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Armstrong Accuses LeMond of Doping!

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May 26, 2010
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Hawkwood said:
Maybe it was different on the teams Lemond ride for?

maybe because Lemond was adamant with teams that he did not want to dope they tried to tell him it was not doping and used jargon knowing he would not fully understand and then trying to get him into it that way. but he was having none of it. then it became a thing the team would not talk about openly around Lemond. Probably was great amusement among the european pros.

But you got to be the biggest idiot in the world to think that Lemond who rode in the peloton is accusing 7 times TdF winner of being a fraud and that he is lying when he says he(Lemond) did not dope, if he did there would be at least 10 people from various teams, the doctors, masseurs and others who would know and that information could make someone a nice pension by telling the cycling world about it. remember not too many in cycling have strict morals.

I reckon Lemond was clean. A lot of riders have spoken between the lines about their time in cycling and when you read those lines you can see they accepted it as part of the peloton. Anqeutil's famous quote will tell you that, "you do not win the Tour on water alone". Lemond has been adamant he didn't dope and has been adamant that the sport must clean up. This would upset a lot of people if he was a hypocrite and make them decide to put him in his place. It has not happened over the last 9 years that Lemond has been speaking out about it. It was taken to new levels by Trek and Armstrong's typical disgusting tactics of trying to silence him, which took it in the wrong direction as far as they were concerned and had the opposite affect.

Lemond is one of the few true champions in cycling.
 
Feb 28, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
maybe because Lemond was adamant with teams that he did not want to dope they tried to tell him it was not doping and used jargon knowing he would not fully understand and then trying to get him into it that way. but he was having none of it. then it became a thing the team would not talk about openly around Lemond. Probably was great amusement among the european pros.

But you got to be the biggest idiot in the world to think that Lemond who rode in the peloton is accusing 7 times TdF winner of being a fraud and that he is lying when he says he(Lemond) did not dope, if he did there would be at least 10 people from various teams, the doctors, masseurs and others who would know and that information could make someone a nice pension by telling the cycling world about it. remember not too many in cycling have strict morals.

I reckon Lemond was clean. A lot of riders have spoken between the lines about their time in cycling and when you read those lines you can see they accepted it as part of the peloton. Anqeutil's famous quote will tell you that, "you do not win the Tour on water alone". Lemond has been adamant he didn't dope and has been adamant that the sport must clean up. This would upset a lot of people if he was a hypocrite and make them decide to put him in his place. It has not happened over the last 9 years that Lemond has been speaking out about it. It was taken to new levels by Trek and Armstrong's typical disgusting tactics of trying to silence him, which took it in the wrong direction as far as they were concerned and had the opposite affect.

Lemond is one of the few true champions in cycling.

I don't disagree. One thing with Lemond was that he didn't suddenly become a climber he always had the talent.
 
Jul 20, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
the Uniballer

Only a eunuch would be jealous enough to call a poor dude who lost one of his testicles due to cancer the Uniballer.

Lemond hates Armstrong because he took away his title as best American cyclist.

Fignon admitted to doping.

It took 16 years for the Z man(2005 TDF Prologue) on a super fast TT bike with perhaps the best aero position of any current pro to beat Lemonds speed record. That is 16 years of Indurain, everyone else on EPO and your idol on the fastest bikes ever made with HR & Power meters.

Lemond threw a set of junk TT bars on his bike and did one of the fastest rides in history. It is plausible that Lemond did dope.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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WheelGrabber said:
Lemond hates Armstrong because he took away his title as best American cyclist.


I like to flip that statement to something like this................:eek:

Armstrong hates Lemond because he took away his title as best American cyclist.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Epicycle said:
Perhaps the most illuminating comments Greg has made about his own experience with doping were published in an interview with L'Express in 2007:

L'Express:You did not dope?

Lemond: No. And I did not always understand what they were saying to me. I am American, not French or Belgian. The subtleties of jargon long escaped me. When they asked me if I "nursed" enough, I retorted that I was not sick. When asked whether I was "prepared", I answered with my training notebook. It's probably in 1988, the year after my hunting accident, I had my closest brush with doping. I signed in the Dutch team PDM and they decided to try "things" among riders. Their doctor said that I should "rebalance" physiologically because the previous year I had lost much blood. Luckily, that season, I almost did not run [ I barely ran correction mine]. However, Gert-Jan Theunisse, a team leader, was excluded from the Tour after testing positive for testosterone.
That's very interesting.

