Armstrong Accuses LeMond of Doping!

[blutto]

Zero evidence of it's use by GT riders in the 80's

..does the US Olympic Road Team blood doping fiasco in '84 ring a bell...and do you really think the eurodogs weren't aware of that episode...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

..does the US Olympic Road Team blood doping fiasco in '84 ring a bell...and do you really think the eurodogs weren't aware of that episode...

Cheers

blutto

You do realize what that I wrote GT for Grand Tour.

Let us know if you find any evidence. You may want to use the search function as this has been covered before.

 

[Race Radio]

What evidence do you have to support this? If I'm to believe current stories, then it's as easy as having a refrigerator and an ice-storage chest. Not much has changed in blood storage/transfusion technology in 40 years. I don't see the logistical problems being claimed.

-dB

It has changed a lot.

In the 80's the maximum storage time for blood was 42 days, and this came with significant damage to RBC. Long term (6 months) storage of blood is fairly recent with the advent of a verity of additives.

Most know of the 84 track riders using blood doping, but there is no evidence of GT riders using it in the 80's.

 

[dbrower]

You do realize what that I wrote GT for Grand Tour.

Let us know if you find any evidence. You may want to use the search function as this has been covered before.

Yes, blutto and I did; we just don't accept the implausibility that you are presenting. Nor is the absence of evidence reasonably interpreted as the evidence of the absence of blood doping in Europe in the 80's. You wouldn't expect to find proof if the practitioners were competent.

Note that I am not suggesting that LeMond blood doped -- I have no idea. But the assertion that it was not done is called into question by the '84 Olympics and Virren rumors, and the claim that it was logistically difficult is equally unsupported by evidence.

I think this is a stalemate of unprovable conjecture.

-dB

 

[dbrower]

It has changed a lot.

In the 80's the maximum storage time for blood was 42 days, and this came with significant damage to RBC. Long term (6 months) storage of blood is fairly recent with the advent of a verity of additives.

Most know of the 84 track riders using blood doping, but there is no evidence of GT riders using it in the 80's.

42 days is fully sufficient, and there's been no suggestion that any of the recent blood dopers have used complicated storage techniques, or additives.

-dB

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, blutto and I did; we just don't accept the implausibility that you are presenting. Nor is the absence of evidence reasonably interpreted as the evidence of the absence of blood doping in Europe in the 80's. You wouldn't expect to find proof if the practitioners were competent.

Note that I am not suggesting that LeMond blood doped -- I have no idea. But the assertion that it was not done is called into question by the '84 Olympics and Virren rumors, and the claim that it was logistically difficult is equally unsupported by evidence.

I think this is a stalemate of unprovable conjecture.

-dB

If it was used on the 80's who do you think would be the most obvious user in the GT's? For me no rider had a more dominate single season they Roche, winning the Giro, Tour, and worlds. Don't you think his roommate Paul Kimmagge would have said something? Much has been written about doping in the 80's, not a single word about blood doping by GT. In his recent book Fignon's wrote about his doping, not a word about blood doping. There is zero rumor or evidence of GT riders blood doping.

With only a 42 day window and degradation of RBCs logistics were certainly an issue.

If you can find any evidence of blood doping by GT riders in the 80's then please share them with us.

 

[blutto]

Krebs cycle assigns 99% certainty (in his opinion) that LA doped, and a 1% certainty to GL having doped.

He also slates the use of his postings to support a scenario where GL dopes as spin.

Another poster notes that there is no way to know whether GL reached VO2Max in the treadmill test, so we cannot say with any certainty from the data to hand that there was a 15% increase in VO2Max.

Let me state this. I could care less whether GL doped. If he has, then he must face the consequences. Let MF and LA produce the evidence and then it can be investigated.

The irrational zealots who support LA seem to miss the point. There is evidence, not just hearsay, of LA doping. The focus on whether GL doped or not is immaterial to this fact.

LA doped. If Novitzky does his job, then this will be proved BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT.

Get to grips with it. Stop ****ing in the wind. Stop wasting your time with your crazy postings. In the scheme of things, no one reads The Clinic. And most of those who do, know that LA doped anyway. You will not convince them. The only person who needs convincing is Novitzky.

Write to him instead please, including your complaints about Lemond - with evidence.

Cheers

-------------------------------------------------------------...correct me if I'm wrong but this is same Krebs cycle who said...

