Are we psychologically ready for Merckx to ever not be the greatest?

[Libertine Seguros]

You know what he needs to do. Win Paris-Tours.

 

[Forever The Best]

Yeah, let's not forget that Pogačar lost to Vingegaard in 2022 and 2023. There's no guarantee that the current balance of power will persist in subsequent seasons. Sheer luck also plays a big role. Calm yer tits

Well Merckx was losing to Ocana in 1971 until the latter crashed out with a big lead. (and IIRC it was someone else hitting him after he got up?). Also from what I've read 1973 Vuelta also had tons of bonuses and barely any mountains, Ocana could well have beat Merckx there with a proper route too.

EDIT: Just saw that you apparently already mentioned luck.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The danger for Pogačar is that if and when he catches and passes Merckx, some won’t be ready for him to be called the GOAT. When Federer passed Sampras for career slams in 2009 (15 vs 14), he was immediately anointed the greatest. Even before they people were calling him the greatest. When Djokovic caught and passed Federer and Nadal, people weren’t and some still haven’t accepted him as the greatest.

My thinking is that the same will happen with Tadej.

The thing with Tennis is that though fitness, tactics, technology, speed and competition levels etc. have changed, the sport is still fundamentally the same and it is a lot easier to compare through eras than many others. It hasn't changed its characteristics as much as, say, football, where the things defenders could do, the quality of pitches, the concentration of talents into bigger international leagues, the Bosman ruling, and technology of boots, pads and balls have changed the sport - but it is still fundamentally the same. Nevertheless, a lot of people still balk at suggesting any of today's players are greater than Pelé, even if they've surpassed many of his achievements, simply because many of those achievements were not available to him at his time, and the nature of the game when he played made him stand out more than it would be possible for anybody to today, even with the Christ-like cults of Messi and Ronaldo that have been at each others' throats for the last decade.

Cycling is beholden to a number of outside factors as well; not only have changes in professionalism fundamentally changed the sport, tactics have been revolutionised several times, the road infrastructure that underpins the racing has developed and the technology of the bikes (and the sports science, Clinic and otherwise) has enabled far higher speeds and a far wider range of geographical options for the courses, as well as producing significant changes to the calendar, so the sport as raced today would be unrecognisable to Merckx racing at his time, and putting a finger on what Merckx would have achieved if racing today would be nigh on impossible. Likewise if Pogačar came along in Merckx's day, he'd probably have been 23-24 before he was even allowed to race in the West and would have been fighting against a well-oiled Soviet machine in the Ostbloc races, and his talent would likely not have been nurtured to the same extent, so it's impossible to tell what he may have been capable of.

It's like saying, right, who's the better driver, Fangio or Hamilton? Fangio won 5 titles, and Hamilton has more, but the sport is so fundamentally different you just can't compare them. Hamilton won many of his titles thanks to team orders, a superior car and passing aids that meant that even when he had to come from deep in the field, opposition would just let him through because they weren't expecting to race him for position; the races were all held on mostly very modern, safe and sterile autodromes or "street circuits" that are street circuits in name only, billiard-table smooth and where driver aids and computer telemetry mean much of the race can be stage managed from the pits. However, Fangio may have been competing in an era when death was a constant spectre and courses ranged from twisty two-way roads to 6 mile straights and courses were lined with trees and ditches, but he also had the opportunity to commandeer a teammate's car if his broke down, had to be good over a much smaller number of races (and only in the ones that counted as there were many non-championship rounds back then) and in some fields where very few drivers were ever going to be competitive and the overall standard of driving from the best to the worst driver on the grid was colossally higher than today.

 

[Valanga]

My goat by a mile and its not close for me. I doubt anyone actually think Merckx would beat Van der poel in flandern and the climbing numbers of Pogacar well they speak for itself their the best of all time too.

Its not close. My goat by a mile. 🐐🐐

I guess you haven't really looked up how Merckx has performed, have you?

 

[James M]

I guess you haven't really looked up how Merckx has performed, have you?

I have and people say Merckx wouldnt even beat Mas uphill today. Put him in todays era and he wont win almost anything if anything. Removing nostalgia from it I mean.

I get the achievements fine if he is someone else goat thats fine no problem dont argue that just saying Pogacar is my goat.

And to the point other has said regarding boat - best of all time its based on facts, that part is unquestionable Pogacar by big margin aswell. The Goat part is subjective like many others have said here got no problem seeing that.

 

[shadowrider]

Merckx was the greatest in his time. That's what counts. I'm convinced Merckx wouldn't end in the first hundred of the actual Tour. Even with the actual material, position on the bike, food, supplements..... At most you can compare it with contemporaries and those just before and after. Bernal has even surpassed his values from when he won the Tour in 2019. Now he is no longer even competing for a distant place of honor. Evenepoel is much better (as he declared himself) than during the Vuelta 22......... now ending at almost 10 minutes of the winner.

 

[BullsFan22]

This is like comparing Rod Laver to Djokovic/Nadal.

 

[AmRacer]

I have and people say Merckx wouldnt even beat Mas uphill today. Put him in todays era and he wont win almost anything if anything. Removing nostalgia from it I mean.

