Armstrong Accuses LeMond of Doping!

[blutto]

Do you really expect anyone to believe that Lemond somehow got his hands on an unapproved drug? Why is it that when that drug was approved and available in the Peloton he suddenly went backward?

I suppose it is possible that Greg won because he was given secret powers by space aliens, but so far there is no evidence of that either.

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...no that is not the point ...the point was and still is that the drug was approved and available in 1989 ( and the clinical trials would have preceded that date by several years...so knowledge of the drug and its useage protocol would have been widespread within the medical community by 1989 )...and that is the year Mr. LeMond won the tour and the world championship is it not...could you at least have the courtesy to read the post material that you are arguing against...

..this forum stuff is really not that difficult...read slowly...comprehend...comment intelligently...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

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...no that is not the point ...the point was and still is that the drug was approved and available in 1989 ( and the clinical trials would have preceded that date by several years...so knowledge of the drug and its useage protocol would have been widespread within the medical community by 1989 )...and that is the year Mr. LeMond won the tour and the world championship is it not...could you at least have the courtesy to read the post material that you are arguing against...

..this forum stuff is really not that difficult...read slowly...comprehend...comment intelligently...

Cheers

blutto

If you were able to read more then Wikipedia you would know that the sale of EPO was held up because of multiple court cases and patent issues. The first shipments were available 3 weeks before the start of the Tour that year and even then it was limited quantities to specific doctors. Their revenues that year were .017% of what they are today.

Do you have any actual evidence or just hopes and dreams? I know the idea of evidence is hard to comprehend but maybe if you read slowly....comprehend.....comment intelligently

 

[blutto]

If you were able to read more then Wikipedia you would know that the sale of EPO was held up because of multiple court cases and patent issues. The first shipments were available 3 weeks before the start of the Tour that year and even then it was limited quantities to specific doctors. Their revenues that year were .017% of what they are today.

Do you have any actual evidence or just hopes and dreams? I know the idea of evidence is hard to comprehend but maybe if you read slowly....comprehend.....comment intelligently

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.....this is so cool...within the space of just a few posts the date that EPO "was available" has moved from the mid 1990's to 1989...this gentlemen is what I would call progress...but at least we can now agree that there are some possibilities here to explain miracles...

...now if you care to go, there are some very interesting posts in another thread by Krebs cycle concerning some VO2 Max tests undertaken by Greg LeMond...no evidence of fire but there are some whiffs of smoke....

...thank you for continued patience...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

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.....this is so cool...within the space of just a few posts the date that EPO "was available" has moved from the mid 1990's to 1989...this gentlemen is what I would call progress...but at least we can now agree that there are some possibilities here to explain miracles...

...now if you care to go, there are some very interesting posts in another thread by Krebs cycle concerning some VO2 Max tests undertaken by Greg LeMond...no evidence of fire but there are some whiffs of smoke....

...thank you for continued patience...

Cheers

blutto

Ahhh, I get it. Just a troll.

Let us know when you have something besides fantasy and Public Strategy talking points.

 

[Captain Serious]

I think I've missed something: why are federal investigators are getting involved in the Amrstrong/Landis thing? I don't get it? Is it about fraud? If so, how has anyone defrauded the American public? If no one answers me, I'll start another thread

 

[SilentAssassin]

Sad that Lemond doped during one of his wins. I mean he only had 3 wins at that. Maybe Lemond's biggest mental issue isn't the child molestation he suffered, but denial.

 

[red_flanders]

Sad that Lemond doped during one of his wins. I mean he only had 3 wins at that. Maybe Lemond's biggest mental issue isn't the child molestation he suffered, but denial.

Get some help. You really are a sick, petty little child.

 

[blutto]

Ahhh, I get it. Just a troll.

Let us know when you have something besides fantasy and Public Strategy talking points.

