Armstrong Lies

[Mellow Velo]

That's not funny, even from you.

Neither is this. 3 Grand Tour champions in one team and that team's not the Shed!

 

[Murray]

Neither is this. 3 Grand Tour champions in one team and that team's not the Shed!

Well, two champions anyway. OP lost to a guy who got busted.... that doesn't make him a champion.

 

[pmcg76]

Hey you,

Get out of the shadows. The guy is cycling. He overshadows Contador and Andy Shleck and I will tell you Contador is 3X more talented and A. Schleck is 2X better than Armstrong.

You know how Armstrong got 3rd. I shan't debate that topic.

I like the shack causa Horner and Loqviist and Kloedon and riviera and popovich and Booche etc. Lance is old hat but he brings in some awesome talent. Fan-boy crap well you I have been over that for a long time. I like seeing guys like Horner win races or even come in the top 10.

Lance is a bandleader like Miles Davis. You could say he likes substances like Miles also. So what.

I just want to see the races and if Lance gets on TV so what. I ain't sleeping with him.

PS like the jerseys old school like Molteni.

You expect people to base their opinion purely on Lances athletic achievements, well heres the catch. I can only compare Lance to one other major Tour champion I have followed, Miguel Indurain. Their cycling achievements are more or less equal. But compare their repsective media profiles and the amount of coverage they received, there is no comparison.

Indurain was considered a gentleman who treated all around him with respect and rarely did I hear anything bad about him other than he was boring. During his Tour run, he was barely featured in English langauage magazines, the odd interview here and there. I dont recall many conflicts with fellow riders or any major controversy.

Lance is the opposite, a reflection of the modern obsession with celebrity who is more than happy to play the media ***** and continually potray himself as an icon to help sell whatever and make more money, who else would seriously produce a book or two about a single year of a comeback. LeMonds comeback in 89 was equally if not more compelling but I dont recall him producing any gloosy books, at least not in Europe anyway.

You can claim that this is the medias fault but lets be honest, Lance courts the media as much as they court him.

Lance actually starts feuds like the Simeoni/LeMond feuds. Look back at my previous post on the Simeoni affair, not a single reply, is that down to the fact that it lays the happenings in a clear manner and dispels all the BS spewed by the Lance PR machine, it clearly shows that Lance started the whole thing.

Then you have somebody like Polish who still calls Simeoni a whiner, if people had read my post, how could they still say Simeoni was a whiner. Lance was the whiner for involving himself in a case that didnt involve him.

Tiger Woods was an icon for many people and he has now been exposed as a less than savoury person whilst promoting a myth of a good guy, family man. You claim this is irrelevant but fact is Tiger is just as famous for his personal story as for his golfing achievements.

Lance is exactly the same, promoting this myth of being a great guy whilst acting like a **** most of the time. I guess some people just like to see the myth dispelled.

Fact is if Lance was an Indurain like character, nobody would have a problem with him but he courts attention, conflict and money so there is every reason to bash the guy. Lance the great sportstar goes hand in hand with Lance the major ****, the two are inseperable. We dont have to like our champions, especially when they behave like Lance does and we have to hear about him all the time.

 

[ak-zaaf]

Well, two champions anyway. OP lost to a guy who got busted.... that doesn't make him a champion.

He won the tour and is a TDF champion.

 

[Murray]

He won the tour and is a TDF champion.

I have nothing against OP specifically. I just don't agree with the practice of elevating lower finishers when those above are DQ'd.

Erase the cheaters names from the record books, but OP still finished second, he did not win.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Armstrong says he'll stop putting his results online, because 'it only leads to speculation in the press and more testing on me'

Too funny for words. The guy clearly knows how to cheat a crowd

 

[rhubroma]

I am currently trying to stay out of all the Lance threads but the BS I have read on the previous pages in regards to the Simeoni affair is unblievable. I cannot let this one pass.

It is very obvious that those criticising Simeoni know nothing about the guy or what is considered acceptable behvaiour in pro cycling.
A full recap then.

1. Simeoni along with guys liked Chiappucci & Bortolami were involved in the trial aginst Ferrari because their names were found in his files. This case started in 1999 before Lance had won a single Tour so had nothing to do with Lance. There was no conflict.

2. The athletes involved were asked what a red asterik in their training diary referred to. Simeoni admitted that Ferrari had advised him on what drugs to take when there was a red asterik and where to get them. Chiappucci who was retired by then admitted the same in his initial testimony but then changed his story saying it was amino acids or he couldnt remember. Bortolami gave the same testimony, the same Bortolami who was later busted when EPO was found in his refrigerator. Does anyone think Chiappucci wasnt on EPO in the 90s. Simeoni was the only one to tell the truth if thats what you believe.

