Are Saxo the most tactically inept team in the peloton?

[Magnus]

Now, do you see - I am talking about 2008 here, not 2009, not 2007, but 2008,

A race they won.

Saxo were unwilling to make any decisive attacks before D'Huez,

In 2009 it was reported that AS and Riis had a stand up row after Dertie destroyed them on the climb to Arcalis.

Contador gained 21 seconds on Schleck.

Sastre gained 47 seconds at Prato Nevoso.

Could you please telle me why 47 seconds isn't decisive but 21 seconds is destroying?

I am talking about the teams performance in GTs. The success in the cobbled races was more down to Spartacus than any tactical genius from Riis.

Fabian attacked shortly after Boonen had just pulled hard at the front. Why did Boonen do that? Because Breschel had just bin dropped. Breschel was injured going in to the race but Riis played the game of "two captains" perfectly and at the time Breschel was 3rd biggest favourite for victory.

When they did try anything tactical ie FW, Amstel and LBL this year it failed miserably. 2009 LBL can be put down to the failure of the chasers to organise the chase properly rather than any tactical genius from Saxo.

I see when Saxo loose it's down to bad tactics and when they win it's because of bad tactics and everybody else not beeing able to ride a bike.

I think it's safe to say you're pretty biased in your assessments.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Are you Riis's PR man? Funny how when you can't answer any criticism you respond with personal attacks and accusations of bias. You shouldn't be so sensitive.

FS might well have taken 47 seconds - but that is useless if you are going to lose 5 minutes across two ITTs. The idea of attacking in the mountains is to gain more time than you will lose in the ITT.

Bottom line - Saxo won the TDF in 2008 not because of Riis but in spite of him. And it is fairly clear that they will continue to fail to win the TDF for as long as he is making the tactical decisions.

Their best hope is that Astana get Festina'd out of the tour or Contador falls off on the cobbles.

 

[Magnus]

Are you Riis's PR man? Funny how when you can't answer any criticism you respond with personal attacks and accusations of bias. You shouldn't be so sensitive.

I'm not Riis's PR man. Don't take it personal but given how you asses reality I think it's pretty clear you're biased.

FS might well have taken 47 seconds - but that is useless if you are going to lose 5 minutes across two ITTs. The idea of attacking in the mountains is to gain more time than you will lose in the ITT.

Sastre did, not FS. Please read my post before answering.
The point is you called 21 seconds destroying and 47 seconds not decisive. That's biased.

Bottom line - Saxo won the TDF in 2008 not because of Riis but in spite of him.

It seems it's your head line more than the bottom line. Did you ever hear of Karl Popper and falsification?

And it is fairly clear that they will continue to fail to win the TDF for as long as he is making the tactical decisions.

You're probably right that Andy isn't going to beat Contador any time soon. I think most people explain that by Contador being a better climber and TT'ist. You choose to explain it by poor tactics.

 

[Cerberus]

Are you Riis's PR man? Funny how when you can't answer any criticism you respond with personal attacks and accusations of bias. You shouldn't be so sensitive.

If you consider "pretty biased" a personal attack you might want to tone down your bias.

Bottom line - Saxo won the TDF in 2008 not because of Riis but in spite of him. And it is fairly clear that they will continue to fail to win the TDF for as long as he is making the tactical decisions.

Bottom line is that by your own admission half the "evidence" you have provided is purely a product of your imagination. The other half is just nonsense.

The fact is that Saxo Bank is by any objective measure one of the most successful teams in the sport. Whether you're counting GT GC results, Stage wins, Classics win, total win, quality of wins or number of wins Saxo Bank is ranked near the top. Those are fact and no amount of obfuscation will change those fact.

I won't claim that Saxo Banks success is due to any great tactical genius on Riis part. I consider "tactics" far less important than pure rider strenght, particularly in GTs, but the notion that all this success is somehow in spite of Riis doing his very best to screw up his own team is ludicrous.

Anyway I suspect you'll ignore this as you've ignored every other attempt to reason with you, so I'll leave you to you ranting, have fun with it. When the Tour is over you can triumphantly declare victory when Andy probably will have failed to win it, ignoring the fact that this makes all team save one failures and of cause disregarding any results Saxo Bank has got (will have gotten?) in the Tour.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Much the same could be said of you two. Funny how anyone who dares to disagree with you or who dares to question Riis's tactical genius is declared 'biased'. Why don't you just go the whole hog and copy the Armstrong fanboy arguments and called me a 'hater who loves cancer', since this is pretty much the level you've been operating at on in this debate.

If anyone has been ranting its you two. I've stated an opinion - and you've got your knickers in a twist and had to resort to name calling. Again, try not to be so sensitive to criticism of your boy Bjarne.

