Armstrong Accuses LeMond of Doping!

[Realist]

...what may be missing here is that Krebs cycle, being an academic, is loath to go beyond the data directly at hand...though the use of the word magically is interesting...and the athlete he is talking about is LeMond using test scores LeMond himself brings to the table...

Assuming krebs cycle is still an academic, I know for a fact that there are at least four active academics on this forum just in the few threads I've paid attention to and we all have divergent opinions, knowledge, epistemology and approaches to data.

 

[Realist]

Assuming krebs cycle is still an academic,

Nb: This is not a barb, just not sure what he/she does. Some people move out into consulting or similar.

 

[dbrower]

Of course it was possible, it's also possible that LeMond was a doper, but dealing with "possibilities" is just silly. Did either of them actually happen?

Good. You admit it is possible, which is all the complaint I had about the earlier position:

it was also logistically challenging, if not impossible.

I agree there's no known evidence of blood doping, yet it was known as a technique, and it was possible to do -- maybe because the advantages weren't as widely known as they are now, possibly because the EPO era was starting, making it unattractive in comparison. But not impossible.

Saying there is no evidence of blood doping in GT riders in the 80s is different than saying it didn't happen. There was no evidence that Landis did oxygen vector doping until May, and those same admissions may not count as evidence against Armstrong.

Yes, LeMond was a freak, but Landis was a freak with a VO2max of 90+ as well, so freakishness itself doesn't seem like much of a hinge to put a lever against.

I'll certainly agree that the current round of "LeMond doped" mud is a viral PR strategy by Camp Armstrong with little evidence. But the basic plausibility of the assertions is present, to a lesser extent than the plausibility of the claims that have been made against Armstrong.

In the words of Bill Hue, "LeMond doped" is a dancing monkey that has been thrown into the debate to distract attention from the more relevant issues.

-dB

 

[Epicycle]

There was no evidence that Landis did oxygen vector doping until May....

Not true. There were the Vaughters-Andreu IM, Floyd's hematocrit rise during the 2006 Tour, the circumstances around that info being revealed, his soft pedaling the Dauphine in 2006...I'm sure you will find reasons to discount that stuff but the point is that there is nothing like that concerning GT riders blood packing in the 1980s. Nothing specific to GT contenders. With all that has come out you'd think there would be some inkling of it revealed if it happened.

 

[poupou]

We all know the influence of blood doping on performance. Even with rudimentary blood transfusion the performances go up as we have seen it in 1984.
TDF performances done during the 80's were consistent with technical, nutrition and training progress. I don't notice something strange. So, yes blood transfusion could have been used, especially before TDF, but we have no direct or indirect indication of its use.

 

[Race Radio]

Not true. There were the Vaughters-Andreu IM, Floyd's hematocrit rise during the 2006 Tour, the circumstances around that info being revealed, his soft pedaling the Dauphine in 2006...I'm sure you will find reasons to discount that stuff but the point is that there is nothing like that concerning GT riders blood packing in the 1980s. Nothing specific to GT contenders. With all that has come out you'd think there would be some inkling of it revealed if it happened.

I heard the story about Floyd watching the fridge at least 5 years ago. The same guys who helped DB promote the smoke and mirrors of Floyd's defense were well aware of it but chose instead to intentionally mislead the public and the legal system.

 

[python]

trained jurists and scientist usually don't employ black and white reasoning like 'impossible' or can't happen. they speak in probability/likelihood terms.

so, yes it was possible the gt riders in the 70s and 80s could have blood doped, particularly for the start of a three week event, however, looking at the totality of the issue (the state of blood transfusion science and practice, storage and preservation advances, epo introduction dateline, contemporary evidence, racing schedules density etc) i feel comfortable that blood doping during a gt was unlikely.

keep in mind that virtually all known blood transfusion protocols that were outed in the 90s and 00s, were augmented by and combined with epo. it was simply not available in 70s and 80s.

without the epo augmentation a human (on the average but it varies) takes 55-60 days to rebuild the rbc population after a donated unit. various epo protocols can speed it up by at least a factor of 2.

hence, the biggest difference between the 80s and 90s.

unlikely, is the operative word here. impossibility is the wrong word.

