ARD link Kittel to German blood doping investigation

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Mar 4, 2010
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Cloxxki said:
1) irrelevant. Smoking pot doesn't make you a fast track runner or cyclist either. Get caught with it in your blood, though...
I know and I think that's wrong. An athlete who smokes pot is no cheater (at least not by smoking pot) and should not be treated as such.
 
May 26, 2010
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Tyler'sTwin said:
No, intention to use banned substances/methods is a bannable offence. Every athlete wants to enhance his/her performance whether it's by training, diet or whatever. There's no indication that Kittel et al were looking for performance enhancement, nor does it matter. The relevant questions should be:

1) Does it actually enhance performance?
2) Is it an unfair means of performance enhancement?

The answer to the latter should certainly be "yes", if it can be shown that UV-light magically increases O2 capacity, but I very much doubt that it does. It is evident that this is just a case of mindless "zero tolerance". Especially if you're considered a blood doper just for extracting a syringe of blood and shooting it back X minutes later.
If this answer is 1) then Kittel is an idiot.

If the answer is 2) then Kittel is an idiot and a doper.

But trying to dope in my opinion is a ban. Basso got banned for trying to dope, even though he claims he didn't.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
If this answer is 1) then Kittel is an idiot.

If the answer is 2) then Kittel is an idiot and a doper.

But trying to dope in my opinion is a ban. Basso got banned for trying to dope, even though he claims he didn't.
You are confusing the issues. Basso was banned for "trying" to use an illegal method. Kittel, on the other hand, did not try to use an illegal method, he either used it or he didn't, depending on whether it was banned or not. I'm questioning whether it should be illegal and whether Kittel deserves to be labeled a doper for having some blood irradiated.

And I don't think Kittel is an idiot if the official story is true. I think most young athletes would trust the doctor in that situation.
 
May 26, 2010
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Tyler'sTwin said:
You are confusing the issues. Basso was banned for "trying" to use an illegal method. Kittel, on the other hand, did not try to use an illegal method, he either used it or he didn't, depending on whether it was banned or not. I'm questioning whether it should be illegal and whether Kittel deserves to be labeled a doper for having some blood irradiated.

And I don't think Kittel is an idiot if the official story is true. I think most young athletes would trust the doctor in that situation.
Ah c'mon. This is pro cycling, a doctor says we are gonna take blood out of you to treat it? alarms bells should be going off that is illegal, transfusions and needles are illegal remember?

Kittel was trying to Performance enhance. I would love to remember an official athletes story of why, what, when where and how they were caught in the act that was actually true.

Kittel should receive a ban for try to performance enhance. It may not be chemical doping but it is trying to enhance his blood to get a better performance and advantage over others and that is against the rules.

Stopping trying to split the minutest of hairs.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
Ah c'mon. This is pro cycling, a doctor says we are gonna take blood out of you to treat it? alarms bells should be going off that is illegal, transfusions and needles are illegal remember?

Kittel was trying to Performance enhance. I would love to remember an official athletes story of why, what, when where and how they were caught in the act that was actually true.

Kittel should receive a ban for try to performance enhance. It may not be chemical doping but it is trying to enhance his blood to get a better performance and advantage over others and that is against the rules.

Stopping trying to split the minutest of hairs.
The medical center carries the olympic name. Can an athlete depend on the German Olympic Association to have his/her back, or guarantee legality of treatments for athletes?
What would a patient in need of medical care do at an Olympic center? If I were in medical need, dragging myself to a doctor, I would go right by there front door to reach a reach hospital.
 
Sep 17, 2010
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craig1985 said:
Seems like a weird thing to do with a UV light, I mean my treatment for the flu is to go to the doctor and he writes me up a script and I go to the chemist and get my medicine. Even if they didn't do anything wrong, still seems bizarre.
The point is, pretty much any medicine for flu you get by your doctor is on prohibited list for profi athletes. My close friend is a white water kayak racer and when she gets flu, she has to stick to hot tea, lemon and honey. Even paracetamol (=Advil) is out of for her; most of the "flu fighter mix" we can take like Coldrex and what ever the name can be contain some derivate of ephedrine or similar prohibited drug.
So I am not surprised if Kittel went to doctor he belonged to without questioning and agreed with procedure he was thinking was OK by then - it was on the end "The Doctor" Kittel was supposed to go to if any health troubles will appear and rightly Kittel would think the doctor shall be aware of all anti-doping rules and possible acceptable treatment.
If I would be in Kittel´s skin, I would agree too (in 2008).
 