So lets try again - you've claimed that Saxo are one of the most successful teams - choose your measure and time frame and lets look at what they have achieved compared to other teams in the same time frame. Lets compare team budgets, stated goals and goals achieved.

So do you think Saxo got their tactics right last year in the TDF? Do you think they've got their tactics right in the TDS, LBL, FW, Amstel this season?

 

[Cerberus]

Much the same could be said of you two. Funny how anyone who dares to disagree with you or who dares to question Riis's tactical genius is declared 'biased'. Why don't you just go the whole hog and copy the Armstrong fanboy arguments and called me a 'hater who loves cancer', since this is pretty much the level you've been operating at on in this debate.

If anyone has been ranting its you two. I've stated an opinion - and you've got your knickers in a twist and had to resort to name calling. Again, try not to be so sensitive to criticism of your boy Bjarne.

So lets try again - you've claimed that Saxo are one of the most successful teams - choose your measure and time frame and lets look at what they have achieved compared to other teams in the same time frame. Lets compare team budgets, stated goals and goals achieved.

I seem to specifically havin said that I didn't claim that Saxo's success was due to any particular tactical genious. But sure I can pick a metricic CQ team rankings are fairly inclusive and easy to get at and let's say the last 10 years 2001-2010.
2001:17
2002:13
2003:11
2004:3
2005:1
2006:1
2007:1
2008:1
2009:2
2010:3 (so far)
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2010
Fairly impressive I would say, at least from 2004 onwards.

You are of cause correct that we should be assessing it according to budget, but I'm not sure that team budgets are even public.

So do you think Saxo got their tactics right last year in the TDF? Do you think they've got their tactics right in the TDS, LBL, FW, Amstel this season?

Last year in the TDF? Seemed pretty sensible yes. They made a couble of trade-offs such as Andy clearly working to get his brother on the podium near the end. Didn't work in retrospect, but then it's not like Andy could have realistically challenged Contador.

As for the races this year, I don't want to call you selection biased since that seems to upset you, but I don wonder what made you leave the cobbled Classics out? You're not a fan of cobbles perhaps? I haven't followed TdS that closely, but for the Ardennes classics, my assessment is that Andy just didn't have the same strenght he had last year and that's the reason the results weren't so great. Also of cause the Team was somewhat weaker having lost Kolobnev and Kroon among others.

 

[Magnus]

So do you think Saxo got their tactics right last year in the TDF? Do you think they've got their tactics right in the TDS, LBL, FW, Amstel this season?

Ok. You're right. Clearly Riis shouldn't have told Fabian to loose the last TT in TdS.

 

[Cerberus]

Ok. You're right. Clearly Riis shouldn't have told Fabian to loose the last TT in TdS.

On the other hand I think instructing Frank Schleck to stop sucking in TTs and win the overall was a masterstroke.

 

[JPM London]

Just have this to say: First and third in the Tour de Suisse!

 

[JPM London]

On the other hand I think instructing Frank Schleck to stop sucking in TTs and win the overall was a masterstroke.

Damn, you got there first!

 

[Cerberus]

Just have this to say: First and third in the Tour de Suisse!

And just think of how they'd have done if not for Riis' bumbling! I'm thinking podium sweep.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Yep, a definite tactical masterclass from Riis and Saxo in TDS there. TDF domination awaits.

 

[Christian]

I won't claim that Saxo Banks success is due to any great tactical genius on Riis part.

Funny how anyone who dares to disagree with you or who dares to question Riis's tactical genius is declared 'biased'. (...) Again, try not to be so sensitive to criticism of your boy Bjarne.

As you can see Cerberus does not claim Riis to be a tactical genius, but there are things in between "tactical genius" (what exactly are the criteria to be a tactical genius? Who would you consider a tactical genius?) and "complete moron".

Plus Kim Andersen is Saxo's DS at most of the important races now anyways.

 

[scribe]

Yep, a definite tactical masterclass from Riis and Saxo in TDS there. TDF domination awaits.

I am thinking that you probably pi$$ excellence.

 

[Angliru]

In 2009 it was reported that AS and Riis had a stand up row after Dertie destroyed them on the climb to Arcalis.

Even if this were so are we to attach any credibility to AS's statements considering he stated during last year's Tour that he was the best climber in the world, this after being dropped by the obvious best climber in the world?

 

[Angliru]

Agreed and last year everyone knew there was not going to be a last second. Contador was clearly going to be superior and it was just pathetic how Andy kept looking around to see if Frank was still managing to keep up. Rather than worrying about dragging Franks *** up to the podium they should have been focussing on putting pressure on AC. Andy's stop start attacks did nothing towards pressuring AC and really they had settled for second place.

THis year will be no different, Saxo do not have a hope other than working with RS to try and crack Astana before the mountains...a slim hope.