I get the achievements fine if he is someone else goat thats fine no problem dont argue that just saying Pogacar is my goat.

And to the point other has said regarding boat - best of all time its based on facts, that part is unquestionable Pogacar by big margin aswell. The Goat part is subjective like many others have said here got no problem seeing that.

If you put a rider from before in today's era, the rider would of course have same benefits from today's equipment, nutrition, training etc.

 

[James M]

If you put a rider from before in today's era, the rider would of course have same benefits from today's equipment, nutrition, training etc.

Its in this discussion more a aspect of more competition than anything else which isn't comparable. But also dominance over time in greatness terms which Merckx rules in still yes.

Pogacar is my goat and many others already and Merckx is also many peoples goat. As I said its subjective it can go on forever, im totally fine with Merckx beeing some peoples goat, I see it no problem and if I witnessed him a lot maybe he would be mine too who knows hard to say.

The boat part is simply just facts though and unquestionable Tadej Pogacar.

 

[Berniece]

I'm convinced Merckx wouldn't end in the first hundred of the actual Tour. Even with the actual material, position on the bike, food, supplements.....

Based on what?

 

[Froome]

Based on what?

Based in a assumption. There's no point in comparing if Merckx was going to be better than the top riders if he raced today, or the opposite.

There is a lot of pros and cons in each era. Maybe Merckx was going to push 7 w/kg in 40 minutes in this era with the things these top riders have access. Certainly Contador or Andy Schleck would push more watts today in the climbs.

I don't know what the hell is that thing of "BOAT", this is cycling, not fishing.

There is no need to make things difficult. Since there is pros and cons in every year, it's always easy compare palmares to see who is the greatest or the best of all time.

Merckx is the number one by far.

Pogacar entered yesterday in the top 10 riders of all time, looking at the palmares.

 

[James M]

I don't know what the hell is that thing of "BOAT", this is cycling, not fishing.

Boat is the best rider of all time and that is Tadej Pogacar and its based on factual numbers. You learn something new every day aye.

For the reason you said its different eras cant compare it but if you make it easy you ask yourself who is the best of all time and that is unquestionable Tadej Pogacar.

Goat this goat that everyone from different eras will always have different goats. Its subjective cant be based on facts that is all

 

[Berniece]

For the reason you said its different eras cant compare it but if you make it easy you ask yourself who is the best of all time and that is unquestionable Tadej Pogacar.

Goat this goat that everyone from different eras will always have different goats. Its subjective cant be based on facts that is all

It's not really subjective, you can just compare how dominant a rider was and his palmares. Pogacar doesn't come close, yet.

 

[James M]

It's not really subjective, you can just compare how dominant a rider was and his palmares. Pogacar doesn't come close, yet.

Its not that easy you cant compare it like that when its so different eras and competition is night and day it doesnt work like that. It only works like that if you want it too work like that, big picture its not alone and how this is judged upon. - Ask yourself Pogacar what he would do to them he would win every race he entered thats just bottom line this is frankly a stupid discussion and Merckx would struggle to get top 100in the tour today most likely not who knows but yeah. Tell yourself what you want its subjective depends on how you value and differentiate it thats just it.

Anyway done with this is subjective thats what it is. Enough people clearly already crowned him the goat ill go with that and he is my aswell if anyone else have Merckx as I said I get that too maybe I would have him as mine as I said if I watched him alot who knows. In all honesty since goat is so subjective i dont really care who is whos people goat i much rather like who is the best of all time and that so happens to be easy to judge aswell and that is Tadej Pogacar

 

[Berniece]

why is this hard ? Its not that easy you cant compare it like that when its so different eras and competition is night and day it doesnt work like that. It only works like that if you want it too work like that, big picture its not alone and how this is judged upon. - Ask yourself Pogacar what he would do to them he would win every race he entered thats just bottom line this is frankly a stupid discussion and Merckx would struggle to get top 100in the tour today most likely not who knows but yeah. Tell yourself what you want its subjective depends on how you value and differentiate it thats just it.

Anyway done with this is subjective thats what it is. Enough people clearly already crowned him the goat ill go with that and he is my aswell if anyone else have Merckx as I said I get that too maybe I would have him as mine as I said if I watched him alot who knows. In all honesty since goat is so subjective i dont really care who is whos people goat i much rather like who is the best of all time and that so happens to be easy to judge aswell and that is Tadej Pogacar

You can say he's the goat but that doesn't make it true, just because it's easier for you to say it's "subjective". It isn't subjective, there are metrics we can use to compare. Pogacar hasn't shown the same level of dominance or palmares as Merckx. He needs more seasons like this one to be called the goat. I think he might be able to, it's just way too early.

 

[hrotha]

Vingegaard only won 2 GT's.

One when Pogacar started the race with a fracture on his wrist. The other one when he was a domestique, you calm your tits I think. Its not hard to be realistic or even correct.

Surely saying "you guys are jumping the gun, it's too early to tell, let's wait and see how things pan out" is the exact opposite of needing your tits calmed

Also lol

 

[James M]

You can say he's the goat but that doesn't make it true, just because it's easier for you to say it's "subjective". It isn't subjective, there are metrics we can use to compare. Pogacar hasn't shown the same level of dominance or palmares as Merckx. He needs more seasons like this one to be called the goat. I think he might be able to, it's just way too early.

