are we gonna have to change Wigans name?

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Aug 15, 2010
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Reverend_T_Preedy said:
Pathetic arguement. At least come up with some sort of evidence or reasoned argument.

I have been mates with a lad for years until recently when he was convicted of rape. By using this argument that would make me a rapist too.

If that's all you can think of then don't bother posting anything.

It's not an argument, I was merely saying it is a valid question. I also said that the Brailsford/GB Squad episode (which some maintain did not happen and I notice that Mambo95 has not responded - though he may not have been online since I believe he was online when I posted the resonse) did not constitute conclusive proof.

I'm someone who knows professional cyclists, and has heard from the horses mouths, so to speak, what goes on. I had my illusions of what I thought were genuine performance shattered at the age of eighteen (1986);

Soigneur to 6 day cyclist "which of these two amphetamines would you like?"
Rider "both"
Soigneur "but you don't need both"
Rider "give me both"

The soigneur in question used to work with a certain rider many deem to be the greatest cyclist ever and, during the same period as the episode above, gave brown phials of liquid to an amateur rider I knew. Later we equalled a national record riding with the same rider and I have had to wonder was what we achieved down to our efforts or would we have ridden slower, was the performance genuine?

So to be honest I feel quite entitled to gauge performances I see and wonder, out loud if necessary, are they genuine, I felt with what I knew (I don't expect you to believe me, you are entitled to your own opinion) that I agreed with the question asked. I didn't say Bradley was guilty but wondered genuinely where his step foward in perfomance came from. Apparently, I read now, he has now trained at altitude whereas he had not previously. This may well explain things, it may not.

I'm entitled to ask are the performances we see the real deal. And, from where I've been and what I've seen, I'm afraid I'll always have a dose of skepticism.

If Bradley's squeaky clean having his performance questionned it is of course a great shame, but I'm not naive enough to not have that question in the back of my mind. It's a consequence of the sport and my experience.

As for the precise question of location in France mentionned by others, fair enough I was may a couple of hunded miles out, but I do have it on good authority that my information is correct (but have to acknowledge I did not myself see that episode with my own eyes).

I inferred that there could well be doubt about another performance, and in my mind the doubt is well founded. I hope though that I am wrong.

Those who have attacked what I said interest me - attack is the best form of defence. That said Bradley is innocent until proven guilty. I'm curious as to the identity of some on here, their replies are curious, but out of fairness to them I won't be revealing the source of my information.

The definitive proof you crave Reverend is difficult to come by then - but it doesn't mean my info is wrong. I recently read 'The Death Of Marco Pantani' by Matt Rendell, and for a while was a fifteen year old schoolboy again, prior to having my illusions shattered. I got to half way and it rapidly went downhill; not the Journalism, my enthusiasm. I hope Bradley is clean. Do you want me to come up with a used syringe with Bradley's fingerprints on?

There's a reason for everything; everyones perspective is going to be different and mine is shaped by my experience I'm afraid. I'll admit I find it difficult to trust.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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hmsgenoa said:
(which some maintain did not happen and I notice that Mambo95 has not responded - though he may not have been online since I believe he was online when I posted the resonse)

I was letting your own feeble justification speak for itself.
 
Aug 15, 2010
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Mambo95 said:
I was letting your own feeble justification speak for itself.

Touche! Except I don't think it is feeble. Keep it simple, less revealing nice touch. I wasn't justifying what I said merely pointing out flaws in what you said. At least I open up and say exactly where I'm coming from.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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hmsgenoa said:
Touche! Except I don't think it is feeble. Keep it simple, less revealing nice touch. I wasn't justifying what I said merely pointing out flaws in what you said. At least I open up and say exactly where I'm coming from.

My assertion is that they weren't in Biarritz in late June 2004. Nothing more, nothing less. I have not tried to argue as to whether they are clean or not (although I think they are).

I have pointed out why this doesn't seem likely (e.g. why would they be sleeping Millar's couch, while in Newport they stay at a five star hotel, why would they go somewhere without a velodrome).

