he implicitly or explicitly didn't encouraged it !

in my knowledge and the way of thinking it is the easiest hurdle for the prosecution to overcome.

from swart to frankie to even pavenage there will a line of witnesses to explain how armstrong's domineering controlling attitudes promoted doping all around him. no brainer.

 

[Alan Heart]

-1

Guys on the bubble on that team were choosing between being a team player and being left at home with question marks clouding future employment. Did Lance and JB hold a gun to their head? Not literally....

Naturally I expect there was peer pressure, but this will have come from the majority of the riders on the team - the eager dopers like Landis, Levi, Hamliton, Hincapie and the like. This was common throughout the sport. But to put this peer pressure on one man and pretend he forced people to dope is over doing it. The biggest pressure will have come from themselves - riders did it because they knew they would not be good enough to compete properly.

 

[Race Radio]

-1

Guys on the bubble on that team were choosing between being a team player and being left at home with question marks clouding future employment. Did Lance and JB hold a gun to their head? Not literally....

The guys I referred to were on the team prior to the Hog joining and the program became mandatory or as neo-pro's with limited European experience.

Wow, they are getting fast at killing BPC. He only got 4 posts out that time.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Naturally I expect there was peer pressure, but this will have come from the majority of the riders on the team - the eager dopers like Landis, Levi, Hamliton, Hincapie and the like. This was common throughout the sport. But to put this peer pressure on one man and pretend he forced people to dope is over doing it. The biggest pressure will have come from themselves - riders did it because they knew they would not be good enough to compete properly.

Have you seen the IM transcript between Vaughters and Andreu in which they discuss how Lance was telling them that "all the other teams" were taking 25 injections a day, but this was demonstrably false?

This smacks of "persuading" guys to dope through dishonesty.

add that to what Race Radio is saying about pressure plus the fact that for years no rider has ever wanted to be seen to say or do anything to pi*s Lance off. Those who did did not have a very good time of it afterwards.


I think it's fair to use the word "forced".

 

[redtreviso]

-1

Guys on the bubble on that team were choosing between being a team player and being left at home with question marks clouding future employment. Did Lance and JB hold a gun to their head? Not literally....

It wouldn't surprise me for LA to have an enforcer type under his personal employ who would be the "offer you can't refuse" offerer. The former underlings sure haven't done well out from under the LA umbrella.

 

[hiero2]

He claims he wasn't knowingly using testosterone during that Tour, but admitted to blood doping.

My theory is that he was using T heavily when he drained the blood with which he transfused himself prior to Stage 17.

Either that or he was on so many different things in the final days of that Tour that he can't remember.

In light of what we are now learning about the UCI it wouldn't surprise me enormously if the T positive was actually a way for the UCI to bust him without opening up a massive can of worms about virtually undetectable blood transfusions. They must have known that Floyd was tanked up on fresh packed cells on Stage 17.

I can't see why he would deliberaly and dishonestly deny it, considering how many other admissions he has made. It's not like anyone actually thinks he won clean is it?

Hmmmm - ya, good thinking. Could have been T in the blood, and a transfusion the night before - that would fit what we know. The UCI using that also fits. I've always conjectured that the masseuse possibly used a steroid topical the night before - perhaps even without FL's knowledge. That always seemed like a bit of a stretch, tho.

 

[NashbarShorts]

Ha! Oh, is Landis still claiming that he wasn't doping during the 2006 TdF? I have wondered why no reporter has gotten that story out of him since he started ratting on LA.

Wow, if you think Landis is claiming he rode the '06 Tour clean, you really need to educate yourself.

Interesting to see that your location is "Texas". Fan of any big cyclists from that area??

 

[hiero2]

Have you seen the IM transcript between Vaughters and Andreu in which they discuss how Lance was telling them that "all the other teams" were taking 25 injections a day, but this was demonstrably false?

This smacks of "persuading" guys to dope through dishonesty.

add that to what Race Radio is saying about pressure plus the fact that for years no rider has ever wanted to be seen to say or do anything to pi*s Lance off. Those who did did not have a very good time of it afterwards.


I think it's fair to use the word "forced".

Lance was the leader, the alpha dog in the pack. He had the power to hire and fire. That is a hell of a lot more power than peer pressure when it comes to paid work.

Doing the dope because "everybody else" is - is like the most common rationalization - "just trying to keep even". Nuts.