Agree on dominance on years I give that easy to Merckx. Palmares Merckx too its just when you look behind the curtain we disagree and you can look at it differently.

Look its no argument for me if Merckx are your goat or other peoples goat that's fine, I see it I really do no problem.
Its different measuring sticks on this aswell and different eras will always no matter sport be like that - Bill Russel is goat over MIchael Jordan you agree or disagree? You see what I mean by going palmares alone?

But Pogacar at the same time is also 25 true, but on paper we agree my man, on paper Merckx is the goat and I got no problem if he is some peoples goat just as Pogacar are some peoples goat already I just dont think its a conclusion to goat since we dont measure it on numbers but thats just me and if you go solely on palmares alone he got some catching up to do there yes.

 

[hrotha]

Ok real talk. Let's consider the retconned hour record before the unified record became a thing, one of the few ways to draw more or less meaningful comparisons across different eras. Merckx was barely beaten by one of the best specialists of the modern era (Boardman), with all the advantages in training, nutrition, equipment and medicine which that entails, and then by some dude (Sosenka) who had all of that and was also demonstrably a heavy user (and he wasn't beaten by all that much either). There's no reason to believe Merckx wouldn't do well in modern cycling

 

[James M]

But indeed @Berniece lets give him time, he is still only 25. I dont disagree with what your saying but talking about it and value it slightly different that is all. - For the same reason B. Russel is not the goat and Jordan is in basketball.

And I dont really care about goat this goat that but he is clearly already up there from everyone I hear talk about him and at age 25 thats cool regardless if he is 2 or 3 for some.(also heard so many on youtube, huge cycling profiles on IG etc have him as the goat already) Its nevertheless cool.

Lance Armstrong on Tadej Pogacar: "He is one of the 3 best cyclists of all time"

Lance Armstrong has been one of those who during the Tour de France has jumped on the bandwagon of the wave of criticism towards Tadej Pogacar for being "greedy". However, the American has finally cap...

cyclinguptodate.com

 

[tobydawq]

Nevermind it was just an idle joke about your lost avatar bet. Let's just drop lt.

I haven't lost an avatar bet

 

[dgodave]

EM himself could not at all race EM's calendar these days. Theres too much depth in the peloton. The overall level is way higher.

So palmares dont tell the whole story. You have to factor in other things which dont lend themselves immediately to objective measurement.

As for me, I'm quite ready. But I'm also not as personally attached to cycling lore as many others, so I have less at stake.

 

[dercuforever]

Vingegaard only won 2 GT's.

One when Pogacar started the race with a fracture on his wrist. The other one when he was a domestique, you calm your tits I think. Its not hard to be realistic or even correct.

If I was pogacar I would be more worried about Remco coming years than Vingegaard which never been a threat in realistic terms if Pog is 100%. Remco might get to that level if he continue to improve and he is 24 and more likely to improve and take more strides than Vingegaard.

[[content deleted]]

Until march, almost NO ONE would realistically bet against Vingegaard in the tour de France. Combloux was something a fully fit Pogacar never did even come close to realize in his carreer.
And even after the incredible performance Pogacar did in the TDF, may I remind you that a "half dead 3 months ago" Vingegaard was better than his 2023 version. Him doing 5% better watts next year wouldn't surprise me more than what he did while being beaten by Pogacar.

 

[Barkintheeye]

This is like comparing Rod Laver to Djokovic/Nadal.

Or comparing Jack Dempsey w Tyson or Sugar Ray Robinson w Floyd Mayweather Jr.

If assuming Merckx could have participated in this year’s Tour in his prime (wormhole) and even join one of the stronger teams (let’s say Ineos) and get the absolute best equipment and support he would not have stood a chance.

On the other hand if he had grown up in this era and opted for cycling he most likely would have been very competitive. Equal or better than Pog? We shall never know.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I don't know what the hell is that thing of "BOAT", this is cycling, not fishing.

Its like titles and records in athletics. Despite other runners being more accomplished (greater) its clear that Kiptum had the best level ever in marathon (unfortunately past tense) and nobody downplays it saying ancient guys would beat him. This improvement is also the result of sports evolution of course, thriving to get better with time.

While cycling has no official records there are objective methods to measure performance. BOAT Is just a name, it could be FOAT (fastest...). I am willing to admit that Vingo is in a very small group of the best climbers ever (despite relatively modest achievements compared to some past greats) and will be the best ever if he beats Pogacar at the Tour next year with similar (or higher than this year) performance level.

 

[Froome]

While cycling has no official records there are objective methods to measure performance. BOAT Is just a name, it could be FOAT (fastest...). I am willing to admit that Vingo is one of the best climbers ever (despite relatively modest achievements compared to some past greats) and will be the best ever if he beats Pogacar at the Tour next year with similar (or higher than this year) performance level.

It's very hard to say that. Probably Pantani would do better numbers today if he had access these things. (I never thought saying something like this).

Guys like Contador or Andy Schleck could even push better numbers in this era.