Are Brits and Americans at a disadvantage ?

[DirtyWorks]

I think it balances out, as US and UK have much greater funding that can be put towards finding the latest and greatest dope test beating magic juice.

The UK Olympic sports programs are to some extent publicly funded. The U.S. has practically no public funding for Olympic sports programs. One is not better than the other.

 

[sartoris]

Watching Froome's performance today I think Brits aren't a disadvantage at all. On the contrary, both he and Wiggings and all the Sky team seem to have found a way of being doped to the gills and getting away with it.

 

[MrRoboto]

Yeah, poor americans who have to hide their drug use slightly better.

 

[patterson_hood]

The reason why there are so many good sprinters in Jamaica is: first of all, black people are faster than white people. 100 meters and 200 meters are probably the most popular thing out there in Jamaica and all kids wanna become the new Powell or Usain Bolt. In the USA a lot more sports are popular, so the talent pool is spread out over more sports.

Is there actually any real scientific evidence that black people have better muscle structure? I've never bothered to look for it.

As for the second point this seems like rubbish considering that the population of Jamaica is a little under one percent of the population of the USA. To believe that Jamaica is capable of producing so many sprinters of high quality when compared to the USA without any doping seems a little naïve.

 

[maltiv]

Watching Froome's performance today I think Brits aren't a disadvantage at all. On the contrary, both he and Wiggings and all the Sky team seem to have found a way of being doped to the gills and getting away with it.

You shouldn't generalize. Except from Froome pretty much not one single rider has climbed significantly better at Sky than before. See Löfkvist for example.

 

[Paco_P]

The reason why there are so many good sprinters in Jamaica is: first of all, black people are faster than white people. 100 meters and 200 meters are probably the most popular thing out there in Jamaica and all kids wanna become the new Powell or Usain Bolt. In the USA a lot more sports are popular, so the talent pool is spread out over more sports.

The apparently superior performance of "black" athletes in events like 100m over recent decades is almost surely attributable to the excellence of the doping programs employed in the US, England, Jamaica, and other tiny Caribbean countries. In the old days, when the USSR and E. Germany had competitive doping programs, there were competitive "white" sprinters.

Carl Lewis, Flo-Jo, etc...

 

[briztoon]

The apparently superior performance of "black" athletes in events like 100m over recent decades is almost surely attributable to the excellence of the doping programs employed in the US, England, Jamaica, and other tiny Caribbean countries. In the old days, when the USSR and E. Germany had competitive doping programs, there were competitive "white" sprinters.

Carl Lewis, Flo-Jo, etc...

Holy crap, some people R sailing very close to the wind.

Dude, skin colour or "race" would have very little to do with the basis of your arguement. Last time I looked USA and Ingerlund weren't "black" nations. If there are modern doping programs in a country such as the USA then you should expect sporting teams to have representitives of every colour and "race" in a similar percentage as they are represented in the country as a whole.

As for black athletes performing better in some sports such as running and jumping, there is scientific evidence to support this in regards to having longer fast twitch muscles (or something along these lines, it's been a long time since I read the article). Similarly, whites shorter muscles are supposed to benifit them in some strength sports such as power lifting, but I would hazard to guess thier general higher socio-economic status allows them access to better quality PED's, so that's advantage enough.

 

[rgmerk]

One disadvantage

Purely from a logistical point of view, Aussie and American cyclists might be at a minor disadvantage with their doping programs, if they have to smuggle the drugs.

 

[briztoon]

Is there actually any real scientific evidence that black people have better muscle structure? I've never bothered to look for it.

As for the second point this seems like rubbish considering that the population of Jamaica is a little under one percent of the population of the USA. To believe that Jamaica is capable of producing so many sprinters of high quality when compared to the USA without any doping seems a little naïve.

Why should it be considered rubbish? Kenya and Ethiopia with much smaller populations that the USA consistantly produce such a high percentage of world class distance runners that almost no other country can match, yet no one ever associates doping with these countries.

Specific athletic abilities can be found in certain populations whith as much emphasis placed on environment as genetics. Jamaica may have a much much smaller population than the USA, but that population may have inherent bias for producing athletes that are good at sprinting. Couple that with an environment that fosters and encourages such physical attributes and a small population can produce a mutch higher percentage of athletes than other, larger nations.

And as has been mentioned by some one else, socio-economic factors can also be brought in to play. Many peoples from poorer communities see sport as a way "out", and lacking in the educational opportunities open to higher socio-economic communities, focus thier endevours on the sports dominant to thier community or nation even.