Cloxxki said:
The medical center carries the olympic name. Can an athlete depend on the German Olympic Association to have his/her back, or guarantee legality of treatments for athletes?
Obviously not in this case. Assuming that it happened as we've been told

Cloxxki said:
What would a patient in need of medical care do at an Olympic center? If I were in medical need, dragging myself to a doctor, I would go right by there front door to reach a reach hospital.
Actually a lot of athletes and professional sportspeople only use their association or team doctors, because these people know (or are supposed to know) how the rules work. For example, what you can prescribe for an athlete with asthma that's within the rules and what paperwork you need to do along with it. Friend of mine was a professional sports person and even when she needed to go to hospital with a broken bone in her foot the team doctor went with her to discuss treatment options. I understand that's not uncommon.
 
Benotti69 said:
Ah c'mon. This is pro cycling, a doctor says we are gonna take blood out of you to treat it? alarms bells should be going off that is illegal, transfusions and needles are illegal remember?

Kittel was trying to Performance enhance. I would love to remember an official athletes story of why, what, when where and how they were caught in the act that was actually true.

Kittel should receive a ban for try to performance enhance. It may not be chemical doping but it is trying to enhance his blood to get a better performance and advantage over others and that is against the rules.

Stopping trying to split the minutest of hairs.
1. Needles weren't illegal at the time Kittel took the treatment.
2. The treatment itself wasn't even illegal at that time.
3. Getting an advantage over others is not against the rules, that's what sport is about and advantages are gained by training, diet, mentality etc. By your logic, eating vitamins should be illegal.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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maltiv said:
1. Needles weren't illegal at the time Kittel took the treatment.
2. The treatment itself wasn't even illegal at that time.
3. Getting an advantage over others is not against the rules, that's what sport is about and advantages are gained by training, diet, mentality etc. By your logic, eating vitamins should be illegal.
> 1. and 2.
Blood transfusions, also autologous, were illegal already if I'm not mistaken. Even if needles weren't prohibited per say, it doesn't make all needlework okay.
 
May 26, 2010
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maltiv said:
1. Needles weren't illegal at the time Kittel took the treatment.
2. The treatment itself wasn't even illegal at that time.
3. Getting an advantage over others is not against the rules, that's what sport is about and advantages are gained by training, diet, mentality etc. By your logic, eating vitamins should be illegal.
Since when did blood transfusions come under training, mentality or diet?

Getting an advantage should only be about training, diet and mentality couples with NATURAL talent?
 
Cloxxki said:
> 1. and 2.
Blood transfusions, also autologous, were illegal already if I'm not mistaken. Even if needles weren't prohibited per say, it doesn't make all needlework okay.
Not this procedure, which is by no means a regular transfusion. A small amount of blood is taken out and in again after a couple of minutes. At least most expert say that this wasn't illegal at the time.

Blood transfusion is something completely different and is about taking out blood and inserting it some time later, which is performance enhancing and illegal. Taking out a couple of cl of your own blood and inserting it again straight away obviously doesn't enhance performance.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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maltiv said:
Not this procedure, which is by no means a regular transfusion. A small amount of blood is taken out and in again after a couple of minutes. At least most expert say that this wasn't illegal at the time.

Blood transfusion is something completely different and is about taking out blood and inserting it some time later, which is performance enhancing and illegal. Taking out a couple of cl of your own blood and inserting it again straight away obviously doesn't enhance performance.
Yeah, it's something I'll trust a sports doc and his rider for on their word. Just that they refer to this existing procedure doesn't make it all OK.
It appears Pechstein didn't even feel it was OK? But only saw indirect references to her apparently having been phone tapped to say such.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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maltiv said:
Not this procedure, which is by no means a regular transfusion. A small amount of blood is taken out and in again after a couple of minutes. At least most expert say that this wasn't illegal at the time.

