Anti-doping scientist questions the tour has become cleaner (interview)

[IzzyStradlin]

If blood manipulation has been turned down because of the bio passport the 50% limit etc. then what are they taking to get the same boost as the early EPO days? IE blood boosting cannot account for performance increases like 1999.

Riders today are going slower than 1996-2010. That is pretty clear. But we still see a lot of riders perform at what is generally accepted as the upper limit of human performance. Now we have a 6-10 riders going like a Lemond or Hinault.

It has also been proven that the BP leaves plenty of room for doping (by guys like Puchowitz and Ashenden). And that with proper micro-dosing of EPO, timing of blood transfusions and altitude or "illness" to fudge the numbers. riders can gain significantly from doping.

Chris Horner generously showed us what one of these blood profiles looks like: Ridiculous, but legal.

I'm not sure what questions are left. Maybe there is something allowing guys to lose weight. But the old favorites are still as popular as ever. Why risk a secret drug...that might not work....that there may be a secret test for?

 

[proffate]

errrr Nutella IS chocolate

Nutella is not chocolate. It has trace amounts of cocoa but is mostly sugar, oil and hazelnuts.

 

[sniper]

Michael Rasmussen had a dig at the bio passport this week.

He says that in stead of draining 1 liter of blood one day you can drain 250 ml every five or six days over 3 weeks, and the bio passport system will not be able to detect it. Anti Doping Denmark says he is right.

http://jyllands-posten.dk/sport/cyk.../kyllingen-rytterne-kan-sagtens-vaere-dopede/
http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/article4937556.ece

He also claimed there are no tests for insulin and IGF-1, but Anti Doping Denmark says this is wrong. They have testing procedures for insulin and IGF-1 since half a year ago.

quite interesting.
herea little background on IGF-1, from 2013:

Given the lags in implementing blood testing for the drug and number of anti-aging clinics sprinkled throughout the country, Yesalis said he was far from surprised when he heard about the wave of headlines Tuesday about IGF-1.

So it seems a test does exist, but it seems very questionable that the ADO's are actually testing for it, at least not regularly.

 

[Le breton]

...

That's news! .....

To you may be, not to people who read Ross Tucker, Portoleau, etc or do their own calculations.
Keep informed.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Riders today are going slower than 1996-2010. That is pretty clear. But we still see a lot of riders perform at what is generally accepted as the upper limit of human performance. Now we have a 6-10 riders going like a Lemond or Hinault.

It has also been proven that the BP leaves plenty of room for doping (by guys like Puchowitz and Ashenden). And that with proper micro-dosing of EPO, timing of blood transfusions and altitude or "illness" to fudge the numbers. riders can gain significantly from doping.

Chris Horner generously showed us what one of these blood profiles looks like: Ridiculous, but legal.

I'm not sure what questions are left. Maybe there is something allowing guys to lose weight. But the old favorites are still as popular as ever. Why risk a secret drug...that might not work....that there may be a secret test for?

We know a few athletes are perfectly willing to do "extract of cortisone" experimental whatever.

I'd say some riders are slower. The test/HGH combo is still wide open for abuse.

It's very important to remember that a federation enables doping, not just lone athletes. The nightmare scenario has already (probably) happened in Jamaica. The nado's very few resources were used to never test positive outside Jamaica.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

We know a few athletes are perfectly willing to do "extract of cortisone" experimental whatever.

Sure, and there always will be. But if you're trying to win the Tour, that probably isn't your strategy.

 

[Master50]

50% Hct rule was introduced in 1997.

As for



The Italian OC paid Conconi to study EPO and its effect on riders - in an attempt to come up with a way of detecting EPO doping. Ferrari was a student of Conconi.

The boost from 1999 onwards was very finely tuned Hgh / test usage, coupled with EPO and blood transfusions.

If your Hct starts at 42, 49.8% Hct is a massive boost.

except a rider with a 42 cannot maintain a 49.8 and not trigger a lot of questions and a likely bio passport violation. They might maintain a 41 to 43 instead of a more normal lower number after a 3 week race? I understand that a guy with a natural 48 was not getting the benefit a natural 44 was getting at least until the bio passport was instilled. The number of riders who had "normal" blood levels very near to 50 has certainly dropped since 1997. When was the EPO test 1st used? I think this and the HC limits are twisted in my memory.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

except a rider with a 42 cannot maintain a 49.8 and not trigger a lot of questions and a likely bio passport violation. They might maintain a 41 to 43 instead of a more normal lower number after a 3 week race? I understand that a guy with a natural 48 was not getting the benefit a natural 44 was getting at least until the bio passport was instilled. The number of riders who had "normal" blood levels very near to 50 has certainly dropped since 1997. When was the EPO test 1st used? I think this and the HC limits are twisted in my memory.

Hct limits 1997
EPO test 2000 olympics

It would take more work to sustain 49.8, but it's my belief it could be done.

 

[Granville57]

except a rider with a 42 cannot maintain a 49.8 and not trigger a lot of questions and a likely bio passport violation.

But what about a rider who is 42?

 

[D-Queued]

Nutella is not chocolate. It has trace amounts of cocoa but is mostly sugar, oil and hazelnuts.