 

[briztoon]

Purely from a logistical point of view, Aussie and American cyclists might be at a minor disadvantage with their doping programs, if they have to smuggle the drugs.

Only if they're trying to smuggle them home. Who can say what programs are operating at the Aussie Italian base. Maybe that's why the cycling program was moved to Itally from Oz.

 

[patterson_hood]

Why should it be considered rubbish? Kenya and Ethiopia with much smaller populations that the USA consistantly produce such a high percentage of world class distance runners that almost no other country can match, yet no one ever associates doping with these countries.

Specific athletic abilities can be found in certain populations whith as much emphasis placed on environment as genetics. Jamaica may have a much much smaller population than the USA, but that population may have inherent bias for producing athletes that are good at sprinting. Couple that with an environment that fosters and encourages such physical attributes and a small population can produce a mutch higher percentage of athletes than other, larger nations.

And as has been mentioned by some one else, socio-economic factors can also be brought in to play. Many peoples from poorer communities see sport as a way "out", and lacking in the educational opportunities open to higher socio-economic communities, focus thier endevours on the sports dominant to thier community or nation even.

Because the exact same group of people who make up the vast majority of Jamaicans and their sprinters (former slaves) were also the same people who were shipped by the boat-load to the US. Now, if you're claiming that over say 300 years their genetic make-up has changed so considerably that they are completely different to the desendants of slaves living in the US I think you're going to have to provide some evidence to back that up.

Otherwise we can assume that the genetics are the same and that the US pile much more money into their sporting talent than Jamaica could ever hoe too. The socio-economic factors are the same in the US, a country with the largest rich-poor divide in the world I think, and many of the poor people in the US are desendants of slaves. Are you saying people are more motivated in Jamaica?

I guess you just think they train harder? Or work on their technique more than anyone else can in a sub 10 second race?

 

[patterson_hood]

Only if they're trying to smuggle them home. Who can say what programs are operating at the Aussie Italian base. Maybe that's why the cycling program was moved to Itally from Oz.

Not really, they all live in Europe for most of the year or would be able to dope in the off season. I'm not saying they all do, just that it wouldn't be much of a hinderance.

 

[Mambo95]

Because the exact same group of people who make up the vast majority of Jamaicans and their sprinters (former slaves) were also the same people who were shipped by the boat-load to the US. Now, if you're claiming that over say 300 years their genetic make-up has changed so considerably that they are completely different to the desendants of slaves living in the US I think you're going to have to provide some evidence to back that up.

Otherwise we can assume that the genetics are the same and that the US pile much more money into their sporting talent than Jamaica could ever hoe too. The socio-economic factors are the same in the US, a country with the largest rich-poor divide in the world I think, and many of the poor people in the US are desendants of slaves. Are you saying people are more motivated in Jamaica?

I guess you just think they train harder? Or work on their technique more than anyone else can in a sub 10 second race?

In America, most of the fast kids get steered towards (american) football at a young age, which even high school level presents far better opportunities than athletics. In Jamaica the biggest alternative sport is cricket which doesn't have much need for speed.

 

[patterson_hood]

In America, most of the fast kids get steered towards (american) football at a young age, which even high school level presents far better opportunities than athletics. In Jamaica the biggest alternative sport is cricket which doesn't have much need for speed.

But football requires many other attributes that will limit the pool and send others back to sprinting. I just feel Jamaica turn out a much higher percentage of worl class sprinters per head than they should. I'm pretty sure if you looked at the numbers then there would be many more people competeing in sprint events in the US than there are in Jamaica.

 

[briztoon]

patterson_hood, but we're not seeing the entire USA talent pool on the international stage are we. We are seeing the very, very top. It's far more likely that we're seeing a much smaller percentage of USA athletes than we are of Jamaican athletes. If you looked at the USA D1 collegete athletes on scholarship then you would be seeing a fair percentile representation when compared to the Jamaican percentage, even though most of the Jamaican athletes would also be at the very same D1 schools.


Mambo95 hit the nail on the head in relation to my comment on environment. Athletics may very well be the number one "get out" sport for young Jamaicans growing up, compared to the varied USA sporting landscape.

There is far more money (both in elite sports contracts and in grass roots school through to college development and AAU teams) in USA basketball, gridiron, baseball, etc than athletics. It's no wonder that young athletes gravitate, are pushed and coerced towards such sports rather than athletics.

 

[briztoon]

But football requires many other attributes that will limit the pool and send others back to sprinting.