I believe him. You just have to believe someone, sometimes.

Whoever said Lemond was given testosterone unwillingly is probably bang on though, only he was given it in 88, not 89. {the public knowledge that GL was carefully checking bottles before injections supports the fact he'd been burned before in all honesty}
Somebody told this to Armstrong who is making a big meal of it, of course. Lemond put 2 and 2 together at some stage, and knows exactly what LA is aiming at. with his accusations.


Is one a doper when one is given dope without his own prior knowledge? That's an ethical question for you.


Are most riders willing or do they even know what they are given? It's a say yes or lose the job policy, most of the time.

LA was fully aware and willing, that much is clear, and go down in flames he should.
Enough pros died of it over the years, and something really has to be done.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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Hawkwood said:
I think Lemond is okay although I tended to root for Fignon, however I'm surprised that he says he didn't know what they were talking about. I spoke to a British pro in the 1970s who rode for a famous continental team and got a few good results, he said the team was pretty blunt about doping, it was `here's the tablets get on with it'. Maybe it was different on the teams Lemond ride for?

I think you're missing the fact that LeMond was never ordinary. Unless you think he was doping at 15 years old and he always doped.

It wasn't like he ever had to work himself up thru the pro ranks. Cyrille Guimard and Hinault himself recruited LeMond. LeMond was always a prodigy and a huge star and more importantly was recognized as such. It wasn't as if the acclaim wasn't warranted and it wasn't like some ordinary rider ever took him down. His only setback was the shooting and recovery from that. Once he regained his form he knew there was no way that any lunch bucket pro should be dropping him.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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guilder said:
Lemond is crackers.

He could have used his personal equity intelligently and been a hero to all.


Who'd want to be a hero to the Pharmstrong chamois sniffers with all the evidence there is that LA is jacked to the eyeballs? The Armstrong believers are just as bad as the Jonestown kool aid drinkers except a lot of the Jonestown people were poor and desperate and wanted to try to escape. WTF is the excuse for the Pharmstrong apologists?
 

Dr. Maserati

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WheelGrabber said:
Only a eunuch would be jealous enough to call a poor dude who lost one of his testicles due to cancer the Uniballer.

Lemond hates Armstrong because he took away his title as best American cyclist.

Fignon admitted to doping.

It took 16 years for the Z man(2005 TDF Prologue) on a super fast TT bike with perhaps the best aero position of any current pro to beat Lemonds speed record. That is 16 years of Indurain, everyone else on EPO and your idol on the fastest bikes ever made with HR & Power meters.

Lemond threw a set of junk TT bars on his bike and did one of the fastest rides in history. It is plausible that Lemond did dope.

You should write to the comedian Robin Williams as he was the person who gave the 'Uniballer' name to Lance when he visited the team some years ago. Lance appeared to find it amusing.
You should also boycott the Juan Pelota cafe if you go to Austin,Tx.

The final TT in 1989 was just 25 kilometres (15.5 mi) - a downhill profile with a tailwind.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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nia O'Malley said:
That's very interesting.

I believe him. You just have to believe someone, sometimes.

</SNIP>

LA was fully aware and willing, that much is clear, and go down in flames he should.
Enough pros died of it over the years, and something really has to be done.

Very well spoken, Master Yoda :D
 
Jun 15, 2009
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WheelGrabber said:
Only a eunuch would be jealous enough to call a poor dude who lost one of his testicles due to cancer the Uniballer.

Lemond hates Armstrong because he took away his title as best American cyclist.

Fignon admitted to doping.

It took 16 years for the Z man(2005 TDF Prologue) on a super fast TT bike with perhaps the best aero position of any current pro to beat Lemonds speed record. That is 16 years of Indurain, everyone else on EPO and your idol on the fastest bikes ever made with HR & Power meters.

Lemond threw a set of junk TT bars on his bike and did one of the fastest rides in history. It is plausible that Lemond did dope.

Just about anything is plausible - the point of the thread is, we are now up to our eyeballs in evidence that Armstrong did so - intentionally over a long period of time - all the while lying his a$$ off about it. Now, in a pathetic effort to divert attention from his own case, LA is attempting to discredit LeMond by suggesting - in the absence of any evidence - that GL doped, too.