I've read that Lemond did a lot of x-country skiing in the off season, and here you say he was a great runner. In that case then, 79 on a treadmill up to 92 on a bike is all but physiologically impossible..( and may I add...unless you believe in miracles...)

Cheers

blutto

 

[dbrower]

If it was used on the 80's who do you think would be the most obvious user in the GT's? For me no rider had a more dominate single season they Roche, winning the Giro, Tour, and worlds. Don't you think his roommate Paul Kimmagge would have said something? Much has been written about doping in the 80's, not a single word about blood doping by GT. In his recent book Fignon's wrote about his doping, not a word about blood doping. There is zero rumor or evidence of GT riders blood doping.

With only a 42 day window and degradation of RBCs logistics were certainly an issue.

If you can find any evidence of blood doping by GT riders in the 80's then please share them with us.

I can do that about as well as you can come up with evidence that current/recent blood dopers have been using more sophisticated methods than available in the 80s.

Like I said earlier: Stalemate.

-dB

 

[Race Radio]

42 days is fully sufficient, and there's been no suggestion that any of the recent blood dopers have used complicated storage techniques, or additives.

-dB

Actually there is plenty. One of the primary reasons for the Biopassport to test in the off season is this is the time that a rider would withdraw blood for upcoming season. Most GC contenders would not be comfortable withdrawing blood 2 weeks prior to a GT for use in the 3rd week.

If you find any evidence of GT riders in the 80's using blood doping please let us know

 

[Race Radio]

I can do that about as well as you can come up with evidence that current/recent blood dopers have been using more sophisticated methods than available in the 80s.

Like I said earlier: Stalemate.

-dB

Read the OP files. Fuentes kept detailed calenders of withdraws. Why would a doping doctor not use the most up to date methods?

 

[nia O'Malley]

Actually there is plenty. One of the primary reasons for the Biopassport to test in the off season is this is the time that a rider would withdraw blood for upcoming season. Most GC contenders would not be comfortable withdrawing blood 2 weeks prior to a GT for use in the 3rd week.

If you find any evidence of GT riders in the 80's using blood doping please let us know

Nice uppercut. Now let's count to ten and see if the opponent can get back up after that one, because you would think anyone vaguely acquainted with biology could figure out it's the killer argument that ends that one once and for all.

 

[dbrower]

Read the OP files. Fuentes kept detailed calenders of withdraws. Why would a doping doctor not use the most up to date methods?

Last time I looked, calendars were available in the 80's. If we believe Landis' account of babysitting a refrigerator, it doesn't seem like anything extraordinary was being done.

If you want to post parts of OP that specifically detail things done by Fuentes not possible in the 80s, or some other source, you may score your point. Otherwise we're not going to get anywhere, really. We're hung on the usual dope dilemma: one wants to say something didn't happen, and challenges for evidence it did; another says something might have happened, give evidence it didn't. It's usually harder to come up with evidence something didn't happen, which leaves me with the easier chore, because I don't have to offer anything past the record of the '84 Olympics and Virren indicating the reasonable possibility. You have the harder chore of demonstrating those examples can't apply.

-dB

 

[Race Radio]

Last time I looked, calendars were available in the 80's. If we believe Landis' account of babysitting a refrigerator, it doesn't seem like anything extraordinary was being done.

If you want to post parts of OP that specifically detail things done by Fuentes not possible in the 80s, or some other source, you may score your point. Otherwise we're not going to get anywhere, really. We're hung on the usual dope dilemma: one wants to say something didn't happen, and challenges for evidence it did; another says something might have happened, give evidence it didn't. It's usually harder to come up with evidence something didn't happen, which leaves me with the easier chore, because I don't have to offer anything past the record of the '84 Olympics and Virren indicating the reasonable possibility. You have the harder chore of demonstrating those examples can't apply.

-dB

Baby sitting a refrigerator has nothing to do with the discussion, but I would expect nothing less from the master of obfuscation.

Tyler Hamiltons' doping schedule was well documented. It talks about extractions in February for use in Late April and 3 bags that were extracted May1st. 2 were used in the Dauphiné Libéré an the other was used, with previously stored bags, for the Tour. Well outside the 42 day window.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...er/Hamilton/elppordep/20060626elpepidep_6/Tes

There is a list of substances found in Fuentes lab that included blood preservatives, you are welcome to do a Google search but as you are unable to find any evidence to back up your claim of GT riders using blood doping in the 80's I am not going to waste my time looking for it.