Well, that depends on which position a person plays. I would bet 30 NFL franchises would pay over the odds for some one of Bolts physique. Classic Wide Reciever mould, fast, tall, if he has good hand eye co-ordination, he could probably carry another 40-50 pounds without losing too much speed to concern a team. Asafa Powell would possibly be more sought after with his build. The difference is that Bolt and Powell were born in a country that doesn't have a gridiron infrastructure or culture.

 

[Parrot23]

Purely from a logistical point of view, Aussie and American cyclists might be at a minor disadvantage with their doping programs, if they have to smuggle the drugs.

Don't forget the private jet option for the anglos! Pharmstrong enjoyed circumventing customs that way, Landis says. Fly to Tenerife, with his buddies, etc.

This seem popular all round. The Leopard team (which I don't know why everyone insists on pronouncing as LEO-pard, as in LEO-tard or RE-tard) arrived at the Tour that way this year.

 

[patterson_hood]

Well, that depends on which position a person plays. I would bet 30 NFL franchises would pay over the odds for some one of Bolts physique. Classic Wide Reciever mould, fast, tall, if he has good hand eye co-ordination, he could probably carry another 40-50 pounds without losing too much speed to concern a team. Asafa Powell would possibly be more sought after with his build. The difference is that Bolt and Powell were born in a country that doesn't have a gridiron infrastructure or culture.

It's been tried though. Dwayne Chambers tried to do it and failed miserably, he tried rugby league too which was even more laughable. I think most people who are sprinters don't have the physical toughness for NFL, just look how often they are out injured.

I'm not sayin that there aren't guys in NFL who could be top sprinters, just that it seems likely the US could produce a larger number of srinters than a small country like Jamaica.

 

[briztoon]

I'm not sayin that there aren't guys in NFL who could be top sprinters, just that it seems likely the US could produce a larger number of sprinters than a small country like Jamaica.

They probably do, but we just don't see them all on the world stage, so we don't know about them. USA Athletics can not fund every world class sprinter to take them all to world events, and not all sprinters can fund themselves to compete for a season in the Diamond League. Many have a fine collegiate career, and use thier scholarship to gain a degree in the real world.

Jaimaca just happens to have some dominant sprinters right now, and one freak of an athlete in Usain Bolt. Go back to the 80's and we had Carl Lewis, he wasn't any less special than Usain Bolt is today just because he was born in the USA. They are once in a generation athletes, and they can be found in many sports. Sometimes these athletes are 5, 10 and even 20 years ahead of thier competitors. It doesn't mean they are on the juice.

Now as for cycling, I can't really comment as I'm a noob. Who are the freak athletes? Is there anyone who seperates themselves from the pack?

 

[patterson_hood]

They probably do, but we just don't see them all on the world stage, so we don't know about them. USA Athletics can not fund every world class sprinter to take them all to world events, and not all sprinters can fund themselves to compete for a season in the Diamond League. Many have a fine collegiate career, and use thier scholarship to gain a degree in the real world.

Jaimaca just happens to have some dominant sprinters right now, and one freak of an athlete in Usain Bolt. Go back to the 80's and we had Carl Lewis, he wasn't any less special than Usain Bolt is today just because he was born in the USA. They are once in a generation athletes, and they can be found in many sports. Sometimes these athletes are 5, 10 and even 20 years ahead of thier competitors. It doesn't mean they are on the juice.

Now as for cycling, I can't really comment as I'm a noob. Who are the freak athletes? Is there anyone who seperates themselves from the pack?

but that means that Jamaica has a better top class of athlete, as seen in the world championship medals, than the US as I'm sure they can both afford to take the best sprinters they have but the Jamaicans are streets ahead. Not just Bolt, Blake, Cater, Powell and Carter as well.

In terms of cycling it's Contador and Cav who are the freak athletes, although whether they have a helping hand is up for debate.

 

[briztoon]

but that means that Jamaica has a better top class of athlete, as seen in the world championship medals, than the US as I'm sure they can both afford to take the best sprinters they have but the Jamaicans are streets ahead. Not just Bolt, Blake, Cater, Powell and Carter as well. (twins? )

In terms of cycling it's Contador and Cav who are the freak athletes, although whether they have a helping hand is up for debate.

In terms of male and female sprinters, at this period in time, yes they do, just. However, over all the USA has a deeper pool of talent, and are streets ahead of Jamaica over the whole gammit of athletic events.

I don't see any red flags in regards to Jamaicas sprinters. They are just as likely to be or not to be doping as the USA athletes.