Plausible? Of course!
Supported by evidence? Umm, nope.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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editedbymod said:
The irony from Armstrong.

"No way did I pay someone $300,000 to say LeMond took EPO. By the way ask LeMond about 89 and if he took EPO"

You gotta admit. It's cheaper than paying $300k.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Cloxxki said:
Interesting.
He doesn't go into him refusing "help" from the doc, does he? and why did he luckily not race much that season? For chance of getting caught, as he was knowingly on the same as Theunisse, while not actually knowing "what"?

I can't help but believe the guy. Just not sure what to believe here. Does he think he was liekly doped one season where he barely raced being on recovery? Or does he mean "I never teted positive"?

I can believe he didn't understand the jargon earlier, English NOT being a peloton language. Was going to pose a question about, how current dopers call it among themselves. A harmless word spoken with emphasis?
No he doesn't go into refusing help from the doctor. I think he's saying he dodged a bullet, because he may have been persuaded by the doctor or more likely because the doctor may have given him something in the guise of sound medical advice. Often when a doctor tells you that you need to take something for a medical problem...you take it with little questions asked.

About the jargon...maybe Greg was like the guy in high school who doesn't realize his buddies are talking in code about getting high behind the gym. He has seemed like he was willing to believe Floyd and Lance until presented evidence to the contrary, Floyd's positive and Lance's relationship with Ferrari. But I know doping was more out in the open in the 1980s so being a pro would make it tough not to notice what was going on.
 
Epicycle said:
About the jargon...maybe Greg was like the guy in high school who doesn't realize his buddies are talking in code about getting high behind the gym. He has seemed like he was willing to believe Floyd and Lance until presented evidence to the contrary, Floyd's positive and Lance's relationship with Ferrari. But I know doping was more out in the open in the 1980s so being a pro would make it tough not to notice what was going on.

I think you also have to appreciate that there was a high level of apprehension back then regarding American cyclists in the European peloton. Yes, Greg had the palmares to suggest he belonged, but the atmosphere back then was brutal towards Americans.

Refusal to speak English (for the few who did), was the norm and one of the reasons Lemond had to learn French (although he has said he wanted to as well).

The Euros looked at Greg with a very skeptical eye, it's not a hard stretch at all to believe that they were being deliberately vague and even more "wink, wink" than normal with this brash kid from America. Americans trained differently, rode different kinds of races, and weren't products of the European "system" where everyone learns the rules very early on (not just doping, but the way things "are").

They had to see how he would integrate into the Euro peloton.

It's an analogy that gets old, but never seems too far off, that the peloton was like the Cosa Nostra. Just like in the movie "Goodfellas", Henry Hill wasn't Italian and he was only introduced slowly into the "family". While he "seemed" to be a player, and seemed willing to do whatever was asked of him, he never overcame that little seed of doubt and the unwillingness to completely trust him.
 
May 23, 2010
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MacRoadie said:
I think you also have to appreciate that there was a high level of apprehension back then regarding American cyclists in the European peloton. Yes, Greg had the palmares to suggest he belonged, but the atmosphere back then was brutal towards Americans.

Refusal to speak English (for the few who did), was the norm and one of the reasons Lemond had to learn French (although he has said he wanted to as well).

The Euros looked at Greg with a very skeptical eye, it's not a hard stretch at all to believe that they were being deliberately vague and even more "wink, wink" than normal with this brash kid from America. Americans trained differently, rode different kinds of races, and weren't products of the European "system" where everyone learns the rules very early on (not just doping, but the way things "are").

They had to see how he would integrate into the Euro peloton.

It's an analogy that gets old, but never seems too far off, that the peloton was like the Cosa Nostra. Just like in the movie "Goodfellas", Henry Hill wasn't Italian and he was only introduced slowly into the "family". While he "seemed" to be a player, and seemed willing to do whatever was asked of him, he never overcame that little seed of doubt and the unwillingness to completely trust him.

LeMond moved to Belgium..Learned French, rode on French teams, he was American but didn't try to p red white and blue all over everyone..Brash is an overstatement. LeMond won over Hinnault and Fignon without losing any fans. Lance OTOH represented the ugly American well..
 
However forthcoming Lemond may have been to his French buddies, I can totally see how htye'd not involve the talkative Yank into their little schemes. He was taking "their" prize money home, after all?

