Armstrong Misleads & Swindles Livestrong Donors

[thehog]

If i was running a cancer 'charity', the last thing i would have told him is bring $4000 and you can ride your bike with Lance.

Saying other countries have different health care is missing the point.

Livewrong were supposed to be a cancer 'charity' for people with cancer, but we know it aint, it is a slush fund for a few.

Charities are neither Doctors nor are they there to provide healthcare.

But what LS really said is "we'll help you raise money, with the first $4000 going to us, the rest to assist you. We'll provide all the marketing materials and volunteers if you need them. If you get to x amount of dollars you can come down and rode with Lance".

I'm not a fan of the business model. It's bad but that's the US.

Call a congressmen's office for assistance in your state and the first thing they'll ask is "did you vote for "x" and now much did you donate this year".

Depending on your answer is how much assistance you'll get.

And that's why I draw the healthcare debate into the issue. Smith finds himself in the position he's in because Americans are so uncomfortable with paying for their fellow mans healthcare.

Not a perfect world. Waiting lines, delays, large wards but in most countries if Smith had scheduled in his check-ups he would have been seen by a Doctor and for free. He would have received all his blood markers result without the need of calling a faux charity.

I'm not fighting anyone that LS is a terrible charity but we should see why people find themselves in a position whereby they have to call in "favours" for healthcare.

Slightly off topic but I've seen Doctors in the US sue patients in court so they are paid for treatment. The guy I knew was hit by a drunk driver. Required months of rehabilitation work with no insurance but promised that his settlement from the driver would pay. As it tuned out the driver had no insurance either. So my friend had to sue the bar they served the alcohol to pay his Doctors for the medical treatment. Doctors, lawyers, court, more lawyers, doctors etc.

And that's why people get desperate and call a charity looking for actual medical assistance.

That's a mad mad mad world.

 

[Merckx index]

But what LS really said is "we'll help you raise money, with the first $4000 going to us, the rest to assist you. We'll provide all the marketing materials and volunteers if you need them. If you get to x amount of dollars you can come down and rode with Lance".

And if you can't raise $4000, tough sh!t. I may be missing something, but I have never heard of a charity that serves people by asking them to raise money. Every charity I've ever been involved with simply donates money or services to the needy. Even those microloans in the third world countries only ask the individuals to pay the money back when their business allows that. And the whole purpose of the charity is to help people make money--that's what people who apply to the charity want to do.

I'm not a fan of the business model. It's bad but that's the US.

Call a congressmen's office for assistance in your state and the first thing they'll ask is "did you vote for "x" and now much did you donate this year".

Depending on your answer is how much assistance you'll get.

That has never been my experience, and I invite anyone who has actually been asked this to post so in this thread. Congressman are there to serve everyone in their district, regardless of how they voted, and I've never heard of a politician who would deny that.

That doesn't mean that politicians can't be bought, that they don't do favors for people in return for helping get them elected, but if someone goes to his Congressman with the kind of problem that an elected official has the power to do something about, he will not be asked first how he voted. That really is absurd. Sometimes a Congressman may be asked to help someone with visa or immigration problems who isn't even qualified to vote.

And that's why I draw the healthcare debate into the issue. Smith finds himself in the position he's in because Americans are so uncomfortable with paying for their fellow mans healthcare.

Not a perfect world. Waiting lines, delays, large wards but in most countries if Smith had scheduled in his check-ups he would have been seen by a Doctor and for free. He would have received all his blood markers result without the need of calling a faux charity.

Actually, I spend a lot of time in a country where there not only is no universal health care, but where you can't even be admitted to the ER if you can't prove that you can pay. Many people die from gunshot wounds, stabbings, car accidents and other sources of trauma who could be saved, because they're refused service. Bad as the U.S. system is in many respects, people with acute problems here can get treated for free. It happens all the time, and as many have pointed out, is a major expense that universal health care can eliminate.

 

[Scott SoCal]

You missed my point. RLSmith was trying to find assistance or suggestions for how to get a followup done ..a simple checkup….not "cancer treatment" or procedures…He was simply asking for some references or direction to places/agencies that help those that have no insurance or money.
THAT is what LS touts itself as "doing" ..what the hell was the LS guy wasting his time with Smith then..?? trolling for $$ ?

speaking of the t-word..

Yep. Hog deflecting to the state of healthcare in the US totally and on purpose misses the point.

It's dooshbaggery on display in what was a top-down problem at LAF. It was never about anything other than accommodating Lance in the event this cycling thing didn't work out.

 

[thehog]

Yep. Hog deflecting to the state of healthcare in the US totally and on purpose misses the point.

It's dooshbaggery on display in what was a top-down problem at LAF. It was never about anything other than accommodating Lance in the event this cycling thing didn't work out.

