Are Saxo the most tactically inept team in the peloton?

[Cerberus]

Today was a stroke of genius by B. Riis. He didn't even have to hold back any riders, Voigt was only there so the Schlecks could have someone to chat with. Fabu did all the work without even switching on his Gruber.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's pre stage interviews, where Jens will attempt to break his own world record at whinging about the parcours.

Riis to ekstrabladet.dk on whether Saxo will wait for GC competitors tomorrow:

Bjarne is no fool.

A bit unsympathetic I'd say. Clearly today was something of a special case given the oil, but still...

 

[ulrikmm]

After watching stage 2 and 3 in the 2010 Tour de France, they seem to completely control the peloton. Great tactic!

 

[scribe]

Seriously, the dolt that started this thread should just delete their account

 

[Boeing]

What's the word on Frank? Damn shame....

 

[hawkeye87]

What's the word on Frank? Damn shame....

Broken collarbone.

 

[ulrikmm]

The Saxo tactic at stage 9 of Tdf 2010 was to send Voigt out in front to help Andy later on, and to use Sørensen and Fuglsang to press the yellow jersey on the ascents. It worked brilliantly, and now Andy Schleck is in yellow. I think Riis is quite good at his job .

 

[Steampunk]

This thread went quiet very quickly. Is there a team that's been better at imposing its tactical will on the peloton? Saxo Bank have had just about everything go their way with the exception of Schleck Sr. crashing out. From controlling the cobbles (terrific work from Voigt, Breschel, O'Grady, & co. keeping on the front of the peloton as they entered the pavé; and what can you say about Spartacus just resting his wrists over the bars as he carried Schleck Jr. to the finish). Schleck testing Contador on Stage 8; and Voigt carrying Schleck up la Madeleine today. They may be in yellow earlier than planned, but they've pretty much destroyed most of the main GC contenders (not singlehandedly, of course, but they've managed to play out their game plan with ruthless effectiveness and ease).

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

So getting Cuddles to break his elbow and lose 8 minutes is evidence of tactical genius from Riis?

Getting Fab Can to hold Andy's hand on the Cobbles is hardly a stroke of genius now is it?

I suppose to be fair we have to give Riis credit. He has discovered a recent tactical innovation called 'attacking before the final stage of a race'. Well done Bjarne. It's taken you long enough. Lets hope you can go into the final TT with something more than 40 second lead.

Still nice to see some bandwagon jumpers leaping on board the good ship Saxo as soon as Andy gets into Yellow.

 

[scribe]

^^^^^^dolt

 

[Cerberus]

So getting Cuddles to break his elbow and lose 8 minutes is evidence of tactical genius from Riis?

Getting Fab Can to hold Andy's hand on the Cobbles is hardly a stroke of genius now is it?

I suppose to be fair we have to give Riis credit. He has discovered a recent tactical innovation called 'attacking before the final stage of a race'. Well done Bjarne. It's taken you long enough. Lets hope you can go into the final TT with something more than 40 second lead.

Still nice to see some bandwagon jumpers leaping on board the good ship Saxo as soon as Andy gets into Yellow.

Oh, you're back, you never did comment on the CQ rankings from the last 10 years, I'll repost them for you:

2001:17
2002:13
2003:11
2004:3
2005:1
2006:1
2007:1
2008:1
2009:2
2010:3 (so far)
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2010

Could you explain again how the gross tactical incompetence of Riis is preventing Saxo Bank from succeeding? Perhaps you could also explain where Saxo Bank would be in the ranking if Riis was competent?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Not really, a 40 second lead over a rider who is a much superior TTer is hardly slapping the competition into next week and dominating the race.

Cerebus - I never went away - I never commented because they are irrelevant to the discussion which is Saxo in GTs. Now if you stop cherry picking then maybe we can discuss something. So simmer down tiger and stick to the topic in hand.

Well done, Saxo have a rider in Yellow - who knows Riis might luck his way into to another GT winner. He's had enough goes - if you throw enough **** at the wall sometimes it sticks.

You Saxo fanboys are as bad as the Shack fanboys.

 

[Cerberus]

Not really, a 40 second lead over a rider who is a much superior TTer is hardly slapping the competition into next week and dominating the race.

Cerebus - I never went away - I never commented because they are irrelevant to the discussion which is Saxo in GTs. Now if you stop cherry picking then maybe we can discuss something. So simmer down tiger and stick to the topic in hand.

Really, I didn't think it was so of topic, in fact I seem to recall saying that "The fact is that Saxo Bank is by any objective measure one of the most successful teams in the sport. Whether you're counting GT GC results, Stage wins, Classics win, total win, quality of wins or number of wins Saxo Bank is ranked near the top. Those are fact and no amount of obfuscation will change those fact. " to which you replied

you've claimed that Saxo are one of the most successful teams - choose your measure and time frame and lets look at what they have achieved compared to other teams in the same time frame.