3. For being honest and admitting to taking drugs, Simeoni was banned for a period but came back to win a stage at the Vuelta 01, famously walking over the line with his bike held in the air as a symbolic gesture for those who lost their lives in the 9/11 tragedy. His photo appeared in newspapers all over the world but he was fined by stupid race organisers for his actions.

4. Armstrong only came into the picture when his relationship with Ferrari was outed by David Walsh. It was a secret before that, the Ferrari trial was ongoing for 2-3 years at this stage and Simeoni was the only athlete who had a consisent story i.e. Ferrari advised him to take EPO.

5. When Lance was asked about the ongoing trial against Ferrari in 04, he called Simeoni a liar in a newspaper. Why? If his relationship with Ferrari had never been outed, he would have never have said a word against Simeoni. He had never criticised Simeoni in the time before the link with Ferrari was common knowledge, that was a 2-3 year period. As usual Lance was trying to discredit any possible bad association even though the trial had nothing to do with him.

6. Simeoni was shocked to hear the biggest star in cycling calling him a liar in a major newspaper as the trial had nothing to do with Lance and he was just telling the truth. He felt that Lances accusations could destroy his career and as the accusations of being a liar were unfounded, he threatened to sue Armstrong and if he won, give the money to charity.

7. In the 20 years of following pro-cycling and the Tour, the last few flat stages post mountains are considered carte blanche for the lower ranked riders on GC to have a shot at a stage wins. Very often we see stage winning margins of 10/20mins, only the sprinters teams make any effort to chase breakaways if they dont have a rider in the break or there is a tight battle for the Mailllot Vert. It has always been that way and is considered part of cycling etiquette for this to happen.

8. In 2004, Simeoni was one of the lower ranked GC riders who got away on such a stage. Lance ordered USPS to chase, there was absolutely no reason for them to chase, the GC was sown up already. They were not able to bridge so Lance took it upon himself to bridge the gap. He had no intention of winning the stage, his only aim was to prevent one rider having a shot of winning and to humiliate him. That day he broke the rules of cycling etiquette because of a vendetta against a single rider who had dared to speak the truth.

8. It was Armstrong who made it about himself, not the other way round as Simeoni was never ever testifying against Lance or even questioning him, it only became relevant to Lance when his relationship with Ferrari was outed and that was not Simoenis problem. Lance then called an athlete he barely knew a liar in a major European newspapaer turning it into a conflict. Nobody does conflict like Lance as proven again by the whole Contador sage this year except Contador is a big rider unlike little guy Simeoni.

If people cannot follow this case and not see that Lance behaved like a complete ****, then too bad for you. I would still have been a Lance supporter when this incident occured in 2004 and it turned me completely against him as I had never seen anything like it in my time following cycling. I had known about many disagreemts/arguments in the peloton but this was so vindictive and unseemly.

For the biggest name ever in pro-cycling to behave in such a way does not constitute sporting behaviour in my book and the primary reason I dont like Lance. When you are growing up playing sport, cheating is considered wrong as is being disrespectful to your team-mates, opponents etc, yet Lance seems to hold these values in contempt.

A compeling because rational assesment of the whole seedy affair. I like what you pointed out about the two different natures of the conflicts between Lance and Simeoni and Lance and Contador. The former brought out the bully and mafioso spirit in Lance's disagreeable character, whereas the later has brought out the gang overlord spirit in him. Not being able to humilate his rival Contador in the same way, Lance resorted to rallying his tribe (with Bruyneel at the top, whom LA has made a very rich man) against him, to isolate him and hope that he would fold under pressure.

The terrible (for Armstrong) thing about Contador, is that he places Lance's entire career under a new light. Because Contador at his best is even better than Lance during his golden years. And this is eating away at LA's immense pride. As an American athlete he was able to project a global image of the sport in a way that the Spaniard will never be able to do. However the fact is that the Spaniard is the greater talent. And this just as Lance entered retirement, when he thought that nobody would even come close (let alone rival) his physical prowess for decades if not an entire century. So what does the dethrowned champ do: come out of retirement to try and settle the matter physically (for which the whole cancer thing was, and has always been, a mere pretext) if possible and when that didn't work he began the demonizing campaign.