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...so let me get this straight...your position is starting to look shaky...you conceed a major point....what to do?...lets trot out the troll smokescreen and head for the hills....I mean did you actually check out the Krebs cycle postings?...because in one absolutely breath-taking quote our boy Greg may have admitted something that doesn't really square with his squeaky clean public persona...or do you already know what is going on there just as you somehow know the talking points from Public Strategy...that smell that is wafting thru the air is your Greg fanboy dreams going up in smoke isn't it....

...and as long as we are plumbing the depths of your vast knowledge please explain to me how Greg goes from really sucking early in the '89 Giro to placing 2nd in the last time-trial( and then winning the Tour)...the official reason has always been injections of an iron supplement but which subsequent studies have shown to have limited positive effect on athletic performance...but such injections are absolutely critical for the use of something else ...can you guess what that might be...and yes I admit this is no smoking gun but the circumstantial stuff is slowly piling up....and all I'm hoping for is a reasonable discussion on the subject....the VO2 discussion yielded that,why can't it happen here...

Cheers

blutto

 

[ThaiPanda]

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...so let me get this straight...your position is starting to look shaky...you conceed a major point....what to do?...lets trot out the troll smokescreen and head for the hills....
blutto

Ding Ding. We have a winner.

Yours Truly,
Mongkut (special CN forum troll/unpaid Public Strategy plant/sick puppy/Alphonse/Chris/willfully stupid)

 

[Race Radio]

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...so let me get this straight...your position is starting to look shaky...you conceed a major point....what to do?...lets trot out the troll smokescreen and head for the hills....I mean did you actually check out the Krebs cycle postings?...because in one absolutely breath-taking quote our boy Greg may have admitted something that doesn't really square with his squeaky clean public persona...or do you already know what is going on there just as you somehow know the talking points from Public Strategy...that smell that is wafting thru the air is your Greg fanboy dreams going up in smoke isn't it....

...and as long as we are plumbing the depths of your vast knowledge please explain to me how Greg goes from really sucking early in the '89 Giro to placing 2nd in the last time-trial( and then winning the Tour)...the official reason has always been injections of an iron supplement but which subsequent studies have shown to have limited positive effect on athletic performance...but such injections are absolutely critical for the use of something else ...can you guess what that might be...and yes I admit this is no smoking gun but the circumstantial stuff is slowly piling up....and all I'm hoping for is a reasonable discussion on the subject....the VO2 discussion yielded that,why can't it happen here...

Cheers

blutto

My position was in no way "shaky" nor did I concede any point. it was clear that you are a troll with talking points directly from the smear campaign.

Of course with your limited knowledge you would not know that the need for iron supplementation with EPO use was not something that was known until EPO had been on the market for years.

It must drive you crazy that you are unable to come up with any evidence of Lemond doping. None. It sure drove Armstrong crazy. He, and Johann, canvased former teammates and support staff in a effort to find one who would say that Lemond doped. So he could make good on his threat to find "10 people who will say you used EPO" They found none. They thought they had a bite when a former teammate who needed cash who would invent the lie for some cash, the offer grew from 25k euros to 50 then finally 150K. Ultimately he would not lie for cash.

It clearly drives you nuts that you cannot find anything on him. Your willingness to embarrass yourself only makes it worse.

 

[blutto]

My position was in no way "shaky" nor did I concede any point. it was clear that you are a troll with talking points directly from the smear campaign.

Of course with your limited knowledge you would not know that the need for iron supplementation with EPO use was not something that was known until EPO had been on the market for years.
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....the shaky part refered to your rather abrupt change in time-frame for the introduction of EPO ...and it would seem that you are still having trouble with that time-frame...ergo...the clinical trials process that preceeds the approval and subseqent introduction of a drug goes on for a long time...among other things it is a test of both the drug's effectiveness and of the usage protocols...I mean do you really think that the medical community would wait for the years to figure out that iron supplements were a possible requirement for effective use of EPO ( yes it did take the cycling community some years to figure it out but that is more a refelection of the quacks who were administrating it )...that knowledge was part of the usage protocol that was being tested in the clinical trials....another interesting part of the clinical trial stage in the development of drugs is getting the medical community as a whole involved in helping determine where and how it will be used...the upshot of that is news of this drug, and its usage protocols were well known thru-out the medical community well before it was officially introduced...and not initially figured out by cyclists...

