Bavarianrider said:
Does not agree with what the lab, Matschiner and the austrian NADA said about the clientel.
See my posts above.
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Does not agree with what the lab, Matschiner and the austrian NADA said about the clientel.
See my posts above.
Tyler'sTwin said:
I assume German biathletes were involved, not football players. But they are protected by German politcs. Why do you think the German names disappereared?
Plausible if it doesn't work - the three known are just what the statistical sample producesBavarianrider said:
Spekenbrink confirms Kittel visisted Dr Franke
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/spekenbrink-confirms-kittel-visisted-dr-franke
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/spekenbrink-confirms-kittel-visisted-dr-franke
Zam_Olyas said:
“It’s a treatment when people are sick, but I’m not an expert.”
No way he'll get away with that story
Bavarianrider said:
They were not involved. There is no reason for the austrian lab to go out of their way to deny rumours about germans visiting the lab while remaining silent about rumours of dutch, russian, italian danish etc athletes and admitting to doping austrians. There is no reason for the austrian anti doping agency to deny that any german was under investigation while stating that they were investigating athletes from the Netherlands, Denmark, Russia, Austria etc and naming them. There is no reason for Matschiner to talk about Humanplasma clients from Italy, Russia, Austria, the Netherlands etc, but lie and claim that no german athlete ever visited the lab.
Furthermore, when all the sources mentioned above (the lab, Matschiner, austrian anti-doping) and the ARD, claim there were about 30 athletes involved and we can identify a majority of them and know we're missing ~10 cyclists/rowers and at least one runner, the list you posted does not add up. Regardless of whether those guys are dirty or clean.
Bavarianrider said:
Nah seems plausible. First thing my GP does when I'm ill is divert my veins via a UV lamp.
So we now Schuhman, Beckford and Pechstein are number 26-28 on the list. So it seems as if the list is ordered by age.
Kittel is number 14 on the list. So 14 on the list are older then Kittel while 13 are younger.
Kittel is number 14 on the list. So 14 on the list are older then Kittel while 13 are younger.
Yeesh. 13 younger.
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=13405
One of them is probably this guy.
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=13405
One of them is probably this guy.
Kittel will walk if it is a valid medical treatment and they can only prove he has taken it once while visiting a doctor for having flu. His credibility might be damaged, but hey, he can eat a freaking UV-lamp for all I care, currently my opinion is that it doesn't make him go any faster.
Let's face it, he did not test positive and no judge is going to sentence him for going to a medical doctor while having flu. They either have to prove him taking it more than once without medical need or provide a positive doping test, both of which are probably going to be difficult. He has a valid reason to visit that doctor, according to the Olympic support point story, and they are probably not going to find any financial transactions between Kittel and the doctor in question. So without a criminal conviction or a positive doping test, he's not going to get banned.
But I agree with some of you above, criminal investigations or the like can indeed help maintain doping rules. Tracing money, hearing witnesses, proving more evidence than just a micro-gram per liter positive test, it all helps to create a more solid case. And we get to catch the sellers and doping doctors.
Let's face it, he did not test positive and no judge is going to sentence him for going to a medical doctor while having flu. They either have to prove him taking it more than once without medical need or provide a positive doping test, both of which are probably going to be difficult. He has a valid reason to visit that doctor, according to the Olympic support point story, and they are probably not going to find any financial transactions between Kittel and the doctor in question. So without a criminal conviction or a positive doping test, he's not going to get banned.
But I agree with some of you above, criminal investigations or the like can indeed help maintain doping rules. Tracing money, hearing witnesses, proving more evidence than just a micro-gram per liter positive test, it all helps to create a more solid case. And we get to catch the sellers and doping doctors.
WillemS said:
Let me correct one small thing for you, "a medical doctor that is also very likely to withdraw and re-infuse blood without medical reasons".
But I agree, if no money trail is found and there's no evidence of other visits than the sick story may well stick even if it seems to be a weird way to treat a patient.