 

[Digger]

Just finished reading Fignon's book. And almost word for word, his experiences with EPO, blood doping are the exact same as Lemond's. I.e. that the changes came about in 1991, 1992 and 1993. And ust like Lemond, Fignon was in denial about the speeds he was witnessing - the fact that donkeys were now passing him out as if he was stopped dead. Groups of 40 and 50 riders leaving him behind on a mountain pass. Two rivals corroborating each other's story. So we have Kimmage, Voet, Lemond, Fignon and others all saying hte same thing about when EPO and blood doping came into play. Yet some on here still believe these people are either wrong or telling lies.

 

[SilentAssassin]

Just finished reading Fignon's book. And almost word for word, his experiences with EPO, blood doping are the exact same as Lemond's. I.e. that the changes came about in 1991, 1992 and 1993. And ust like Lemond, Fignon was in denial about the speeds he was witnessing - the fact that donkeys were now passing him out as if he was stopped dead. Groups of 40 and 50 riders leaving him behind on a mountain pass. Two rivals corroborating each other's story. So we have Kimmage, Voet, Lemond, Fignon and others all saying hte same thing about when EPO and blood doping came into play. Yet some on here still believe these people are either wrong or telling lies.

EPO has been around since the late 60s and early 70s. Merckx tested positive for doping in 1969. Lemond most likely cheated.

 

[nia O'Malley]

Hell, Hitler had his army on EPO already! How do you think he invaded most of Europe? Developed in 1933, take that Merckx!!!!




This place has some of the most inventive trolls I've seen in a long time (that get away with it, that is)

 

[Digger]

EPO has been around since the late 60s and early 70s. Merckx tested positive for doping in 1969. Lemond most likely cheated.

Mods - come on seriously.

 

[MacRoadie]

Just finished reading Fignon's book. And almost word for word, his experiences with EPO, blood doping are the exact same as Lemond's. I.e. that the changes came about in 1991, 1992 and 1993. And ust like Lemond, Fignon was in denial about the speeds he was witnessing - the fact that donkeys were now passing him out as if he was stopped dead. Groups of 40 and 50 riders leaving him behind on a mountain pass. Two rivals corroborating each other's story. So we have Kimmage, Voet, Lemond, Fignon and others all saying hte same thing about when EPO and blood doping came into play. Yet some on here still believe these people are either wrong or telling lies.

Yeah? Well, Fignon is just another cheese-eating, no-antiperspirant-wearing cancer lover.

Oh, wait a minute. Never mind...

 

[blutto]

Krebs cycle assigns 99% certainty (in his opinion) that LA doped, and a 1% certainty to GL having doped.

He also slates the use of his postings to support a scenario where GL dopes as spin.

Another poster notes that there is no way to know whether GL reached VO2Max in the treadmill test, so we cannot say with any certainty from the data to hand that there was a 15% increase in VO2Max.

Let me state this. I could care less whether GL doped. If he has, then he must face the consequences. Let MF and LA produce the evidence and then it can be investigated.

The irrational zealots who support LA seem to miss the point. There is evidence, not just hearsay, of LA doping. The focus on whether GL doped or not is immaterial to this fact.

LA doped. If Novitzky does his job, then this will be proved BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT.

Get to grips with it. Stop ****ing in the wind. Stop wasting your time with your crazy postings. In the scheme of things, no one reads The Clinic. And most of those who do, know that LA doped anyway. You will not convince them. The only person who needs convincing is Novitzky.

Write to him instead please, including your complaints about Lemond - with evidence.

Cheers

--------------------------------------------------------------

....the full quote that you cherry picked from is as following...

"The circumstantial evidence implicating LA goes far beyond anything that implicates Lemond, so whilst I'm 99% convinced that LA is/was a doper, I'm about 1% convinced that Lemond was. That still doesn't mean that it magically makes it possible for an endurance trained athlete to have a 16% change in VO2max."

...what may be missing here is that Krebs cycle, being an academic, is loath to go beyond the data directly at hand...though the use of the word magically is interesting...and the athlete he is talking about is LeMond using test scores LeMond himself brings to the table...

...and as for that other poster Krebs cycle kicks his *** up and down the thread....its actually quite funny....you should actually read it right thru to the end...

Cheers

blutto

 

[buckwheat]

--------------------------------------------------------------

....the full quote that you cherry picked from is as following...