....which brings me back to Krebs cycle postings...have you looked at them yet?....and could you please, since you have such a broad understanding of the field, please post those talking points you refer to ...or is that just swamp gas ....

...looking forward to your next post with bated breath...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

Public Strategies Talking points

Still no evidence I see, let us know when you have something.

 

[Benotti69]

...the fact still stands...1989 may, as Mr. Armstrong pointed out, have some very interesting connotations...

Let us not look at the interesting connotations in the evidence of Armstrongs doping history, which are readily available in at least 2 books published on the matter, ie failed doping tests, sworn testimonies, missing doctors etc....a long list of interesting connotations.


Let's look at some common denominator evidence, the low brow evidence ok? just for you.

When did Lance Armstrong ever speak out about doping practices in Pro Cycling? He chased down a fellow pro that refused to lie in court when asked about a Doping Doctor who Armstrong was using at the time. He also hounded another cyclist out of the TdF that gave an honest interview to a paper about what he thought was the reality in the peloton.

Greg LeMond has always spoken out against doping in Pro Cycling.

there you go. some of the lowest common denominator of evidence against and for.

if that doesn't scream who is pro doping and who is anti, well we all know what side you are batting for.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Sad that Lemond doped during one of his wins. I mean he only had 3 wins at that. Maybe Lemond's biggest mental issue isn't the child molestation he suffered, but denial.

So he doped in '89, but not subsequently? Or what?

Please enlighten me.

 

[blutto]

...ok...since no one is going to look at the Krebs cycle postings let me lay it out for you...

...these posting talk about two VO2 tests that Greg mentions in an interview...the one test yields a value of 79, the other test, done much later ( 1989 to be exact ) yields a test score of 92/93 ( which has Greg saying something along the lines of ..see see I'm among the greatest of all time...)...the discussion,to which Krebs cycle contributes to, tries to deal with/explain that massive jump in VO2...to say it is, on face value, nothing short of miraculous is an understatement...and yes the case for help from the heavens is not a slam-dunk but there is some other information that bears on this ...proof in performance...

...LeMond,while a good time-trialer was never dominant prior to 1989 in the way Merkx,Hinault or Indurain were ( in a weird coincidence Lance's early VO2 followed a similar trajectory to LeMond's...from high 70's to dominance...and the efficiency test that attemplted to paper over that jump in performance was blown out of the water )...and I would think that a "best ever" level VO2 would be especially valuable in something like the TT...but oddly no dominance ...until late in his career when LeMond was so confident in his TT abilities that he was actually going to go after the Hour Record....

....your moves....this is starting to be real fun...but methinks I have to reload the proverbial shotgun...and would someone please refill the barrel...

Cheers

blutto

 

[redtreviso]

...ok...since no one is going to look at the Krebs cycle postings let me lay it out for you...

...these posting talk about two VO2 tests that Greg mentions in an interview...the one test yields a value of 79, the other test, done much later ( 1989 to be exact ) yields a test score of 92/93 ( which has Greg saying something along the lines of ..see see I'm among the greatest of all time...)...the discussion,to which Krebs cycle contributes to, tries to deal with/explain that massive jump in VO2...to say it is, on face value, nothing short of miraculous is an understatement...and yes the case for help from the heavens is not a slam-dunk but there is some other information that bears on this ...proof in performance...

...LeMond,while a good time-trialer was never dominant prior to 1989 in the way Merkx,Hinault or Indurain were ( in a weird coincidence Lance's early VO2 followed a similar trajectory to LeMond's...from high 70's to dominance...and the efficiency test that attemplted to paper over that jump in performance was blown out of the water )...and I would think that a "best ever" level VO2 would be especially valuable in something like the TT...but oddly no dominance ...until late in his career when LeMond was so confident in his TT abilities that he was actually going to go after the Hour Record....

