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Armstrong at Snowmass

Jun 18, 2009
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TheArbiter

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krebs303 said:
OK what's up with this?

"After crossing the finish, Armstrong continued up Fanny Hill with spectators following close behind, then rode out of sight.

He returned about 45 minutes later to participate in the awards ceremony."

The mind boggles.

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20090808/NEWS/908089995/1077&ParentProfile=1058

What conspiracy theory are you trying to start now? Obviously he didn't want to get mobbed whilst he was still recovering. Riders do this all the time.

Anyways, what a fantastic performance against a field of off road pros. It just shows you what an amazing athlete he is. Could Contador so easily switch like this?

In your face, Armstrong haters!
 
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far to obvious to be a doping control avoidance, there would be too much impossible press and a likely ban..

more likely a warm down prior to all the awards etc (hasnt got his usual masseur etc on hand), or perhaps even getting out of the way to let the other riders get some press and attention instead of hogging it all :eek:

interesting that this post is in the clinic..?
 
TheArbiter said:
What conspiracy theory are you trying to start now? Obviously he didn't want to get mobbed whilst he was still recovering. Riders do this all the time.

Anyways, what a fantastic performance against a field of off road pros. It just shows you what an amazing athlete he is. Could Contador so easily switch like this?

In your face, Armstrong haters!
pretty low key race really. really guys, come on.:cool:
 
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TheArbiter said:
What conspiracy theory are you trying to start now? Obviously he didn't want to get mobbed whilst he was still recovering. Riders do this all the time.

Anyways, what a fantastic performance against a field of off road pros. It just shows you what an amazing athlete he is. Could Contador so easily switch like this?

In your face, Armstrong haters!

He won a 3rd or 4th U.S. tier mountain bike race by beating up on the locals. Impressive, very impressive...
 

TheArbiter

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You know very well that few road riders could just jump on a mountain bike after a year and beat a bunch of pros, at 38. It demonstrates Armstrong's athletic ability and why he was, and still is in many ways, the best overall endurance athlete in the world. The haters just can't hide this.

I bet you he wins Leadville and all the other off road races he enters. He's only gonna get better in the Tour next year too. It's going to be a year of hell for you guys.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
It just shows you what an amazing athlete he is. Could Contador so easily switch like this?

Funny how you are so quick to criticize Contador, while you are so staunch in your defense of Armstrong.
 
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TheArbiter said:
You know very well that few road riders could just jump on a mountain bike after a year and beat a bunch of pros, at 38. It demonstrates Armstrong's athletic ability and why he was, and still is in many ways, the best overall endurance athlete in the world. The haters just can't hide this.

TheArbiter said:
Anyways, what a fantastic performance against a field of off road pros. It just shows you what an amazing athlete he is. Could Contador so easily switch like this?

I think you would be pretty amazed at the bike handling skills of most professional cyclists. Most would hold their own on the road or trails ('cross or MTB), yes even Contador. Heck, look at another American cycling legend, Ned Overend. MTBing hall of famer and he wins the Colorado Road Championships at the age of 49, I think came third in the US Road Championships at a similar age, and 2nd in both the Mt. Evans and Mt. Washington Hill Climbs at 51 years of age. Many professional road riders hit the boards in the off season. So many top riders, regardless of their main discipline, are pretty good at anything to do with bikes, whether it be road, 'cross, MTBing or track.
 

TheArbiter

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elapid said:
Funny how you are so quick to criticize Contador, while you are so staunch in your defense of Armstrong.

Because people are so quick to use Contador to bash Armstrong. Obviously.

It's a genuine point though. Contador is probably a more natural road racer than Armstrong ever was - indeed there are a lot of road riders that are naturally more suited to the road than Armstrong. For me that's why Armstrong is so great - he had to learn how to be the best, working on his cadence and style. He doesn't even look like a road rider. He's just a great endurance athlete.
 

TheArbiter

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I think you would be pretty amazed at the bike handling skills of most professional cyclists. Most would hold their own on the road or trails ('cross or MTB), yes even Contador.

But they don't switch between sports mid season. They may come from this background or other, but they stay in that displine once they get there. Armstrong tries his hand at everything.
 