You are correct in that Nutella, and more specifically Gianduja, is mixture of hazelnuts and cocoa.

You are incorrect that it is not chocolate. It may not qualify as Belgian Chocolate, but it is chocolate.

It was invented by a Turin chocolatier as a chocolate spread, in reality a chocolate extender, in response to British blockades during the Napoleonic wars.

Dave.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

except a rider with a 42 cannot maintain a 49.8

Nobody needs to maintain a 49.8. Winning riders are going (a little) slower.

Doping is slightly different now than it was 10 years ago. I think everyone agrees on this.

 

[proffate]

You are correct in that Nutella, and more specifically Gianduja, is mixture of hazelnuts and cocoa.

You are incorrect that it is not chocolate. It may not qualify as Belgian Chocolate, but it is chocolate.

It was invented by a Turin chocolatier as a chocolate spread, in reality a chocolate extender, in response to British blockades during the Napoleonic wars.

Dave.

Nutella is not Gianduja. "An older recipe, Gianduja, was a mixture containing approximately 71.5% hazelnut paste and 19.5% chocolate."[1]

Nutella lists "fat-reduced cocoa powder" at 7.4% of the weight of the product.[2] So Nutella contains a small amount of an industrially processed cocoa derivative, which has had most of the cocoa butter removed.

Once again, Nutella is not chocolate.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutella
[2] http://foodwatch.com.au/images/stories/expert-advice-labelling/nutella_jar_ingredients.jpg

 

[Taxus4a]

Interview with anti-doping scientist Carsten Lundby, Proffessor, Institute of Physiology, Zürich

TV-interview conducted by Stéphanie Surrugue at La Planche des Belles Filles, 14th of July, 2014. Transcript from TV2, translated from Danish, slightly abridged.

A: I'm sure the anti-doping work has limited the use of EPO, but the performances of the riders hasn't diminished. It's a bit strange that today's riders are producing the same amount of watts as Lance Armstrong. And we know that blood doping or EPO increases the performances significantly.

That is not true, he must look at Hautacam, for instance, and in general to most of the big climbs...there is a big difference than in the EPO era, and when is similar in a climb, there is an explanation...

Anyway, training in altitude afect, as well as other advances, so to do similar watts than Lance wouldnt be so amazing nowadays.

But it is not true, there is still a clear difference, Riis did in Hautacam 3 minutes less than a soberbious Nibali, without rival.

He talk without a good analysys, maybe he knows a lot about medicine, but not about cycling conditions.

 

[Taxus4a]

Is there (significant) change/new insights between 2000-2014 on training/nutrition?

A big difference between 2008 and 2012.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Nutella is not Gianduja. "An older recipe, Gianduja, was a mixture containing approximately 71.5% hazelnut paste and 19.5% chocolate."[1]

But it tastes so good!!

It's a miracle. If a jar of that stuff lasts a week at my place.

I'm sorry you don't believe in Nutella.

 

[blackcat]

You are correct in that Nutella, and more specifically Gianduja, is mixture of hazelnuts and cocoa.

You are incorrect that it is not chocolate. It may not qualify as Belgian Chocolate, but it is chocolate.

It was invented by a Turin chocolatier as a chocolate spread, in reality a chocolate extender, in response to British blockades during the Napoleonic wars.

Dave.

you need to take this up with David Walsh.

 

[blackcat]

But it tastes so good!!

It's a miracle. If a jar of that stuff lasts a week at my place.

I'm sorry you don't believe in Nutella.

you wont get that job as a swannie at sky you hoped for.

there might be a position as motoman if you can master a plummy nosed accent and the isle of man motobike tt

 

[blackcat]

^plummy voiced.

but plummy nosed and ruddy faced can work too

 

[python]

pls, pardon my disjointed and misplaced contribution after many, many months ignoring the clinic...i did read the interview in its original. as far as i can say, the op's interpretation is good.

does it mean the antidoping scientist added new understanding to the current state of doping in cycling ?

not imo.

 

[blackcat]

pls, pardon my disjointed and misplaced contribution after many, many months ignoring the clinic...i did read the interview in its original. as far as i can say, the op's interpretation is good.

does it mean the antidoping scientist added new understanding to the current state of doping in cycling ?

not imo.

yep, nuffin changes. the scientist offers some expert layperson pov. yes, contradiction there intentionally.

 

[Gavandope]

That is not true, he must look at Hautacam, for instance, and in general to most of the big climbs...there is a big difference than in the EPO era, and when is similar in a climb, there is an explanation...

Anyway, training in altitude afect, as well as other advances, so to do similar watts than Lance wouldnt be so amazing nowadays.

But it is not true, there is still a clear difference, Riis did in Hautacam 3 minutes less than a soberbious Nibali, without rival.

He talk without a good analysys, maybe he knows a lot about medicine, but not about cycling conditions.

Riis didn't climb tourmalet first plus blood doping is about how long you can sustain those high power outputs for. Now instead of Borg outputs of the EPO unleashed era we have suspicious climbs like Nibali who seemed more chilled than a rasta living in a weed forest doing it.

 

[King Boonen]

...more chilled than a rasta living in a weed forest...

That's just made my day