 

[mortailcoil]

First they built him up -- a vast constitution of perceptions. Now they want to tear it down.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Good. You admit it is possible, which is all the complaint I had about the earlier position:
..............
I agree there's no known evidence of blood doping, yet it was known as a technique, and it was possible to do -- maybe because the advantages weren't as widely known as they are now, possibly because the EPO era was starting, making it unattractive in comparison. But not impossible.

Saying there is no evidence of blood doping in GT riders in the 80s is different than saying it didn't happen. There was no evidence that Landis did oxygen vector doping until May, and those same admissions may not count as evidence against Armstrong.

Yes, LeMond was a freak, but Landis was a freak with a VO2max of 90+ as well, so freakishness itself doesn't seem like much of a hinge to put a lever against.

I'll certainly agree that the current round of "LeMond doped" mud is a viral PR strategy by Camp Armstrong with little evidence. But the basic plausibility of the assertions is present, to a lesser extent than the plausibility of the claims that have been made against Armstrong.

In the words of Bill Hue, "LeMond doped" is a dancing monkey that has been thrown into the debate to distract attention from the more relevant issues.

-dB

Of course it is possible (anything is possible) -but there has never been even as much as a rumor that 'blood transfusions' were used for road cyclists even after numerous investigations and confessions*.

As you point out 'blood doping' appears to have been accepted with the introduction of EPO.

_______________
*Cycling's first introduction with 'blood transfusions' was the USA Olympic team in 1984-this was investigated by the US Olympic Committee, and no other riders were involved.

Moser's hour record in 1985 was aided by 'blood transfusions'- all of was all brought to light in the Donati Report, including blood doping in other sports - yet none on road riders.

The investigations in to the PDM team in Holland or the Festina team in France - none highlighted 'blood transfusions'.

In the books and confessions of riders from the 80/90's period - Kimmage, Fignon, Voet, Peiper, Mentheour, Rooks, Delion, Parkin, Theunisse, Gaumont, Museeuw, Riis ....none said anything about 'blood transfusions' in cycling.


Certainly - Floyd & Greg are 'freaks', but Lemond was riding in an era without EPO and with its introduction his performance declined. Floyd was riding during a period which we now know was fueled by a range of PED's.

 

[alpine_chav]

I'm not saying it's ok to dope, I'm just saying that I'm past caring of doped riders in cycling.

And what's going to happen when Lance gets convicted of doping? Are they going to strip away his victories from him? What are they going to do then? Give the victories to the likes of Jan Ullrich?

Might as well strip away all the victories of Eddy Merckx as well. The guy was clearly doped.

the voice of reason. rare these days

 

[Anonymous]

the voice of reason. rare these days

But assholes seem to be plentiful, go figure?

 

[buckwheat]

Good. You admit it is possible, which is all the complaint I had about the earlier position:


I agree there's no known evidence of blood doping, yet it was known as a technique, and it was possible to do -- maybe because the advantages weren't as widely known as they are now, possibly because the EPO era was starting, making it unattractive in comparison. But not impossible.

Saying there is no evidence of blood doping in GT riders in the 80s is different than saying it didn't happen. There was no evidence that Landis did oxygen vector doping until May, and those same admissions may not count as evidence against Armstrong.

Yes, LeMond was a freak, but Landis was a freak with a VO2max of 90+ as well, so freakishness itself doesn't seem like much of a hinge to put a lever against.

I'll certainly agree that the current round of "LeMond doped" mud is a viral PR strategy by Camp Armstrong with little evidence. But the basic plausibility of the assertions is present, to a lesser extent than the plausibility of the claims that have been made against Armstrong.

In the words of Bill Hue, "LeMond doped" is a dancing monkey that has been thrown into the debate to distract attention from the more relevant issues.

-dB

Are Flying Saucers possible?

Once again, the question isn't one of probability, the question is, "did it happen?"

 

[RTMcFadden]

If you were able to read more then Wikipedia you would know that the sale of EPO was held up because of multiple court cases and patent issues. The first shipments were available 3 weeks before the start of the Tour that year and even then it was limited quantities to specific doctors. Their revenues that year were .017% of what they are today.