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TheArbiter said:
But they don't switch between sports mid season. They may come from this background or other, but they stay in that displine once they are ther. Armstrong tries his hand at everything.

I disagree. Firstly, Armstrong is not switching sports, he is just cross-training and having fun. Secondly, others used to switch during or between seasons rather than stay in their discipline for the remainder of their career. Zabel used to and many professional road riders currently ride track, especially the six day races, in the off-season. Most other professional roadies will at least train if not race in other disciplines during the season and off-season as part of cross-training. Many are also highly competitive runners and downhill and cross-country skiers. Armstrong is no different, except the media just cover his every move to an unprecedented level and hence we know everything he does on an almost daily basis. The same cannot be said for any other cyclist and hence what other cyclists do in between races or in between seasons remains largely unreported and therefore unknown to us.
 
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I think you have to give it to Armstrong....he is willing to go out and put it out there in disciplines that are not his specialty. Even with the possibility of looking bad. He has done it in running marathons, mountain biking, and cyclocross. The guy just likes to compete.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
Because people are so quick to use Contador to bash Armstrong. Obviously.

It's a genuine point though. Contador is probably a more natural road racer than Armstrong ever was - indeed there are a lot of road riders that are naturally more suited to the road than Armstrong. For me that's why Armstrong is so great - he had to learn how to be the best, working on his cadence and style. He doesn't even look like a road rider. He's just a great endurance athlete.

Maybe I'm stupid, but it is not that obvious to me. There were conflicts, both on and off the road, between Contador and Armstrong, but I don't see how Contador is used to bash Armstrong.

I also disagree with your assessment of Armstrong. He was always suited to road racing. YouTube videos of a young Armstrong demonstrate his skills and natural aptitude to road riding (not just TTing). By definition, learning implies a transition by which an athlete improves over time. Armstrong never went through this learning or transition stage - he was a decent one-day rider and came back after cancer as a grand tour winner. He may ride at a higher cadence now than pre-cancer, but this doesn't make a one-day racer into a grand tour winner. Armstrong is a very good cyclist, but what about cyclists like Ned Overend? How do they rate? A superb endurance athlete who is still going strong into his 50s and beating guys in their 20s in MTB and hill climbing. But these guys probably don't rate too highly because they don't receive the media coverage and are just plain good without all the controversy and arrogant attitude.
 

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elapid said:
Maybe I'm stupid, but it is not that obvious to me. There were conflicts, both on and off the road, between Contador and Armstrong, but I don't see how Contador is used to bash Armstrong.

I also disagree with your assessment of Armstrong. He was always suited to road racing. YouTube videos of a young Armstrong demonstrate his skills and natural aptitude to road riding (not just TTing). By definition, learning implies a transition by which an athlete improves over time. Armstrong never went through this learning or transition stage - he was a decent one-day rider and came back after cancer as a grand tour winner. He may ride at a higher cadence now than pre-cancer, but this doesn't make a one-day racer into a grand tour winner. Armstrong is a very good cyclist, but what about cyclists like Ned Overend? How do they rate? A superb endurance athlete who is still going strong into his 50s and beating guys in their 20s in MTB and hill climbing. But these guys probably don't rate too highly because they don't receive the media coverage and are just plain good without all the controversy and arrogant attitude.

Contador has been used to bash Armstrong. That's hardly a secret. The same guys who were delighting in his win would be trying to stitch him up for doping if Armstrong wasn't there. I have respect for Contador but this is just how it goes.

You make some good points, but it's pretty unheard of for GC ToF contender to jump into a mountain bike comp a few weeks later and win. Armstrong deserves praise for this.
 
May 12, 2009
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Overend has always split pretty evenly between road and mtn, and been very good at both.
The latest issue of Bicycling(which I got thru a free subscription) has an interesting comparison between Ned and his son. Ned has a 71.1 V02 max, down only a tiny amount from the 72 he measured in 1987. Amazing.
And 6.0 watts/kg.

As for Armstrong he's a fairly good bike handler, at least in the middle of roadies. And he's usually done fairly well in the mtn races he's entered, though it's hard to tell how much that is due to fitness vs. semi-capable skills.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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krebs303 said:
OK what's up with this?

"After crossing the finish, Armstrong continued up Fanny Hill with spectators following close behind, then rode out of sight.