At a certain point reality sets in and you have to fight battles that are winnable rather than those that have proven to be futile. By the Ventoux stage, Contador's lead on Andy Scheck was insurmountable. Getting Frank Schleck on the podium was a realistic goal, one that they pursued. Unfortunately Armstrong proved to have regained his climbing legs and was unshakeable.

 

[Christian]

Even if this were so are we to attach any credibility to AS's statements considering he stated during last year's Tour that he was the best climber in the world, this after being dropped by the obvious best climber in the world?

When exactly is he supposed to have said this ?!

All I ever read is: Contador is the favourite, TdF victory only goes by beating him, he is the strongest but not unbeatable. Maybe you just used a bad translating program?

 

[la.margna]

While I agree with T-Mob being catastrophic, Saxo does not deserve to be compared at all with them.

I think, getting two stage wins and the overall GC win (+ 3d) in this Tour de Suisse as well as winning the team GC, provides the best answer to this thread. Let's do not forget about all the other important excellent results this season.

In last year's Tour, I had also tried a few things entirely differently, but it's always easy to criticise from the outside...

 

[Angliru]

When exactly is he supposed to have said this ?!

All I ever read is: Contador is the favourite, TdF victory only goes by beating him, he is the strongest but not unbeatable. Maybe you just used a bad translating program?

It was after the stage to Andorra Arcalis I believe. He followed that by saying that he had figured out what he was doing wrong in responding to Contador's attacks. He said his mistake was trying to match Contador's initial acceleration and that he instead would simply ride at his own pace and reel him in. The results of this strategy was the 40+ seconds he lost on Verbier. Of course his statement of being the best climber in the world could've been in jest but with him I just don't know. He's also mentioned that Moncoutie could be a Tour contender but he's got something wrong in his head. This is just another among other odd statements.

 

[Von Mises]

It was after the stage to Andorra Arcalis I believe. He followed that by saying that he had figured out what he was doing wrong in responding to Contador's attacks. He said his mistake was trying to match Contador's initial acceleration and that he instead would simply ride at his own pace and reel him in. The results of this strategy was the 40+ seconds he lost on Verbier. Of course his statement of being the best climber in the world could've been in jest but with him I just don't know. He's also mentioned that Moncoutie could be a Tour contender but he's got something wrong in his head. This is just another among other odd statements.

I remember during winter (I think it was during winter), Andy Schleck blogged that he and Riis have been watching last years Tour videos and analyzing what went wrong, ASchleck concluded that he made a mistake not matching (not tryoing to match) Contador´s initial acceleration.

 

[Angliru]

I remember during winter (I think it was during winter), Andy Schleck blogged that he and Riis have been watching last years Tour videos and analyzing what went wrong, ASchleck concluded that he made a mistake not matching (not tryoing to match) Contador´s initial acceleration.

Funny that's what he tried to do on the stage to Andorra Arcalis. He said he would change his strategy to what I stated above. Now he's back to the original tactic?

 

[Von Mises]

Funny that's what he tried to do on the stage to Andorra Arcalis. He said he would change his strategy to what I stated above. Now he's back to the original tactic?

I searched a bit and this is what he (or his ghostwriter) wrote January 18

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/andy-schleck/padding-my-resume



On more a more serious note my Tour de France analysis has taken up a lot of my time in recent weeks. I've studied a lot of TV footage from the 2009 race with Kim and Bjarne

We have no regrets about how the race played out but we've looked at other riders' performances. One thing we all agreed on is that next year Alberto Contador will start as the big favourite. He doesn't have to attack to win, so you have to wonder who will be the most aggressive rider.

It'll be up to guys like Lance to drop Contador on the climbs if he wants to win the Tour. I'm perhaps in the same situation but I think I have more chance of success. Last year the difference between Contador and I on the climbs was huge but what I learnt is that when he goes I need to be on his wheel straight away. That was maybe my biggest mistake in 2009. I like to ride at my rhythm but once you give Contador 100 meters, it's difficult to pull it back and he doesn't look back or give it back.

 

[euanli]

Given todays stage, no.

 

[goggalor]

Given todays stage, no.

Today was a stroke of genius by B. Riis. He didn't even have to hold back any riders, Voigt was only there so the Schlecks could have someone to chat with. Fabu did all the work without even switching on his Gruber.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's pre stage interviews, where Jens will attempt to break his own world record at whinging about the parcours.

Riis to ekstrabladet.dk on whether Saxo will wait for GC competitors tomorrow:

Det ved jeg ikke. De (andre, red.) kunne jo også bare have kørt i dag.

I don't know/I can't say. The others could have just ridden today.

Bjarne is no fool.

 

[glamorganmorgan]

my answer is no