Blood transfusion is something completely different and is about taking out blood and inserting it some time later, which is performance enhancing and illegal. Taking out a couple of cl of your own blood and inserting it again straight away obviously doesn't enhance performance.
Obviously not, but I'm not sure that will stop the authorities from labeling it blood doping anyway. Who cares if an alleged doping practice is performance enhancing or does jack squat, right? :rolleyes:
 
Benotti69 said:
Since when did blood transfusions come under training, mentality or diet?

Getting an advantage should only be about training, diet and mentality couples with NATURAL talent?
I'm not talking about transfusions though, I'm just saying that just because something is performance enhancing (of course, this UV method isn't even proven to be so) that doesn't mean it's illegal or morally dubious. If you can't see the difference between this procedure and regular blood transfusions then you should look it up...
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Cloxxki said:
Yeah, it's something I'll trust a sports doc and his rider for on their word. Just that they refer to this existing procedure doesn't make it all OK.
It appears Pechstein didn't even feel it was OK? But only saw indirect references to her apparently having been phone tapped to say such.
Have the authorities claimed they were actually doing proper transfusions? No, all we hear is UV-irradiation.
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
Obviously not, but I'm not sure that will stop the authorities from labeling it blood doping anyway. Who cares if an alleged doping practice is performance enhancing or does jack squat, right? :rolleyes:
They already have labeled it as blood doping, as it should be. They can't do that on a retrospective basis though, obviously. Would be quite silly if alcohol became illegal today and you got arrested for consuming alcohol 4 years ago :)
 
May 26, 2010
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maltiv said:
Not this procedure, which is by no means a regular transfusion. A small amount of blood is taken out and in again after a couple of minutes. At least most expert say that this wasn't illegal at the time.

Blood transfusion is something completely different and is about taking out blood and inserting it some time later, which is performance enhancing and illegal. Taking out a couple of cl of your own blood and inserting it again straight away obviously doesn't enhance performance.
What is considered a small amount and have they evidence of how much was taken out and re-infused?

All screams of trying to dope by methods not yet 'banned'.
 
Benotti69 said:
What is considered a small amount and have they evidence of how much was taken out and re-infused?

All screams of trying to dope by methods not yet 'banned'.
The amount is completely irrelevant if it's inserted again straight afterwards. Why would that help? :p
 
May 26, 2010
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maltiv said:
<snip>

Would be quite silly if alcohol became illegal today and you got arrested for consuming alcohol 4 years ago :)
Depends on the reason for consuming the alcohol. ;)
 
Oct 16, 2010
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don't have the original source, but according to this article Kittel is planning to 'air' his discomfort wrt Alberto Contador at the starts of races where both are starting.

Kittel kündigte sogar an, dass er seinen Unmut über den Doping-Rückkehrer Alberto Contador bei gemeinsamen Starts deutlich machen werde.
http://www.mittelhessen.de/sport/weltsport/weltsport-radsport_artikel,-Nach-Armstrong-Wird-jetzt-alles-anders-_arid,77768.html


Will these turn out to be empty words from Kittel, or is he going to turn them into deeds? What could such a symbolic protest look like?
Is he gonna jump around in front of the peloton with a "Contador is a doper" T-shirt?
Clearly he'll need some allies in order for any action to be taken seriously.

In any case it is going to be interesting to see how united the peloton will be, or whether we're going to see rebellious (clean?) fractions airing their discomfort.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Of all those guys that say they belong to a 'new generation', Kittel (okay, Phinney too) is by far the most believable.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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GazelleFormula said:
Of all those guys that say they belong to a 'new generation', Kittel (okay, Phinney too) is by far the most believable.
hilarious, considering earlier in this topic almost all already condemned kittel because of that ard piece :eek: you guys are hilarious, without a shred of avidence you believe all
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
hilarious, considering earlier in this topic almost all already condemned kittel because of that ard piece :eek: you guys are hilarious, without a shred of avidence you believe all
Who are "you guys"? Becuase that's Gazelle's first post in this thread (hadn't even registered when the thread was started). If you re-read the thread, what you'll see is mostly people changing their perceptions as more data became available.
 

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