Do you have any actual evidence or just hopes and dreams? I know the idea of evidence is hard to comprehend but maybe if you read slowly....comprehend.....comment intelligently

Can speak for him, but I can speak for myself. EPO was first commerically produced in 1986.

 

[pnwrider]

In 1989, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone, called Epogen, which remains in use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin

And also.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/drugsatfda/index.cfm?fuseaction=Search.DrugDetails

Not sure if that FDA link is persistent:

Original Approval or Tentative Approval Date June 1, 1989

So conceivably, Greg could have used it, but seriously, if he was on EPO, wouldn't he have been kicking the **** out of everyone in the mountains?

 

[dbrower]

Are Flying Saucers possible?

Once again, the question isn't one of probability, the question is, "did it happen?"

It probably didn't happen.

-dB

 

[red_flanders]

I'll certainly agree that the current round of "LeMond doped" mud is a viral PR strategy by Camp Armstrong with little evidence. But the basic plausibility of the assertions is present, to a lesser extent than the plausibility of the claims that have been made against Armstrong.

Point of clarification. Is there any evidence? I've never seen any and have been closely following cycling for 30 years. Literally none, ever. That's amazing. Think about it.

You also say "a lesser extent". That's a pretty serious understatement. The difference between none and overwhelming cannot credibly be characterized as "a lesser extent".

It seems within the body of disclaimers, some backhanded slags against LeMond are in play. Am I misreading something or is there a long-standing agenda at play here? Seems like it would take some time to evolve the insinuations with no evidence ploy in this way.

 

[theswordsman]

I don't believe that LeMond doped, and I definitely believe that it's the typical Armstrong attack trying to sling mud at people who make accusations against him. Some times he does so by projecting his own bad behavior onto someone else, like telling the world Contador was a bad teammate at the TdF.

I just wanted to add a bit of a time frame to blood doping. I followed the 1976 Montreal Olympics really closely, especially Track & Field events. Lasse Viren won both the 5000 & 10,000 meter races, duplicating his 1972 effort. Stories about him were the first place I ever saw the term "blood doping". This from a Sports Illustrated at the time:

Of contemporary sorcerers, one stands alone. Lasse Viren, now 27, in perfection of that other fine Finnish tradition of running long distances, won the 5,000 and 10,000 meters in the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich. In 1976, in Montreal, he won both races again, a defense never before accomplished. In Moscow in 1980 Lasse Viren will run yet again and may well win twice more. But the circumstances of Viren's career and character—his many poor races in non-Olympic competition, his carefully kept privacy, his mildly sarcastic way with curious reporters—have evoked a storm of accusations. It is said that his medals were won with the help of "blood doping," a misleading term for an experimental technique whereby some of an athlete's blood is withdrawn and the oxygen-carrying hemoglobin extracted and stored. When the athlete's system has regenerated the missing red blood cells in a few weeks, the hemoglobin is returned, giving the recipient a higher concentration than can occur naturally. Since distance running depends on oxygen-carrying capacity, the runner, theoretically, prospers.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1092549/index.htm

Again, I'm not saying that Greg did it, or even that Lasse Viren did it, I'm just pointing out that the practice was known to Sports Illustrated and Olympic fans in 1976.

 

[Boeing]

I met up with a business social LA fan boy the other day. I do not like confrontation in the work place so I tried to keep LA discussions general as in 'well all his rivals were doing it and he was that much faster than them so I don't know'.... pass the sugar....


He took it as an invitation to bash LeMond. " well Lemond beat fignon and we all know fignon doped"

Dude didn't even know LF had passed away rolling eyes like wow they will make up anything

I just walked away thinking (no wonder Karl Roves spin works on our electorate here in the US)

 

[buckwheat]

I met up with a business social LA fan boy the other day. I do not like confrontation in the work place so I tried to keep LA discussions general as in 'well all his rivals were doing it and he was that much faster than them so I don't know'.... pass the sugar....