You say you have a reliable source - well maybe he's not as reliable as you think. And stories of six-day racing in the 80s aren't really relevant.

I will address this bit you wrote:

"Of course I'm sure the French Police made the GB squad privy to their investigation - not. And it's not a co-incidence that Dave B was knocking around down there, oh no."

1. The Cofidis investigation had been going on for a few months and was common knowledge
2. Brailsford was in Biarritz to talk to Millar about the Olympic Time Trial.
 
Aug 15, 2010
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Mambo95 said:
My assertion is that they weren't in Biarritz in late June 2004. Nothing more, nothing less. I have not tried to argue as to whether they are clean or not (although I think they are).

I have pointed out why this doesn't seem likely (e.g. why would they be sleeping Millar's couch, while in Newport they stay at a five star hotel, why would they go somewhere without a velodrome).

You say you have a reliable source - well maybe he's not as reliable as you think. And stories of six-day racing in the 80s aren't really relevant.

I will address this bit you wrote:

"Of course I'm sure the French Police made the GB squad privy to their investigation - not. And it's not a co-incidence that Dave B was knocking around down there, oh no."

1. The Cofidis investigation had been going on for a few months and was common knowledge
2. Brailsford was in Biarritz to talk to Millar about the Olympic Time Trial.

I wonder how you can be so sure of their whereabouts unless you were actually with them yourself all of the time (why I become curious as to who you are). Think Rasmussen, people aren't always where they say they are or are reported to be. The velodrome is an essential tool but not an exclusive one, and while Biarritz may not be described as 'mediteranean' , and there might be a bit of a breeze of The Atlantic, its nice and hot down there at the time of your in question.

The episode in the 80's is relevant to me in that it shaped the my experience and the way I tend to view professional cycling. And the associated experience is relevant because the possibility exists that 1 member of a team could be doped and the others clean, which somewhat spoils the clean riders experience. As someone who has been through that I found what I'd heard extremely interesting. I was giving substance to why I was skeptical and why I was particularly interested in the 'team' aspect.

The reliability of my source will always be open to question by people who don't know him, that's natural. But I wonder how accurate your information/assertion is that they spent a six week period exclusively in Newport or Manchester with out being anywhere further afield. Unless you were actually with them yourself I simply wonder how you can assert this. And the same goes for what I'd heard - I guess we will never know for sure. I found it interesting that the information I heard was kept quiet.

I'm sure the Olympic time trial did crop up in conversation, and that was a principal reason for Mr B's visit. I'm sure other subjects cropped up too.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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hmsgenoa said:
But I wonder how accurate your information/assertion is that they spent a six week period exclusively in Newport or Manchester with out being anywhere further afield. Unless you were actually with them yourself I simply wonder how you can assert this.

I know the manager of Newport Sports Village (which includes the velodrome). His name is Neil and we play for the same hockey club, and quite often the same team.
(I also work near the velodrome and frequently see GB riders. I don't know if I did at the time).
 
Feb 28, 2010
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Sorry to labour a point, but Biarritz may be warm in late June, but it's not hot. The average temperature for June is given as 18c, while for Manchester it's 14c, however when it comes to rainfall Biarritz has more! For any rider who knows and rides around Manchester the idea of going somewhere wetter to train would be very odd! I'm originally from the Wirral (40 miles from Manchester) and my aim in life has always been to live and holiday somewhere drier.
 
Nov 30, 2010
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hmsgenoa said:
Yes a valid question, and don't forget who was dining with David Millar when he got collared, Bradley's chum David Brailsford. No smoke without fire although that doesn't constitute conclusive proof. Not a lot of people know this but guess who were staying at Dave M's pad at the same time? The GB Team Pursuit squad - they kept that one quiet didn't they?

One would like to think Bradley's clean but he's definitely taken a step forward of late, was his training not optimal before? Is it just down to more hours in the saddle?

This piece from W. Fotheringham goes into a little more detail than most...

The police came for him at 8.25pm on June 22, just as he was ordering dinner in a restaurant in the town of Bidart, just down the coast from Biarritz. There were three gendarmes in plain clothes, a little pumped up with the adrenaline of the occasion. Millar had just finished his final preparation event for the Tour de France and had driven home with Dave Brailsford, who runs Britain's lottery-funded cycling programme.