"The circumstantial evidence implicating LA goes far beyond anything that implicates Lemond, so whilst I'm 99% convinced that LA is/was a doper, I'm about 1% convinced that Lemond was. That still doesn't mean that it magically makes it possible for an endurance trained athlete to have a 16% change in VO2max."

...what may be missing here is that Krebs cycle, being an academic, is loath to go beyond the data directly at hand...though the use of the word magically is interesting...and the athlete he is talking about is LeMond using test scores LeMond himself brings to the table...

...and as for that other poster Krebs cycle kicks his *** up and down the thread....its actually quite funny....you should actually read it right thru to the end...

Cheers

blutto

How thick are you? Maybe LeMond didn't reach VO2 max on the treadmill test? Coggan said much the same thing about his differing VO2 max scores.

 

[dbrower]

Baby sitting a refrigerator has nothing to do with the discussion, but I would expect nothing less from the master of obfuscation.

Tyler Hamiltons' doping schedule was well documented. It talks about extractions in February for use in Late April and 3 bags that were extracted May1st. 2 were used in the Dauphiné Libéré an the other was used, with previously stored bags, for the Tour. Well outside the 42 day window.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...er/Hamilton/elppordep/20060626elpepidep_6/Tes

There is a list of substances found in Fuentes lab that included blood preservatives, you are welcome to do a Google search but as you are unable to find any evidence to back up your claim of GT riders using blood doping in the 80's I am not going to waste my time looking for it.

Again, I don't need to provide positive evidence, as I'm only saying there was precedent ('84 olympics), so it was possible. You need to convince that it wasn't possible.

Invocation of Hamilton's supposed schedule is irrelevant, as is the 42 day expiration you cite. First, there's nothing to say homologous doping could not have been done with new blood; and second, who is to say a withdrawal two weeks pre-GT would not be useful?

I observe from http://www.bloodbook.com/trans-history.html and http://www.bloodbook.com/banking.html that the additives to get to 42 days were introduced in the 80s, and those timelines don't address later advances. Similarly, at http://laboratorian.advanceweb.com/...n-Immediate-Spin-on-Transfusion-Services.aspx

t was not until 1957 that Gibson introduced a new anticoagulant, citrate phosphate dextrose (CPD). He concluded that by being less acidic than ACD, it reduced the storage lesion of the red cells and prolonged the expiration date to 28 days.7,8 While this was accepted, a more conservative 21-day expiration date was assigned. Further studies demonstrated that the addition of adenine to the CPD could extend the shelf life of a unit of blood even longer by preventing the fall of ATP levels. The expiration of a unit collected in CPDA-1 is 35 days. Both of these anticoagulants, CPD and CPDA-1, are the standard of today's blood collections throughout the world.

By the 1980s, the introduction of additives extended the length of storage even longer. Currently, three additive solutions are being used: AS-1 (Adsol), AS-3 (Nutricel) and AS-5 (Optisol). The expiration date of the all-additive systems is 42 days. All three contain sodium, dextrose, adenine and mannitol suspended in saline in different concentrations, which add to the survival of the red cells and, at the same time, allow for more plasma to be harvested from a unit of whole blood.

Adsol was ref'd in literature by 1984 and Nutricel by 1987, so not much new there.

If one thinks that official expiry is conservative, then longer storage is plausible.

-dB

 

[blutto]

How thick are you? Maybe LeMond didn't reach VO2 max on the treadmill test? Coggan said much the same thing about his differing VO2 max scores.

...oh gee its "the other poster"...how is your **** anyway..i figured after the pounding you took on that other thread you wouldn't come out of hiding for months...

..go tend to your wounds it sounds like you are still punch drunk...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Race Radio]

Again, I don't need to provide positive evidence, as I'm only saying there was precedent ('84 olympics), so it was possible. You need to convince that it wasn't possible.

Nope, I need to be convinced it happened. There is zero evidence, or even rumor, that GT riders in the 80's were using blood doping. So far you have show us nothing to change that fact.

 

[Ferminal]

Again, I don't need to provide positive evidence, as I'm only saying there was precedent ('84 olympics), so it was possible. You need to convince that it wasn't possible.

-dB

Of course it was possible, it's also possible that LeMond was a doper, but dealing with "possibilities" is just silly. Did either of them actually happen?

 

[flicker]

Nope, I need to be convinced it happened. There is zero evidence, or even rumor, that GT riders in the 80's were using blood doping. So far you have show us nothing to change that fact.

My guess is the Eastern Block were using Blood Doping in the 70s. They were the cutting edge in all doping.