He returned about 45 minutes later to participate in the awards ceremony."

The mind boggles.

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20090808/NEWS/908089995/1077&ParentProfile=1058
You Lance could have very well wanted to train off 400 ml into a blood bag and pop it in a fridge in case of a crit control later in the day...Its not out of the question.

Do I think thats what happend? Maybe...He certainly would not have dominated those guys and maintained his reputation without racing above 50.
 
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Was there even a doping control there? If yes, I'd assume the winner would be promptly escorted there. If not, maybe a nice long cool down is in order. Is it possible for a relatively insignificant (a field of 28) race to be without doping controls. Sounds like it to me. If there were controls then, yes, protocol was broken and special treatment was granted. Does anyone know about the presence of doping control?
 
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I don't believe the winner needed any performance enhancements to beat a field of Colorado's best. The stretch to doping allegations is absurd. The crime would be the special treatment that was granted. As I see it anyway. Feel free to disagree.
 
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Max Cadence said:
Was there even a doping control there? If yes, I'd assume the winner would be promptly escorted there. If not, maybe a nice long cool down is in order. Is it possible for a relatively insignificant (a field of 28) race to be without doping controls. Sounds like it to me. If there were controls then, yes, protocol was broken and special treatment was granted. Does anyone know about the presence of doping control?
Wasnt it a State Championships race? There;s never been any doping controls for those. There could/should have been though since it was a pretty big race. For lance he would have been worried about getting an out of competition control later at home perhaps, or maybe at the race.

45 mins is more than enough time to pump in half a liter of hespan (hetastarch) and take out 2 units of whole blood, pop it in the fridge at 4 degrees and save it for an "epic" training ride or another local Mtn bike race.
 
elapid said:
I think you would be pretty amazed at the bike handling skills of most professional cyclists. Most would hold their own on the road or trails ('cross or MTB), yes even Contador. Heck, look at another American cycling legend, Ned Overend. MTBing hall of famer and he wins the Colorado Road Championships at the age of 49, I think came third in the US Road Championships at a similar age, and 2nd in both the Mt. Evans and Mt. Washington Hill Climbs at 51 years of age. Many professional road riders hit the boards in the off season. So many top riders, regardless of their main discipline, are pretty good at anything to do with bikes, whether it be road, 'cross, MTBing or track.

Thanks for bringing in some breadth of knowledge to the topic. I find it amazing how narrow a view of the sport those who only follow Armstrong can, on occasion, demonstrate. Not saying it's all Armstrong fans, but unfortunately it's a lot.

The good thing is that there's just a huge body of cycling history to learn about, and forums are a great way to get a lot of it.
 
TheArbiter said:
But they don't switch between sports mid season. They may come from this background or other, but they stay in that displine once they get there. Armstrong tries his hand at everything.

This is categorically not true. European professionals have been doing cyclocross and track work for large chunks of the training year for almost as long as road cycling's been in existence, and I'd be shocked if many haven't turned to mountain biking in the last few decades.

I will grant you that this fact doesn't make it to the local news in my part of the US.

As far as "mid-season", well...this isn't mid-season. Armstrong's season is over. I think it's cool he does these races, it's clear he just likes to race.
 
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red_flanders said:
This is categorically not true. European professionals have been doing cyclocross and track work for large chunks of the training year for almost as long as road cycling's been in existence, and I'd be shocked if many haven't turned to mountain biking in the last few decades.

I will grant you that this fact doesn't make it to the local news in my part of the US.

As far as "mid-season", well...this isn't mid-season. Armstrong's season is over. I think it's cool he does these races, it's clear he just likes to race.
"Lance" cares very much about his reputation and this means doing some races outside the "Tour". However, I think he also enjoys racing. He dumped his TV appearances so he could do these races. Maybe Letterman did not want Lance to come on his show though. I remember a while back, Letterman made a snarky comment towards the end of his interview with him.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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this race was not a World Cup mtb event.

It was equivalent to the post-Tour crit circuit in the lowlands, and across Europe, where the riders make alot of cash in appearance fees.

Nothing more, nothing less. Like to see Evans whip his **** on a mtb. And on a roadie, if they were both clean.
 

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