ARD link Kittel to German blood doping investigation

[sniper]

Have you ever met an 18 year old bike racer? By and large they're pretty dumb. My limited understanding of the UV blacklight procedure is that it's just quacky medicine, not doping. Who knows, maybe he was sent out with the whole white lunch bag of goodies, too.

fair enough. to be sure, i certainly don't think he went to Freiburg with the intention to dope or cheat. no cheating intentions.
he should've gone to a normal doc (an old school Hausartzt) though.
as e.g. benotti69 has pointed out on several occasions, there are very few physical shortcomings for which a normal doc/hausartzt wouldn't be good enough.

but I agree with you we can't really blame kittel for going to Freiburg if he was recommended to go there.
I guess i'm just pointing out the general naivity among cyclists and by extension their readiness to undergo dodgy treatment.
the physio or team doctor says jump, they say how high.

 

[kingjr]

I'll say it again, UV-light treatment was for illness, not for doping. It was "advertized" on the doctor's homepage as one of the things he does. No reason for the doctor not to give an athlete that treatment if he thinks it might help and is sure he is not violating any rules. This is not a story about secret bloodbags in a gynaecologists refrigerator.

Quacky medicine, yes. Doping, no.

@sniper am i missing something or why do you keep talking about Freiburg? Franke works in Erfurt.

 

[sniper]

@sniper am i missing something or why do you keep talking about Freiburg? Franke works in Erfurt.

thanks kingjr.
indeed I meant erfurt. important detail. sloppy journalism from my part.

 

[kingjr]

thanks kingjr.
indeed I meant erfurt. important detail. sloppy journalism from my part.

Ok. That would have been indeed a bit strange if he travelled across half of Germany to visit that doctor Erfurt on the other hand is just 20k away from Arnstadt, where he was born and still lives.

 

[sniper]

as for doping vs. quacky medicine:

http://www.fr-online.de/sport/dopin...en--wir-es-fuer-doping-,1472784,16602774.html

Staatsanwalt Hannes Grünseisen sagt es so: „Es lag kein subjektiver Tatbestand vor. Objektiv halten wir es für Doping.“ Und zwar für klares Blutdoping, verboten seit vielen Jahren.

Die Brisanz der Methode entging den Sportlern nicht. Schon in jenem Telefonat, das die Ermittler auf Frankes Spur brachte, fiel das D-Wort. Einige der dabei gewählten Attribute für das Gepansche: „abartig“, „absolut krass“. Und weiter: „Das ist ja auch irgend ’ne Art von Doping.“ Die andere Gesprächspartnerin war sich da sogar sicher: „Klar, alles was mit’m Blut irgendwie passiert.“

Wie aber hält man es sportjuristisch mit den 14 Mehrfach-Fällen? Zum Beispiel mit dem Rad-Profi Patrick Gretsch, der in vier Jahren sein Blut 27-mal bestrahlen ließ – und vor einer Woche beim Prolog der Tour de France als Siebter einrollte? Und was kreuzten Frankes Patienten eigentlich bei Bluttests an? Auf den Nada-Kontrollbögen wird seit 2005 nach jeglicher Bluttransfusion im Sechsmonatszeitraum vor dem Test gefragt.

fazit: some (like Gretsch) definitely went their in an attempt to enhance their performance, and perhaps that's why Kittel was recommended to go there.
By the way, who said Kittel went there because he was sick? Kittel himself?
He and Gretsch suffering from the same illness? Could be, but certainly dodgy. They knew bloodtransfusions were illegal and apparently most athletes who went there knew this treatment was dodgy.

 

[sniper]

by the way, gretsch, kittel and degenkolb all went there, knowing very well that bloodtransfusions were illegal.
all suffering from the same illness?

 

[kingjr]

as for doping vs. quacky medicine:

http://www.fr-online.de/sport/dopin...en--wir-es-fuer-doping-,1472784,16602774.html





By the way, who said Kittel went there because he was sick? Kittel himself?

Yes, as far as i recall.

They knew bloodtransfusions were illegal

Franke told him that it's legal unless less than 50ml is injected. So in fact they did not know this particular method was illegal.

and apparently most athletes who went there knew this treatment was dodgy.

Which is why he stopped it in 2008, of his own accord.
Dodgy and illegal are 2 different things.

 

[sniper]

Yes, as far as i recall.

ok, so the source for all Kittel-friendly arguments was Kittel himself?
not very convincing.