Which is exactly what I have said in regards to LAF.

But you still can't get away from the fact of a lack universal health cover. That is why Smith found himself in the position he was in.

The crux being, he shouldn't have to call a charity for help. He should be able to ring his doctor and not fear he'd have to remortgage his bike shop to get a basic checkup!

If he lived in he UK he wouldn't be calling livestrong. He'd be scheduling an appointment with his doctor.

And that's why cancer charities in the UK do provide services and assistance that work. Because they compliment the healthcare system.

Perhaps some thought rather than shooting from the hip is in order.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Charities are neither Doctors nor are they there to provide healthcare.

But what LS really said is "we'll help you raise money, with the first $4000 going to us, the rest to assist you. We'll provide all the marketing materials and volunteers if you need them. If you get to x amount of dollars you can come down and rode with Lance".

I'm not a fan of the business model. It's bad but that's the US.

Call a congressmen's office for assistance in your state and the first thing they'll ask is "did you vote for "x" and now much did you donate this year".

Depending on your answer is how much assistance you'll get.

And that's why I draw the healthcare debate into the issue. Smith finds himself in the position he's in because Americans are so uncomfortable with paying for their fellow mans healthcare.

Not a perfect world. Waiting lines, delays, large wards but in most countries if Smith had scheduled in his check-ups he would have been seen by a Doctor and for free. He would have received all his blood markers result without the need of calling a faux charity.

I'm not fighting anyone that LS is a terrible charity but we should see why people find themselves in a position whereby they have to call in "favours" for healthcare.

Slightly off topic but I've seen Doctors in the US sue patients in court so they are paid for treatment. The guy I knew was hit by a drunk driver. Required months of rehabilitation work with no insurance but promised that his settlement from the driver would pay. As it tuned out the driver had no insurance either. So my friend had to sue the bar they served the alcohol to pay his Doctors for the medical treatment. Doctors, lawyers, court, more lawyers, doctors etc.

And that's why people get desperate and call a charity looking for actual medical assistance.

That's a mad mad mad world.

Actually, that is false.

Health insurance premiums are high in part due to hospital care charges which are high in part to non-compensated care provided.

That a grown man competing in a inherently dangerous sport never bothered to even provide for himself a catastrophic coverage health insurance policy speaks to many things.

But, that was not the point. The point was that, when asked for help, LAF wanted a donation first.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Which is exactly what I have said in regards to LAF.

But you still can't get away from the fact of a lack universal health cover. That is why Smith found himself in the position he was in.

The crux being, he shouldn't have to call a charity for help. He should be able to ring his doctor and not fear he'd have to remortgage his bike shop to get a basic checkup!

If he lived in he UK he wouldn't be calling livestrong. He'd be scheduling an appointment with his doctor.

And that's why cancer charities in the UK do provide services and assistance that work. Because they compliment the healthcare system.

Perhaps some thought rather than shooting from the hip is in order.

Smith found himself in a position the vast majority of Americans don't find themselves in because they actually go out and purchase insurance.

If Smith had crashed his car and not bothered to purchase car insurance what position would he have found himself in?

Perhaps staying on topic instead of deflecting to OT bull**** is in order.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Not sure what the question relates to.

It's worth watching the video again: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5QfmKivPwjI

Smith is right. LS is a bunch if ***. But he admits he has no health cover or insurance. That in itself in the US is a death sentence. Not sure many outside the US knows what that actually means. It means no health care. Nada. Unless you take a loan, remortgage or borrow money.

Sad but true.

I'd forget Armstrong in this case and concentrate on the Affordable Care Act.

More BS. If one is able to borrow money or has a mortgage one has the ability to have any number of health insurance plans.

What does ACA require? You guessed it. The purchase of health insurance.

 

[thehog]

Smith found himself in a position the vast majority of Americans don't find themselves in because they actually go out and purchase insurance.

If Smith had crashed his car and not bothered to purchase car insurance what position would he have found himself in?

Perhaps staying on topic instead of deflecting to OT bull**** is in order.

I don't disagree with you. Smith didn't pay for health insurance which is precisely the point. In several countries you don't need to purchase health care insurance.

It's provided by the state. Free or charge. He would have the health care he needed and not felt so vulnerable in his remission.

And to the point many Americans can't afford health insurance. Pointing fingers and saying "stupid them" doesn't address the issue. It compounds it.

 

[Scott SoCal]

I don't disagree with you. Smith didn't pay for health insurance which is precisely the point. In several countries you don't need to purchase health care insurance.

It's provided by the state. Free or charge. He would have the health care he needed and not felt so vulnerable in his remission.

And to the point many Americans can't afford health insurance. Pointing fingers and saying "stupid them" doesn't address the issue. It compounds it.

Nothing is free, Hog.