But to the discerning eye, what was seen only painted LA in an even less flattering light than previously. One who thought of himself as an immortal, has suddenly found himself to be what everybody else truly is: a mere mortal.

 

[flicker]

cheetah

Tiger has/had the big fan base because he was dominating and he was of mixed race in what was a white mans' sport. He married a white because he could. I feel terrible for his kids his wife and for Tiger.

His Dad was a terrible role model.

I see the same thing with Lance except Lance is white and the sports are completely different.

I never followed Indurain but from what I heard he was a bland character.

What I don't like is fan-boy, antyi fan-boy behavior.

Lance is larger than life,I see ego more than lier. Maybe the ego is a part ofa lie.

Just please people get over the man-love thing. I saw to much of that in San Francisco where I grew up.

That includes you too Paul, Phil and Bob.

 

[Digger]

Tiger has/had the big fan base because he was dominating and he was of mixed race in what was a white mans' sport. He married a white because he could. I feel terrible for his kids his wife and for Tiger.

His Dad was a terrible role model.

I see the same thing with Lance except Lance is white and the sports are completely different.

I never followed Indurain but from what I heard he was a bland character.

What I don't like is fan-boy, antyi fan-boy behavior.

Lance is larger than life,I see ego more than lier. Maybe the ego is a part ofa lie.

Just please people get over the man-love thing. I saw to much of that in San Francisco where I grew up.

That includes you too Paul, Phil and Bob.

not liking yourself evidently

 

[Mellow Velo]

I have nothing against OP specifically. I just don't agree with the practice of elevating lower finishers when those above are DQ'd.

Erase the cheaters names from the record books, but OP still finished second, he did not win.

Sorry, but that's just bollocks. FL was caught during the race on stage 17. From that point, he was out.
The fact that we didn't know it at the time and the confirmation process was a long time being legitimised, doesn't change the winner.
What if Ricco had tested positive on stage 17 of the 2008 Tour, instead of stage 10 and finished in yellow?
Pereiro won the 2006 Tour.

 

[Polish]

2006 was an exciting tour

What if Ricco had tested positive on stage 17 of the 2008 Tour, instead of stage 10 and finished in yellow?
Pereiro won the 2006 Tour.

If Ricco finished in Yellow he would have been the Winner Duh.

The winner is the rider who gets to ALL THE WAY to Paris in the least amount of time.
If the Testors drag their feet too bad.

Floyd was and is the winner in 2006.

However, there should be an asterick next to his 2006 win saying "Doped" winner.

Of course, there should also be about 70-80 astericks when looking at the historical list of TdF winners

 

[Mellow Velo]

Floyd was and is the winner in 2006.

Another failed piece of revisionism.

He might be in your house, but in the real world he's just another loser.
Pereiro's got the shirt.

 

[Polish]

Another failed piece of revisionism.

He might be in your house, but in the real world he's just another loser.
Pereiro's got the shirt.

Mellow, you are the one revising history lol.

Floyd got the shirt first. I hope he kept it!
Pereiro's Yellow Jersey is a knockoff.

 

[VeloCity]

If Ricco finished in Yellow he would have been the Winner Duh.

The winner is the rider who gets to ALL THE WAY to Paris in the least amount of time.
If the Testors drag their feet too bad.

Floyd was and is the winner in 2006.

However, there should be an asterick next to his 2006 win saying "Doped" winner.

Of course, there should also be about 70-80 astericks when looking at the historical list of TdF winners

So that women who won the NYC marathon many years back after taking the subway part of the way should also be considered the winner? She did get there the fastest and no one knew until after she finished, after all. Or how about if a rider were to hitch a ride in the team car up the Alpe and no one notices until after the Tour is over? Still the winner?

Cheating is cheating, and if you get caught cheating, you're disqualified and the next guy on the list is proclaimed the winner, simple as that. Although, on the other hand, I have little doubt that OP was doping as well, but still, he didn't get caught.

 

[Polish]

So that women who won the NYC marathon many years back after taking the subway part of the way should also be considered the winner? She did get there the fastest and no one knew until after she finished, after all. Or how about if a rider were to hitch a ride in the team car up the Alpe and no one notices until after the Tour is over? Still the winner?

Cheating is cheating, and if you get caught cheating, you're disqualified and the next guy on the list is proclaimed the winner, simple as that. Although, on the other hand, I have little doubt that OP was doping as well, but still, he didn't get caught.

There is not a "subway" in France - it is called "The Métro".
Are you saying Floyd took the Métro into Paris?
Do you know which line he took? Do have an interwebs evidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Métro

 

[Polish]

So that women who won the NYC marathon many years back after taking the subway part of the way should also be considered the winner? .