He took it as an invitation to bash LeMond. " well Lemond beat fignon and we all know fignon doped"

Dude didn't even know LF had passed away rolling eyes like wow they will make up anything

I just walked away thinking (no wonder Karl Roves spin works on our electorate here in the US)

Ha! You're in the "reality based community?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community

 

[Tubeless]

I don't believe that LeMond doped, and I definitely believe that it's the typical Armstrong attack trying to sling mud at people who make accusations against him. Some times he does so by projecting his own bad behavior onto someone else, like telling the world Contador was a bad teammate at the TdF.

I just wanted to add a bit of a time frame to blood doping. I followed the 1976 Montreal Olympics really closely, especially Track & Field events. Lasse Viren won both the 5000 & 10,000 meter races, duplicating his 1972 effort. Stories about him were the first place I ever saw the term "blood doping". This from a Sports Illustrated at the time:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1092549/index.htm

Again, I'm not saying that Greg did it, or even that Lasse Viren did it, I'm just pointing out that the practice was known to Sports Illustrated and Olympic fans in 1976.

While he's never admitted it, it is widely believed that Lasse Viren was one of the first athletes to use blood doping. Curiously, he was one of the earliest athletes to list a doctor (Mr Pekka Peltokallio) as part of his support staff.

Autologous blood doping was used widely in cross-country skiing in the 1980's - by at least Italian, Finnish, Russian and Norwegian skiers, typically organized by the national team doctors. It's a known fact that the US Cycling team used homologous blood doping in the 1984 Olympics. Blood doping did not become a banned doping method until 1986.

Earliest known use of EPO is from the early 1990's.

So if Greg Lemond used any blood doping method, it would have been autologous blood doping - not EPO. There's no proof or even rumor of this happening. Circumstantial evidence would include an involvement of a doctor like Dr Ferrari and subpar performances earlier in other races - not applicable to Greg. And since EPO wasn't available to quickly recover from blood extractions, cyclists in the 1980's most likely had only one blood bag available during the tour, limiting its effect. Armstrong & his team is believed to have consumed up to 3 blood bags per TdF.

 

[Ferminal]

We still haven't found out the truth about '89?

 

[Oldman]

I'll certainly agree that the current round of "LeMond doped" mud is a viral PR strategy by Camp Armstrong with little evidence. But the basic plausibility of the assertions is present, to a lesser extent than the plausibility of the claims that have been made against Armstrong.

In the words of Bill Hue, "LeMond doped" is a dancing monkey that has been thrown into the debate to distract attention from the more relevant issues.

-dB

First of all, I like dancing monkeys so it's always fun to throw that into a junior high school debate.
This isn't a junior high school debate and the "basic plausibility" is about as plausible as Lemond having rockets up his a*s. The PDM affair taught us alot about how well they could maintain a medical program during a GT and it's doubtful Lemond would have used it as a standard practice. If he did it once I guess he'd have cheated...once. That's as plausible as it gets from the practical perspective. Lance seeking solace in that feeble PR ploy is really, really desparate.

 

[blutto]

In 1989, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone, called Epogen, which remains in use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin

And also.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/drugsatfda/index.cfm?fuseaction=Search.DrugDetails

Not sure if that FDA link is persistent:

Original Approval or Tentative Approval Date June 1, 1989

So conceivably, Greg could have used it, but seriously, if he was on EPO, wouldn't he have been kicking the **** out of everyone in the mountains?

....ran across this little bit of info....you might find it interesting...and maybe changes the time-frame...

`
In 1988 the German pharmaceutical company, Boehringer Mannheim (now part of the Roche Group) produced its own recombinant erythropoietin; epoetin-beta, marketed as NeoRecormon.


Cheers

blutto

 

[Parfaitement Passable]

Who cares if Armstrong doped? Eddy Merckx tested positive 3 times and yet everyone still considers him a hero.

Yeah, but remember that the drugs that riders took back then were taken by absolutely everyone. An average rider would never beat a great one, even if the average rider was doping. Since EPO it's now possible for an average rider to consistently win stages and races. Do not underestimate EPO, it's an incredible wonder-drug that changes entire physiologies- and that goes against the laws of nature and genetics. That's the difference here. Merckx, Coppi, Anquetil, Fignon, Hinault, Bartali, Girardengo, Binda have all doped, but what they took was pathetically insignificant compared to EPO.