Brailsford was keeping tabs on Millar's progress as a potential Olympic medallist, and had been to watch him race in the Route du Sud; he was escorted back to Millar's flat with the rider and the police, and had to look on as the gendarmes took it apart.

I don't think it's that surprising that Brailsford was dining with Millar. Did GBR have any other top tier road men at the time? And at the time, Millar was just about the hottest property in the sport.

I do though find it hard to believe that these police searches were carried out in the presence of 5 or 6 other cyclists, who presumably would need to be eliminated from the police enquiries, without the story leaking out.

For what it's worth I think the probability that Bradley or fellow Brits on Sky are clean, is less than 50%. But I'm not sure that doping is the reason for Wiggins's variable form over the past two years. More likely is that it's taken a while to pin down exactly how to reproduce that 2009 TdF form.

In answer to the OP, yes Manchester City.
 
Captain_Cavman said:
I don't think it's that surprising that Brailsford was dining with Millar. Did GBR have any other top tier road men at the time? And at the time, Millar was just about the hottest property in the sport.

And, don't forget, the reigning world TT champion. Brailsford's job stood and fell on Olympic Medals so the fact he was checking up on one of his big chances is not surprising in the least.

As far as Wiggins/sky doping goes, in the real-world the evidence is utterly non-existent although in clinic-world where winning is evidence that might not be the case. I'm interested in debating the issues but much of this thread is based on nothing but (malicious?) speculation.
 
May 20, 2010
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Still ignoring that at that time frame, the Olympics endurance team would not be doing any endurance training of the length that required warm weather training. The endurance work would have easily been done in a velodrome, at hotter temps if required.
 
Oct 30, 2010
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I have to jump in here and give my tuppence-worth.

I appreciate I'm British and as open to accusations of jingoism as the next man, but what exactly has Wiggins done to be singled out in The Clinic? He's always maintained a strong anti-doping stance (not just stayed silent on the subject), he's had as many jour sans as great days and he has adapted himself from the track to the road trying varying techniques with varying levels of success.

All these things combined indicate someone who should not automatically come under the Clinic microscope. He was a double Olympic 4km champion so it wasn't exactly as if he came from nowhere.

Until someone can come up with a reasonable explanation as to the mechanics of Wiggins doping (W/kg etc) or note inconsistent statements on the issue, I'll take it that he's innocent. Who his team manager dined with 10 years ago doesn't amount to a hill of beans, so far as I'm concerned.

Mark
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Markyboyzx6r said:
but what exactly has Wiggins done to be singled out in The Clinic?

He's just won a race. That's how the Clinic works. "Who won today and how can we smear him?".
 
Oct 30, 2010
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In many cases The Clinic is bang on the money, but in the case of Wiggins it's hard to see where the cracks in the story are. His previous history/statements strongly indicate that he's clean, it's not like he's one of the omerta crew or talks about 'the good of cycling' or anything. He seems like an honest bloke - which I know is as sweeping a statement as one can possibly make - but if he'd been all about the money and titles he wouldn't have stayed a GBR Olympic cyclist for x2 Olympic cycles.

I'm happy for him. For once I see a cyclist who I can believe in.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Markyboyzx6r said:
I have to jump in here and give my tuppence-worth.

I appreciate I'm British and as open to accusations of jingoism as the next man, but what exactly has Wiggins done to be singled out in The Clinic? He's always maintained a strong anti-doping stance (not just stayed silent on the subject), he's had as many jour sans as great days and he has adapted himself from the track to the road trying varying techniques with varying levels of success.

All these things combined indicate someone who should not automatically come under the Clinic microscope. He was a double Olympic 4km champion so it wasn't exactly as if he came from nowhere.

Until someone can come up with a reasonable explanation as to the mechanics of Wiggins doping (W/kg etc) or note inconsistent statements on the issue, I'll take it that he's innocent. Who his team manager dined with 10 years ago doesn't amount to a hill of beans, so far as I'm concerned.