....your moves....this is starting to be real fun...but methinks I have to reload the proverbial shotgun...and would someone please refill the barrel...

Cheers

blutto

LeMond won Lac-de-Vassivière ITT in 85 and 90...No sudden discovery of ability

 

[Anonymous]

Ding Ding. We have a winner.

Yours Truly,
Mongkut (special CN forum troll/unpaid Public Strategy plant/sick puppy/Alphonse/Chris/willfully stupid)

What is a Chris?

So was Lemond doping back in 86-90?

 

[guilder]

The defense of Lemond while simultaneously denouncing riders in the current peloton through simple guilt by association really brings down the legitimacy of The Clinic.

If we assume that most top riders now are doping (because insiders tell us that everyone is at it - Landis is just the only one who has gone public), then we have to do the same for the 80's. Numerous accounts tell us everyone was at it then too (Kimmage and Fignon being notables).

Lemond is doing amazing work at the moment against the current riders, but he for sure has skeletons in the closet in the form of what everyone was doing back then.

The key thing to remember is that pre-EPO, the preparations didn’t have anything like the effect blood-related doping has.

Plain old "blood doping" was available then.

 

[badboygolf16v]

I mean did you actually check out the Krebs cycle postings?...because in one absolutely breath-taking quote our boy Greg may have admitted something that doesn't really square with his squeaky clean public persona...

Cheers

blutto

Krebs cycle assigns 99% certainty (in his opinion) that LA doped, and a 1% certainty to GL having doped.

He also slates the use of his postings to support a scenario where GL dopes as spin.

Another poster notes that there is no way to know whether GL reached VO2Max in the treadmill test, so we cannot say with any certainty from the data to hand that there was a 15% increase in VO2Max.

Let me state this. I could care less whether GL doped. If he has, then he must face the consequences. Let MF and LA produce the evidence and then it can be investigated.

The irrational zealots who support LA seem to miss the point. There is evidence, not just hearsay, of LA doping. The focus on whether GL doped or not is immaterial to this fact.

LA doped. If Novitzky does his job, then this will be proved BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT.

Get to grips with it. Stop ****ing in the wind. Stop wasting your time with your crazy postings. In the scheme of things, no one reads The Clinic. And most of those who do, know that LA doped anyway. You will not convince them. The only person who needs convincing is Novitzky.

Write to him instead please, including your complaints about Lemond - with evidence.

Cheers

 

[Race Radio]

Plain old "blood doping" was available then.

Zero evidence of it's use by GT riders in the 80's

 

[powerste]

The defense of Lemond while simultaneously denouncing riders in the current peloton through simple guilt by association really brings down the legitimacy of The Clinic.

Dammit, now I need to dry off yet another keyboard, and my sinuses are killing me! I really need to stop mixing carbonated beverages with The Clinic.

 

[guilder]

Zero evidence of it's use by GT riders in the 80's

yet GT riders need blood doping more than anyone. go figure.

 

[Race Radio]

yet GT riders need blood doping more than anyone. go figure.

I know this has been explained to you many times. Not only is there Zero evidence but it was also logistically challenging, if not impossible.

 

[dbrower]

Zero evidence of it's use by GT riders in the 80's

Well and exhaustively documented use in the '84 Olympics, by the US team. Hard to believe that was unnoticed and ignored by those in Europe; there were plenty of Lasse Virren rumours as well.

Not to mention the lore about Keef Richards regularly going to Switzerland for complete fluid replacement.

-dB

 

[dbrower]

it was also logistically challenging, if not impossible.

What evidence do you have to support this? If I'm to believe current stories, then it's as easy as having a refrigerator and an ice-storage chest. Not much has changed in blood storage/transfusion technology in 40 years. I don't see the logistical problems being claimed.

-dB