 

[redtreviso]

The best insurance against squealers would be to make sure everyone had their hand in the cookie jar.. Kind of like Republicans in huerhouses meeting each other. "my good friend and esteemed colleague" (wink wink)

 

[131313]

Yeah, no kidding.

Besides, why would I want to involve myself in the first place? I've been an expert witness in the past, so know that it isn't worth the effort unless you have your own agenda.

did you let "Big Eddie" know about that?

I basically agree with your point on power data, though I think you're mischaracterizing "the Australians'" point of view a little. I don't think they've ever said that power data "indicates" doping, but that it can "suggest it". Just like apparently lower powers from this year's tour "suggest" that it was cleaner.

But let's not get off the rails here, this is about Big Tex and his prison jumper...

 

[Barrus]

Yes, I recall that, I think you posted that in reply to one of my posts. I can see extradition in cases of fraud and money laundering with Postal funds, particularly if Tailwind/Postal is registered in the US, which I would think they are. My comment was mainly in reference to UCI officials taking a bribe to cover up a positive, which is what they're accused of. I think that would fall within the jurisdiction of say Switzerland, rather than the US. I could be wrong of cause, but I think that would be stretching Novitzky's juristiction.

There is a possibility within international jurisdiction customs, that allows for such a prosecution in another state, however I do not know the exact jurisdictional laws in the US, there is of course the problem that it is not known in which country the bribe has taken place. But all in all, in all probability, even if the US could assert jurisdiction, Switzerland would not be so eager to extradite its citizens, as most European states are. I would be interested to see how US law deals with employees of international organisation who take bribes. If you're interested, just let me know and I'll do a quick search for you. I don't know for certain whether I can come up with something

 

[redtreviso]

There is a possibility within international jurisdiction customs, that allows for such a prosecution in another state, however I do not know the exact jurisdictional laws in the US, there is of course the problem that it is not known in which country the bribe has taken place. But all in all, in all probability, even if the US could assert jurisdiction, Switzerland would not be so eager to extradite its citizens, as most European states are. I would be interested to see how US law deals with employees of international organisation who take bribes. If you're interested, just let me know and I'll do a quick search for you. I don't know for certain whether I can come up with something

Maybe the Patriot Act will cover it..

 

[Barrus]

Maybe the Patriot Act will cover it..

Just in case had a quick look into it, and now nothing about officials of international organisations, as I already expected
(could be otherwise with concern to money laundering)

 

[ManInFull]

Wow, if you think Landis is claiming he rode the '06 Tour clean, you really need to educate yourself.

Interesting to see that your location is "Texas". Fan of any big cyclists from that area??

Did you not read and understand what I wrote? I asked whether Landis is still claiming that he wasn't doping in 2006. I'm curious as to why a reporter hasn't gotten that story out of him. If he really wants to come clean about everything he did, then he should elaborate on what he was doing in 2006.

Yes, I do live in Texas and I am not a Lance Fanboy.

 

[hrotha]

Did you not read and understand what I wrote? I asked whether Landis is still claiming that he wasn't doping in 2006. I'm curious as to why a reporter hasn't gotten that story out of him. If he really wants to come clean about everything he did, then he should elaborate on what he was doing in 2006.

He did. No reporter has gotten that story out of him because he told it himself.

 

[gruppetto]

He did. No reporter has gotten that story out of him because he told it himself.

He has admitted to doping during the US Postal and Phonak years but claims he didn't dope in the 06' tour. Get with the program

 

[Barrus]

He has admitted to doping during the US Postal and Phonak years but claims he didn't dope in the 06' tour. Get with the program

No, he said he did dope, but he also said he did not knowingly take testosteron. And that he knew himself how implausible and unbelievable that sounded, but that that still was the truth

 

[JRTinMA]

Did you not read and understand what I wrote? I asked whether Landis is still claiming that he wasn't doping in 2006. I'm curious as to why a reporter hasn't gotten that story out of him. If he really wants to come clean about everything he did, then he should elaborate on what he was doing in 2006.

Yes, I do live in Texas and I am not a Lance Fanboy.

Landis remains steadfast in his denial that he doped using testo in the 2006 tour. He has never admitted to testo doping. He may have admitted to blood doping (packed cells xfusion) but its not clear he admitted to that specifically in the 2006 tour. If you read his statements carefully he has chosen his words very wisely. He also wants you to believe he won clean. He has only clearly admitted to doping when he was at USPS.

Now that would be an interesting list, admitted dopers who did all their winning clean. LA will admit to doping, mark my words, but he will say it was prior to cancer and everyone else is crazy.