 

[El Pistolero]

Purely from a logistical point of view, Aussie and American cyclists might be at a minor disadvantage with their doping programs, if they have to smuggle the drugs.

Actually a lot of dope comes from Australia. They have a well developed animal pharmacy industry there. And dopers like to take stuff that animals use because it's harder to detect. Just like in sports with animals involved they use human pharmacy products for doping.

 

[Paco_P]

Holy crap, some people R sailing very close to the wind.

Dude, skin colour or "race" would have very little to do with the basis of your arguement. Last time I looked USA and Ingerlund weren't "black" nations. If there are modern doping programs in a country such as the USA then you should expect sporting teams to have representitives of every colour and "race" in a similar percentage as they are represented in the country as a whole.

As for black athletes performing better in some sports such as running and jumping, there is scientific evidence to support this in regards to having longer fast twitch muscles (or something along these lines, it's been a long time since I read the article). Similarly, whites shorter muscles are supposed to benifit them in some strength sports such as power lifting, but I would hazard to guess thier general higher socio-economic status allows them access to better quality PED's, so that's advantage enough.

The wealthy nations with large black populations are the US, Canada, England, France. Sprinters in the Caribbean have access to resources in the US (many go to US universities on track scholarships). One expects most top tier black athletes to come from these countries. The Kenyans and Eritreans have access to the running circuit in Europe. Football teams in Europe actively scout in parts of Africa. So in certain other sports there are lots of black athletes from certain places. In the part of the US where I come from, more than half the people are black. There are strong cultural forces that are responsible for blacks being overrepresented (relative to percentage of population) in certain sports in the US - in particular track, boxing, and basketball jump out. It's a bit like how jazz and rap came mainly out of the black community and bluegrass came out of the white community. Here's an anecdotal example - in my high school the most athletically talented black kid became a point guard, the tailback, and a sprinter/longjumper. He went to an SEC school on a full track scholarship. He later qualified for the Olympics. The most athletically talented white kid became a point guard, quarterback, and a 1500m runner. He later went to an Ivy League college. His dad was a rich man, the other guy's dad was a line cook. With very similar talent levels the outcomes were different. The pattern is a common one. Why is it the US has produced no top tier black cyclists? or swimmers? or very few tennis players (Arthur Ashe is still exceptional)? It was a big change about a decade ago in the NFL when suddenly there were black quarterbacks other than Warren Moon. Still there are no white tailbacks. This is because white football players with tailback like skills get turned into linebackers, or fullbacks. Everyone's model tailbacks were Jim Brown and OJ Simpson and Earl Campbell. The model quarterbacks were Joe Montana, Dan Marino, John Elway, Peyton Manning. These things are changing, finally, though slowly.

I've not seen any scientific evidence demonstrating a racial basis for muscular differences. In fact it is very hard to give race any kind of scientifically defensible meaning.

 

[131313]

As someone who's pretty experienced with the US primary and secondary school athletics thing, I can tell you that almost without exception track and field gets second pick at the best athletes. The fastest kids are directed to football, and at a young age. The Dwayne Chambers example is a poor one. If he grew up in the US he'd have been playing football as a kid, and directed into football at an early age. In other words, he's be Willie Gault. Some of those kids do track as well, like Gault, Deion Sanders and bunch of other guys, but the absolute best kids focus on other sports and do track on the side with little training. And why wouldn't they? There's not much opportunity for US Track and Field athletes. It's on a par with US track cycling.

I don't doubt that the doping controls are more lax in some countries than others, and I actually agree with Tygert's basic point: the lax controls makes it more difficult for all clean athletes, whether they're from Jamaica or the US. But the lack of top sprinters from the US has more to do with football than anything else.

 

[Paco_P]

It's been tried though. Dwayne Chambers tried to do it and failed miserably, he tried rugby league too which was even more laughable. I think most people who are sprinters don't have the physical toughness for NFL, just look how often they are out injured.

I'm not sayin that there aren't guys in NFL who could be top sprinters, just that it seems likely the US could produce a larger number of srinters than a small country like Jamaica.

Bob Hayes (100m gold), Renaldo Nehemiah (110m hurdle wordl record), and Willie Gault (4x100m gold, Olympic 110m hurdler and bobsledder) are three examples of top tier sprinters who had careers in the NFL. Hayes was very successful for the Dallas Cowboys, Gault had a solid career for the Chicago Bears, and Nehemiah was a debacle for the San Francisco 49ers. A whole lot of very good college sprinters have become NFL players (think someone like Herschel Walker or Art Monk).