I picked a measure, I picked a time frame, but for some reason you went silent just as I complied with your request for actual data and now you transparently claim I'm derailing the topic, nice try. Still if you're not satisfied with the measure and time frame I picked you can pick a measure you'll find that by almost any conceivable measure Saxo Bank is one of the top teams in the world since 2004. Hey here's an idea, try measuring number of days in the Green jersey, I think you've got a chance there.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Your link doesn't work but none the less. What do the CQ ratings show? That basically the team ranking is as high as it is because of Fab Can, in 2008 the ranking was boosted by Sastre winning the TDF, that riders like Jens can make a killing by cleaning up in races like the Tour of Germany. Again, still doesn't prove that Riis is a tactical genius.

Why does the CQ score include points for races which are not raced under team colours? For example Fab Can got almost 1/3 of his 2009 Saxo score from his WC performance. Don't you think that is a little bit distorting of the results? Are you going to include Basso's OP 2006 points in the figures? What about Hamilton's contribution that lifted them from 22nd to 11th in 2003 (take that out and they are being out performed by Brioches La Boulangère).

Here's the thing - the CQ rankings give points for coming 2nd, so all this means is Saxo can enter a big race with lots of points, screw up their tactics but still get lots of points - how does that prove that they have been getting their tactics right? That they have a strong team has never been in doubt - the point was that they do not get their tactics right especially in GTs, I don't see how the CQ rankings prove otherwise.

 

[slowoldman]

I don't know, I think they did a wonderful job for Alberto today.....

 

[ulrikmm]

You sound like just the man to tell us all how they should have done better. It must be easy, now that you have hindsight too.

 

[Magnus]

I don't know, I think they did a wonderful job for Alberto today.....

And Alberto did a wonderful job for Andy...

 

[Cerberus]

Your link doesn't work

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2010

but none the less. What do the CQ ratings show? That basically the team ranking is as high as it is because of Fab Can, in 2008 the ranking was boosted by Sastre winning the TDF, that riders like Jens can make a killing by cleaning up in races like the Tour of Germany.

Wow, so Saxo Bank is high in the rating because their riders win many races including big important races, sure that's a damning inditment of CQ rating.

Again, still doesn't prove that Riis is a tactical genius.

You seem to have some serious issues with reading comprehension or attention spans, this is not a thread started by me saying that Riis is a tactical genius, it's a thread started by you saying he's the most incompetent DS in the history in the sport as evidenced by Saxo Banks dismal results. A point that falls rather catastrophically flat when confronted by the fact that Saxo Banks results are second to none. You have absolutely zero basis for you OP, as proven further by your failure to name any measure by which Saxo Bank is doing badly.

ETA: If you'd like to change you mind from "Riis is a total incompetent" to "I don't think there's any strong evidence that Saxo Banks success is due to any outstanding tactical genius on Riis part" then I will certainly welcome your unexpected decision to agree with what I've been saying the entire time.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

LOL. Funny how when you can't actually deal with the questions you start ranting. Now, honey-bunny, put your **** away and try to engage using your brain instead of your **** when posting. Reading and comprehension problems? I suggest you perhaps return to school, or maybe take some chill pills before reading threads that dare to be critical of your boy Bjarne - as criticism of Saxo seems to cause some kind of mental meltdown in you. You'd bite on a **** if you thought it was dissing Mr 60%. OMG - someone dissed Saxo - quick let me show them how wrong they are by being uber-macho. I am Cerebus hear me roar. Rwwwar - I sure showed everyone how great Saxo are.

You claimed that the team is the 'most successful' according to the CQ rankings. Fair enough, but there are flaws in the way the CQ rankings are derived which firstly bring into question how the scores are put together and furthermore, do not demonstrate tactical competence on the part of Riis. It doesn't disprove my point that Fab Can success covers over for the incompetence of the team in other races.

The CQ rankings are a red herring.

As I said at the start of the thread a team with the riders and resources it has should have more success in GTs than it has had. The CQ rankings are weighted in favour of the strong-resource rich teams like Saxo. So Saxo get a load of CQ points last year because Andy came second in the TDF and Frank's top 10, combined with Fab Can's days in Yellow. Does this make them successful or tactically sound? No, it makes them successful at getting points in the CQ rankings. Two strong riders in the top ten nets you loads of CQ points but it doesn't make the team successful (except by this measure), nor does it make the team management tactical geniuses.

In short - try to chill the **** out and try to have a sensible discussion. I am quite happy to use the CQ rankings as a starting point for a discussion about whether Saxo are successful or not but the methodology has to be questioned. If you can't handle that, and you can't handle someone questioning Riis, then I suggest this thread isn't for you.