Franke told him that it's legal unless less than 50ml is injected. So in fact they did not know this particular method was illegal.

regardless of what Franke told him, as of 2005 the NADA has a questionnaire for pro-athletes where they are asked about bloodtransfusions. It doesn't say "bloodtransfusions up to 50ml", obviously.

Which is why he stopped it in 2008, of his own accord.
Dodgy and illegal are 2 different things

agreed on this point.

 

[kingjr]

ok, so the source for all Kittel-friendly arguments was Kittel himself?
not very convincing.

He is the only source so far.
And I think (I can't find the video anymore) when his father gave a very short interview to german media during this years Tour he was asked a very general question about his son's career and character, and I believe in that context he mentioned that his son used to be ill quite often in his earlier career. But that's really vague on my part.

regardless of what Franke told him, as of 2005 the NADA has a questionnaire for pro-athletes where they are asked about bloodtransfusions. It doesn't say "bloodtransfusions up to 50ml", obviously.

To pro-athletes only? Was Kittel even a pro-athlete between 2005 and 2008?
And is this UV-treatment even a bloodtransfusion by definition?

 

[sniper]

...
o pro-athletes only? Was Kittel even a pro-athlete between 2005 and 2008?
And is this UV-treatment even a bloodtransfusion by definition?

bottom line is that these guys (and their parents for that matter) should have known that between 2005 and 2008 messing around with blood was illegal.
and gretsch went their 27 times in 4 years. (see the article i linked earlier).
if you ask me he went there to enhance his performance. subsequently, it's not unthinkable that he recommended kittel to go there and try it out as well.
if gretsch's intentions were to dope (and it looks like that), it reflects unfavorably on kittel, especially if kittel's alleged illness hasn't been confirmed by anyone other than his dad (who should have sent him to a normal doc anyway).

 

[kingjr]

bottom line is that these guys (and their parents for that matter) should have known that between 2005 and 2008 messing around with blood was illegal.

I don't agree.

and gretsch went their 27 times in 4 years. (see the article i linked earlier).
if you ask me he went there to enhance his performance. subsequently, it's not unthinkable that he recommended kittel to go there and try it out as well.

Not unthinkable (nothing is unthinkable) but highly speculative. And I don't think it's likely. But that's just my opinion.

 

[sniper]

I don't agree.Not unthinkable (nothing is unthinkable) but highly speculative. And I don't think it's likely. But that's just my opinion.

fair enough!
if kittel wins his fourth in paris we'll talk again.

 

[enCYCLOpedia]

For once, I'll post in the clinic in defense of a rider. I don't know if Kittel is doped, but others are to blame for the Erfurt disaster. The doctor in this case, Andreas Franke (not to be confused with Werner Franke), was an official doctor of the "Olympiastützpunkt" Erfurt, which is part of the federally funded German elite sports system. Marcel Kittel was a minor at the time (2008), and had every reason to trust that what this doctor was doing was legal.

The case (not because of Kittel, but because of the number of athletes involved and the amount of time it was allowed to continue) does represent a major scandal for German sports, one that the German National Anti Doping Agency (NADA) tried to keep under the rug for a long time, and where even WADA has been changing its position.

However, I would not be suspicious of Kittel because of his involvement in it. Whatever he did at the time (or rather, what was done to him), has nothing to do with the performances he's been showing recently, irrespective of whether they are clean or not.

 

[sniper]

For once, I'll post in the clinic in defense of a rider. I don't know if Kittel is doped, but others are to blame for the Erfurt disaster. The doctor in this case, Andreas Franke (not to be confused with Werner Franke), was an official doctor of the "Olympiastützpunkt" Erfurt, which is part of the federally funded German elite sports system. Marcel Kittel was a minor at the time (2008), and had every reason to trust that what this doctor was doing was legal.

The case (not because of Kittel, but because of the number of athletes involved and the amount of time it was allowed to continue) does represent a major scandal for German sports, one that the German National Anti Doping Agency (NADA) tried to keep under the rug for a long time, and where even WADA has been changing its position.

However, I would not be suspicious of Kittel because of his involvement in it. Whatever he did at the time (or rather, what was done to him), has nothing to do with the performances he's been showing recently, irrespective of whether they are clean or not.