If women runners had been using the subway to win the NYC marathon for the last hundred years - then yes, she finished first fair and square.

Hopefully, the runners buy tickets like everyone else.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Thanks for that.
Put to bed any thoughts I had of continuing this debate.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/tourdefrance/2007-10-15-pereiro-tour-jersey_N.htm

Letterman's Top 10 Floyd Landis Excuses
10. "High altitude in the Alps made daddy dizzy"
9. "Who can resist Balco's delicious 'spicy chipotle' flavor
8. "I was trying to impress Sheryl Crow"
7. "Uh...global warming?"
6. "The world hates Americans already, so does this really matter?"
5. "French *******s must have dosed my quiche"
4. "Wanted to give 'New York Post' excuse to run hilarious 'Fink Floyd' headline"
3. "Hulk no need excuse"
2. "Frankly, I'd rather be a disgrace than a loser"
1. "Screw you - - I'm Floyd ***damn Landis"

Since we are set on trying to take the piss.

 

[Anonymous]

If Ricco finished in Yellow he would have been the Winner Duh.

The winner is the rider who gets to ALL THE WAY to Paris in the least amount of time.
If the Testors drag their feet too bad.

Floyd was and is the winner in 2006.

However, there should be an asterick next to his 2006 win saying "Doped" winner.

Of course, there should also be about 70-80 astericks when looking at the historical list of TdF winners

That is a nice opinion that no one agrees with when it comes to making rules. In other words, it is silly. Floyd cheated, got caught, and got tossed. He appealed and lost. So he won nothing.

 

[blackcat]

Thatès a nice opinion that no one agrees with when it comes to making rules. In other words, it is silly. Floyd cheated, got caught, and got tossed. He appealed and lost. So he won nothing.

depends how you define cheating? The more I learn, the more I think Floyd got screwed over.

Did he take the testo? Undoubtedly. Did he take other PEDs? Undoubtedly, he had some O2 enhancement coursing thru his system.

Did he cheat? Who did he cheat?

You can make a case he cheated the public. But the sport writ large is guilty of that.

 

[Anonymous]

depends how you define cheating? The more I learn, the more I think Floyd got screwed over.

Did he take the testo? Undoubtedly. Did he take other PEDs? Undoubtedly, he had some O2 enhancement coursing thru his system.

Did he cheat? Who did he cheat?

You can make a case he cheated the public. But the sport writ large is guilty of that.

Well he got caught cheating. No insinuations or assumptions. He got nailed.

 

[flicker]

Hey unfair

Please do not beat up on Floyd anymore. He defrauded and it has been proven.

He has beaten himself really. Let it lie dudes. Guys been beaten.

 

[Polish]

Thatès a nice opinion that no one agrees with when it comes to making rules. In other words, it is silly. Floyd cheated, got caught, and got tossed. He appealed and lost. So he won nothing.

I agree absolutely with everything you say....except the last sentence.
He won the 2006 TdF.

And I have no problem with Oscar, the 2nd place finisher, having an asterick placed next to his name designating that fact.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree absolutely with everything you say....except the last sentence.
He won the 2006 TdF.

And I have no problem with Oscar, the 2nd place finisher, having an asterick placed next to his name designating that fact.

So you agree that your opinion is silly. Good, we are in agreement.

 

[Polish]

So agree that your opinion is silly. Good, we are in agreement.

I was going to suggest "stupid", but I liked "silly" better. Much more polite.

CyclingNews presents the Final GC Standings correctly BTW,
Floyd in First with the asterick

Final General classification

1 (*) Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak 89.39.30 (40.784 km/h)
2 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.57
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile 1.29
4 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 3.13
5 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 5.08
6 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 7.06
7 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 8.41
8 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 9.37
9 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 12.05
10 Michael Rogers (Aus) T-Mobile 15.07
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/tour06/?id=results/tour0620

 

[Berzin]

If women runners had been using the subway to win the NYC marathon for the last hundred years - then yes, she finished first fair and square.

She finished first, but it wasn't fair and square if she took the train to get to the finish line.

This is where you are wrong.

And being accused or suspected of cheating is not the same as getting caught. It's the same only in the court of public opinion.

So Floyd is justifiably stricken from the record books as ever having taken part in the Tour of 2006 because he was caught cheating.

This is how it should be, your convoluted sense of morality and sportsmanship notwithstanding.