 

[Bellkicker]

I admire your tenacity Mrs John Murphy. You just won't stay down.

I'll play along and ask, specifically, which races CSC/Saxo would have won with superior tactics?

I'll say 2002 Giro with Hamilton.

 

[Cerberus]

LOL. Funny how when you can't actually deal with the questions you start ranting.

Mmm..

Now, honey-bunny, put your **** away and try to engage using your brain instead of your **** when posting.

Mmm..

You claimed that the team is the 'most successful' according to the CQ rankings. Fair enough, but there are flaws in the way the CQ rankings are derived which firstly bring into question how the scores are put together and furthermore, do not demonstrate tactical competence on the part of Riis. It doesn't disprove my point that Fab Can success covers over for the incompetence of the team in other races.

I don't need to disprove you point, you need to prove it.

As I said at the start of the thread a team with the riders and resources it has should have more success in GTs than it has had.

And as I said you're wrong, Saxo Bank has perhaps had the second best riders after Postal/Astana. They've also had around the second best results in GTs. They've also had far better results outside of GTs.

The CQ rankings are weighted in favour of the strong-resource rich teams like Saxo. So Saxo get a load of CQ points

Yet none of the other Strong-resource teams can match Saxo accomplishments in the last 7 years in that particular department, funny that.

last year because Andy came second in the TDF and Frank's top 10, combined with Fab Can's days in Yellow. Does this make them successful or tactically sound? No, it makes them successful at getting points in the CQ rankings. Two strong riders in the top ten nets you loads of CQ points but it doesn't make the team successful (except by this measure), nor does it make the team management tactical geniuses.

Does it make them tactically sound? GTs are, as I said, before not primarily about tactics, but they seem to have avoided screwing up. Does it make them successfully? Why yes, I believe you'll find that almost any DS would be not only satisfied, but frankly ecstatic to leave a Tour with 3 stage wins, a jersey, a podium and several days in the yellow jersey. In fact only one team did better, a team which unlike Saxo had a singular focus on the Tour. I suppose you could also make a case for Columbia doing better, but that's highly debatable.

The fact is that whatever Riis tactical skills are they certainly haven't prevented Saxo them from being one of the most successfully team in the last 7 years, probably the most successful.

You will of cause want to keep dodging this question since the answer is bound to be inconvenient for you, but what is success is you mind and what teams have had more success that Saxo?

*Listen to the sound of crickets*

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I admire your tenacity Mrs John Murphy. You just won't stay down.

I'll play along and ask, specifically, which races CSC/Saxo would have won with superior tactics?

I'll say 2002 Giro with Hamilton.

Interesting. What do you think they should have done differently in that race?

Cerebus - Your point is what? Lots of requoting which makes no sense - are you trying to bore me into submission? If tactics don't matter and second is considered a success even if first was obtainable, then this is the wrong thread for you.

 

[Cerberus]

Interesting. What do you think they should have done differently in that race?

Cerebus - Your point is what? Lots of requoting which makes no sense - are you trying to bore me into submission? If tactics don't matter and second is considered a success even if first was obtainable, then this is the wrong thread for you.

My point is that first wasn't obtainable any year except 2008. My other point was:

"You will of cause want to keep dodging this question since the answer is bound to be inconvenient for you, but what is success in you mind and what teams have had more success that Saxo?

*Listen to the sound of crickets* "

 

[auscyclefan94]

Pass the Parcel...

Saxo need to pass the parcel onto another team. Saxo have rode on the front already day in day out in the first week and how are they going to hold onto it now till Paris. Their team for the mountains to bee honest is not overly strong in my opinion as on the climbs they have not had many numbers on the climbs. I think Schleck is screwed to be honest as he is going to hold yellow for two weeks to win imo. I could be very wrong.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

In what time frame and by what measure? Astana have GT's and classic wins, Rabo have GT and classic wins, Caisse have GT and classic wins, as do Liquigas, Katusha have classic wins (and a lot of other stage and race wins), as do Quick Step, Lotto and Columbia.

Yes, Saxo are successful especially when compared to FDJ or Footon. Could they have been more successful if Riis wasn't so tactically stupid? Yes. As I say - if you're happy with second then fine, you can put the pom-poms and rah rah skirt away.

ACF - Who would you have Saxo lose yellow to and how would you avoid an Oscar P type situation?

 

[Cerberus]

Saxo need to pass the parcel onto another team. Saxo have rode on the front already day in day out in the first week and how are they going to hold onto it now till Paris. Their team for the mountains to bee honest is not overly strong in my opinion as on the climbs they have not had many numbers on the climbs. I think Schleck is screwed to be honest as he is going to hold yellow for two weeks to win imo. I could be very wrong.

Yeah I agree, Saxo Bank have been disappointing in the mountains and should if they can do it safely hand over the jersey to one of the minor teams that would be happy to defend it.