+1

to be sure, i just read up on it and learnt that kittel stopped the treatments on his own request in 2008, which, if true, is obviously a good sign.
the only problem is still that kittel himself is the only source for all this info.
but as it stands, indeed it very much seems that kittel carries no blame in this case. (wrt patrick gretsch I'm less convinced)

 

[blackcat]

Given cycling's history, that's a totally reasonable position. I guess the tough thing is "proving you wrong". I mean, pretty much the only way to demonstrate that you're clean is by going really slow! As far as Kittel goes, only he knows for sure, and if he is clean, he can be happy with that.

While I don't know anyone is clean besides myself, I belief Tuft is riding clean, so I thought that him busting out a top 10 in the TT was a good sign. That said, in reality that time in a dope-free field probably should have put him on the podium. So, I'm not really sure how good a sign that is. It meets the Vaughters test, "well, you can be competitive clean". But top 10 isn't the podium...

exactly, its a no win position. i admit that. i have gone thru my 9 step program of cycling dopage, and this is how i came out.

it can be a little more nuanced. ie. non-twitter character restricted.

domestic America, domestic Australia. are not in this (my position) dragnet. domestic Britain/Ireland. i also concede jv has done something to reverse an entrenched culture (took me a while to come to this position). and things are better. better than what tho?

I am not denying one's liberty, and i do not see it as a crime nor fault of character. So, in my eyes, it is not a defamation. think there is a Graham Greene quote about things being as they are, not as we prefer. but my memory is not that gud

 

[Kender]

argos-shimano-from-plucky-underdogs-to-major-tour-de-france-team

We put so much new science and out of the box thinking into this with a lot of analysis of where and how we could improve

new science = new doping method? they really shoudl watch what they say more carefully hehe

 

[BroDeal]

argos-shimano-from-plucky-underdogs-to-major-tour-de-france-team

new science = new doping method? they really shoudl watch what they say more carefully hehe

Impossibru! Only Sky uses science.

 

[blackcat]

Impossibru! Only Sky uses science.

i thought that was richard dawkins

 

[EnacheV]

Give the guy a fing break, for some ancient history centuries ago (from a human lifespan pov reported to historical time), everyone can have the time of his life at a point.

And for only 50 meters of going hard, form of the moment can make a big difference.

 

[l.Harm]

Actually they're using statistics to determine the best role of every rider in the sprint train. For example Kittel gets by far most of his wins in stages with less than 500 meters elevation (okay you don't need statistics for that). But also to see how many meters one can go full gas at what speed. Normally you'd expect Degenkolb to lead-out Kittel, but somehow he's the 3rd one in the train. Probably they've good reasons to do this.

 

[sniper]

interview with german doping researcher
http://www.t-online.de/sport/id_726...on-im-spitzensport-traum-fuer-kriminelle.html

- questions ARD decision to stop broadcasting Tour de France whilst continuing to broadcast other obviously doped sports.

- doesn't believe in the alleged change of culture/mindset in cycling or among german cyclists.

- questions relatively sudden British dominance in cycling
"somebody has to explain to me how that works"

He says that clean cyclists who really want to show they're clean c/should bring about some organized form of protest. After all,

history has shown that TdF cyclists can organize protest when they really don't like something. Which is what they did in the 1998 TdF. Only then they sympathized with the dopers and doping teams. Since then I am waiting in vain for a signal that something has change.

 

[Bronstein]

Sounds like another pseudoscientist out to make a name for himself by generating controversy.

 

[neineinei]

What might Sir Bradley Wiggins and Sir David Brailsford have to say to that one from Prof. Dr. Dr. Perikles Simon?

 

[blackcat]

interview with german doping researcher
http://www.t-online.de/sport/id_726...on-im-spitzensport-traum-fuer-kriminelle.html

- questions ARD decision to stop broadcasting Tour de France whilst continuing to broadcast other obviously doped sports.

- doesn't believe in the alleged change of culture/mindset in cycling or among german cyclists.

- questions relatively sudden British dominance in cycling
"somebody has to explain to me how that works"

He says that clean cyclists who really want to show they're clean c/should bring about some organized form of protest. After all,

we dont want radcliffe bs protests epo cheats out


good grief

 

[sniper]

What might Sir Bradley Wiggins and Sir David Brailsford have to say to that one from Prof. Dr. Dr. Perikles Simon?

btw, also like how he criticizes the exit clause ARD now have with ASO which gives them the right to step out of the deal in case of a new doping scandal.
I mean, how can such a clause provoke anything other than doping cover-ups?
completely ridiculous.

we dont want radcliffe bs protests epo cheats out
good grief

my thoughts exactly