Mark

Good questions - and at least you put your nationality aside to ask the questions.

I have no idea if BW does or does not dope but to take your points:
He's always maintained a strong anti-doping stance: As we know in this sport, talk is cheap. But he has gone from "get the *******s out" in 2007 to praising Armstrong and Contador - thats quite a turn around.

"He's had as many jour sans as great days and he has adapted himself from the track to the road trying varying techniques with varying levels of success."
Obviously preparing solely for the road would see an improvement.
But he has gone from a track rider for short events (4km) to being at the pointy end of a Grand Tour, populated by other dopers.

The 'adaption' is put down to things like his weight, that he lost 7 to 8kg. But that appears somewhat exaggerated - as in this piece the aim for 2006 was to be at 75 or 76kg.
 
Sorry if I'm being stupid, but where has Contador tested positive four times like Wiggins says? Where they all at last years tour? (clenbuterol)

For the record, I think Wiggins is clean, and as someone else said, one of few towards the top 10/15 contenders you can believe in. My opinion anyway.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Poursuivant said:
Sorry if I'm being stupid, but where has Contador tested positive four times like Wiggins says? Where they all at last years tour? (clenbuterol)

Yeah. All four at the Tour, all four clenbuterol. Essentially the same offence.
 
May 6, 2011
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Dr. Maserati said:
The 'adaption' is put down to things like his weight, that he lost 7 to 8kg. But that appears somewhat exaggerated - as in this piece the aim for 2006 was to be at 75 or 76kg.

Wasn't the weight loss he spoke about during the 2009 TDF between his 2008 track weight, and his 2009 road weight?

Not sure a target weight set by a BC nutritionist in 2006 for his second GT is a particularly good indicator of his weight in 2008 (or even his actual weight in 2006).

Visually, I am sure you would agree that he lost at least some weight between 2008 and 2009. Obviously this is not a very precise methodology - are there any actual measurements available?
 
Jul 2, 2009
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VeloCity said:
OK I will admit to being totally out of the loop here - why "Wigans"? I don't get it.

It's due to an ill-advised (half joking/half serious) quote he made about potentially moving from Garmin:

"It's a bit like trying to win the Champions League and to win the Champions League you go to Manchester United and I'm probably playing at Wigan at the moment. I'll probably have to make that step to do it,"

(Wigan are a small football (soccer) team in the Premiership who are punching way above their weight, but never likely to win anything)
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Mambo95 said:
It's due to an ill-advised (half joking/half serious) quote he made about potentially moving from Garmin:

"It's a bit like trying to win the Champions League and to win the Champions League you go to Manchester United and I'm probably playing at Wigan at the moment. I'll probably have to make that step to do it,"
Ah, ok. Thanks Mambo.

Heh. That's actually kind of funny that he'd consider Team Sky as the equivalent of Man U.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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richtea said:
Wasn't the weight loss he spoke about during the 2009 TDF between his 2008 track weight, and his 2009 road weight?

Not sure a target weight set by a BC nutritionist in 2006 for his second GT is a particularly good indicator of his weight in 2008 (or even his actual weight in 2006).

Visually, I am sure you would agree that he lost at least some weight between 2008 and 2009. Obviously this is not a very precise methodology - are there any actual measurements available?

In this article from 2009 he says the 7 kg loss was "in 9 months" and that it was the same weight as Tour 07:
I was climbing fairly well in the 2007 Tour, but I've lost seven kilos since then: 78 to 71. It's taken nine months, in little increments, without any sort of crash diet.

We are relying on unprovable numbers but it if BW was 75-76 at Tour 2006 did he put on an extra 3kg for the track?

No doubt he is super skinny - but as I said earlier the 7 kg weight loss looks to be an exaggeration.
 
May 23, 2010
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VeloCity said:
Ah, ok. Thanks Mambo.

Heh. That's actually kind of funny that he'd consider Team Sky as the equivalent of Man U.

well in English cycling teams I would think it a more than fair comparison -
the team is 8th in the world rankings..
thanks