The way Floyd presented himself to Bruyneel as a willing doping experimenter, in an American team, may be a bit different than Lemond's quest for speed.
Here you have Greg, talented like he's got an insible twin brother exchanging leads with him, used to beat anyone anywhere. He's not going to get very far even if he dares ask euro riding buddies about the best ways to get "nursed".

I'm a bit of a PITA myself (it takes a wise man to know oneself), and I know I'm not going to get cooperation from a roadie team if I join their league, and am simply the loud guy that takes all the wins, cash, and fame.
I consider it at least plausible that a guy like Greg managed to stay out of doping until PDM, simply because of sufficient results causing him to not seek "solutions" to non-existing problems.
Not every guy on a bike is predetermined to cheat in all possible ways in order to reach the highest possible goal. If you're a bit naieve, enjoy hard training, being bor as supremely talented, you don't even consider doping much.

A doc apparently only took care of Greg when he was a mess in terms of conditioning, and that's when he was possibly open to leave some room for a grey area he didn't want to think about too much, just to get competitive again.
Greg may have been unknowingly doped to the gills on some races, and not won a dollar in prize money for it. It's not exactly role model material, but a far cry from setting up a program to have 8 helpers that are faster than most of your contenders, to drag you over the mountains.
 
Bizarre. Of course it's plausible that Lemond doped (I've heard rumours from people claiming to know people who know people, but nothing more and certainly nothing connected to EPO or blood doping) but HOW EXACTLY does this help Armstrong's argument or defense case or ANYTHING? The answer is that it doesn't. It's just part of Armstrong's strategy of saying anything to get him through the next week until he can go to ground. My bet is Sunday afternoon is the last time we hear from Lance Armstrong until the Grand Jury sits.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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It really just comes down to evidence. There is none. Yes it is perfectly plausible, given the nature of the sport, that LeMond used banned performance enhancers, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest he did besides his success.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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R.0.t.O said:
Bizarre. Of course it's plausible that Lemond doped (I've heard rumours from people claiming to know people who know people, but nothing more and certainly nothing connected to EPO or blood doping) but HOW EXACTLY does this help Armstrong's argument or defense case or ANYTHING? The answer is that it doesn't. It's just part of Armstrong's strategy of saying anything to get him through the next week until he can go to ground. My bet is Sunday afternoon is the last time we hear from Lance Armstrong until the Grand Jury sits.

Maybe Lance is just thinking of doing a Landis - "If i'm going down, you're going down with me".
 
Jun 15, 2009
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sars1981 said:
Maybe Lance is just thinking of doing a Landis - "If i'm going down, you're going down with me".

The key difference being that Floyd actually knows what he's talking about. No surprise to see that one lost on Lance.
 
redtreviso said:
LeMond moved to Belgium..Learned French, rode on French teams, he was American but didn't try to p red white and blue all over everyone..Brash is an overstatement. LeMond won over Hinnault and Fignon without losing any fans. Lance OTOH represented the ugly American well..

I used the term "brash" not to describe Lemond as he is/was, but to define the perception that many in the European peloton had of him, regardless of the reality.

The points regarding moving to Belgium and riding for French teams are 100% accurate. My point is that even with these efforts, Lemond was not immediately accepted as an equal.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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I didn't find back yet the exact article, but this preview is pretty close to it:
Drug Use Said to Concern LeMond Attorney Claims Dutch Team Wanted Cyclist to Try Testosterone
Stanko said LeMond worried that PDM officials would not take no for an answer, believing they might try to put an anabolic steroid into his drink. Steroids are synthetic derivatives of testosterone that can be injected or swallowed.

LeMond stated that he left PDM because he wanted them to kick out Theunisse and another rider who tested positive in 1988, and they wouldn't do it. And like this article, he was worried to get doped against his will...

He signed for a very modest Belgian team (ADR) at the end of 1988, which was probably the only team he could find to leave PDM. Not a move that could seem justified by anything other than running away quickly from a very suspicious team...

He also stated he signed for Renault at the beginning of his career, while offered more money by Peugeot, but they had doping affairs going on...

His signing for Z for 1990 goes a bit in the same direction... He was proposed more money else where, but Z looked very clean.

Staying away from suspect teams seems to always have been quite a priority for him.