It's been established that other sports were covered up. The initial reports said there were blood bags belonging to athletes of many sports. Only cycling names were made public, and the official story was changed to say only cycling was involved. Years later, it was revealed that some of the bags belonged to track & field athlete Marta Domínguez.Tyler'sTwin said:
Hahahaha, so you guys think he will get away with it because he had the flu...hahaha, funniest s... i heard in a while, wonder why Ricco hasnt used this defense yet. The Austrian XC skiers used the same method and the same defense after getting caught some years ago and well...got banned.
And as Kittel seems to have admitted undergoing the procedure, WADA/UCI dont need a proof for a financial transaction or a positive test.
And as Kittel seems to have admitted undergoing the procedure, WADA/UCI dont need a proof for a financial transaction or a positive test.
Illegal under 2012 WADA list.
From Section M2 of the 2012 WADA prohibited list:
If he has admitted the treatment, it appears to be a clear violation of clause 3 of that section of the code - assuming that clause was present in the WADA Prohibited List back when he was treated (and I assume it was, given blood doping is not new).
I have a bit of sympathy for Kittel here, given that he was barely a legal adult back in 2008. But either the German Olympic program was either incredibly incompetent, or rotten to the core. Given that this appears to be voodoo science both as a performance enhancer and a treatment for disease, possibly both.
From Section M2 of the 2012 WADA prohibited list:
If he has admitted the treatment, it appears to be a clear violation of clause 3 of that section of the code - assuming that clause was present in the WADA Prohibited List back when he was treated (and I assume it was, given blood doping is not new).
I have a bit of sympathy for Kittel here, given that he was barely a legal adult back in 2008. But either the German Olympic program was either incredibly incompetent, or rotten to the core. Given that this appears to be voodoo science both as a performance enhancer and a treatment for disease, possibly both.
it41 dude claims it wasn't illegal back in '08 in the article posted on the last page. Don't know the validity of this. Does seem like a hilarious way to go though, getting caught 'doping' even though it's being ranked right next to voodoo in terms of effectiveness.
Once you're clearly carrying out illegal practices under a voodoo or medical treatment umbrella, how big is the leap to keep the blood in storage that little while longer before putting it back, say 3-4 weeks? Hard to keep track exactly how much you take out and put back on a given day, it gets complicated 
OK, dug up the 2008 version of the List (it's on the archive section linked from here).
Clause 3 is missing, but clause 2 reads:
Clause 3 was added in 2011 - as the 2011 modifications document notes "Methods that consist of sequentially withdrawing, manipulating and reinfusing whole blood into the circulation have been added to this category".
I dunno. I would have thought that the 2008 clause 2 covered the practice that Kittel and the others were supposed to have used. But the fact that that WADA felt the need to add an additional clause suggests otherwise.
Clause 3 is missing, but clause 2 reads:
Clause 3 was added in 2011 - as the 2011 modifications document notes "Methods that consist of sequentially withdrawing, manipulating and reinfusing whole blood into the circulation have been added to this category".
I dunno. I would have thought that the 2008 clause 2 covered the practice that Kittel and the others were supposed to have used. But the fact that that WADA felt the need to add an additional clause suggests otherwise.
Retroactive TUE?? The good doc will surely be able to come up with one, now that there are critical questions being asked? It's like approving for those with a helpful doc, or am I reading this wrong?
hrotha said:
My point was, there is actually reason to suspect Fuentes treated footballers, but there's no evidence whatsoever that this german doc treated footballers.
My understanding is that the treatment would be clearly illegal today, but the situation in 2008 was less clear cut. Also my understanding is that the treatment was arranged by the German Olympic Federation (groans) so presumably there will be a record of payment somewhere.
It'll be pretty ironic if Kittel ends up getting a ban for a procedure that seems to be completely ineffective.
It'll be pretty ironic if Kittel ends up getting a ban for a procedure that seems to be completely ineffective.
“Dr. Franke applied the following method for the mentioned syndrome. He took a very small amount (a few cc) of blood from the body via a syringe and put this under UV lighting immediately to fight the infection in the blood. This blood was subsequently reinserted into the body. The entire treatment did not take more than a few minutes. It did not involve an infusion or transfusion.”
Straight forwardly ***.
Straight forwardly ***.
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