Smith was in the US and I'll bet he was very aware of how our system works. Good, bad or indifferent.

You are simply deflecting to something that isn't part of the story. Hop over to the US politics thread and I'll continue to tell you how wrong you are.

 

[Race Radio]

This thread is about discussing Livestrong. The current topic is about how JT asked for guidance on post treatment screenings and the response was to be asked to raise $4,000 to ride with Lance. Given Livestrong promotes itself as a source of post treatment advice and guidance (Suvivorship) it is surprising that instead of pointing him to the many free/low cost options available to him they tried to sell him a $4,000 bike ride.

There is a thread to discuss the various aspect of US healthcare, taxes, and politics here

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=15662

 

[thehog]

Nothing is free, Hog.

Smith was in the US and I'll bet he was very aware of how our system works. Good, bad or indifferent.

You are simply deflecting to something that isn't part of the story. Hop over to the US politics thread and I'll continue to tell you how wrong you are.

True. We all pay taxes. Well most do.

Per your argument; on one hand you appear upset the way that LS expect a donation but at the same time you state "the guy didn't buy insurance" so stupid him.

You're effectively holding the same position as Livestrong does. You can see that, yes?

You and Livestrong are not that far apart in the views that you hold.

And telling me "I'm wrong" is so disappointing. There's no wrong or right here.

Just a lack of health cover and it's worthy of discussion and how Livestrong were able to get the foothold they did and grow so big.

 

[Scott SoCal]

True. We all pay taxes. Well most do.

Per your argument; on one hand you appear upset the way that LS expect a donation but at the same time you state "the guy didn't buy insurance" so stupid him.

You're effectively holding the same position as Livestrong does. You can see that, yes?

You and Livestrong are not that far apart in the views that you hold.

And telling me "I'm wrong" is so disappointing. There's no wrong or right here.

Just a lack of health cover and it's worthy of discussion and how Livestrong were able to get the foothold they did and grow so big.

Per your argument; on one hand you appear upset the way that LS expect a donation but at the same time you state "the guy didn't buy insurance" so stupid him.

You're effectively holding the same position as Livestrong does. You can see that, yes?

Oh boy.

Just a lack of health cover and it's worthy of discussion and how Livestrong were able to get the foothold they did and grow so big

Big is relative. LS received donations from many different directions. That Lance was a rockstar and had the worldwide branding help of Nike didn't hurt.

On one hand you say Americans don't like to pay for fellow Americans health care and on the other you marvel at how big LS got through charitable giving. You can see that, yes?

 

[thehog]

Oh boy.



Big is relative. LS received donations from many different directions. That Lance was a rockstar and had the worldwide branding help of Nike didn't hurt.

On one hand you say Americans don't like to pay for fellow Americans health care and on the other you marvel at how big LS got through charitable giving. You can see that, yes?

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying. I'm actually not trying to argue with you.

I'm giving details per my own experience with cancer, health care and charities.

In Smith's case is that what he needed was healthcare. Not a charity. The fact that he called LS was his choice. The response he recieved wasn't what he was looking for. That's because he wanted someone or something to pay for his healthcare.

Like you say he had no insurance, hadn't paid for any (or chosen not too) and appears he wanted LS to pay for it? Would this be a correct assumption?

My point is in an any other country in the world the call he would be making would be to his doctor to book an appointment. Not to a charity to find a way to pay for his medical treatment.

The sham that was Livestrong remains. But they never pretended that they fund healthcare for individuals. There are charities that offer grants and low interests loans and maybe that's where he should have went.

Your thoughts?

 

[Scott SoCal]

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying. I'm actually not trying to argue with you.

I'm giving details per my own experience with cancer, health care and charities.

In Smith's case is that what he needed was healthcare. Not a charity. The fact that he called LS was his choice. The response he recieved wasn't what he was looking for. That's because he wanted someone or something to pay for his healthcare.

Like you say he had no insurance, hadn't paid for any (or chosen not too) and appears he wanted LS to pay for it? Would this be a correct assumption?

My point is in an any other country in the world the call he would be making would be to his doctor to book an appointment. Not to a charity to find a way to pay for his medical treatment.

The sham that was Livestrong remains. But they never pretended that they fund healthcare for individuals. There are charities that offer grants and low interests loans and maybe that's where he should have went.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are the state of the American healthcare system should not be discussed in this thread.

My thoughts are this; Smith went to LS looking to be pointed in the right direction and what he got was a solicitation. That LS had an opportunity to help (their mission, even help Smith with "awareness") and didn't, at least in this case, is the topic.

 

[thehog]

My thoughts are the state of the American healthcare system should not be discussed in this thread.

My thoughts are this; Smith went to LS looking to be pointed in the right direction and what he got was a solicitation. That LS had an opportunity to help (their mission, even help Smith with "awareness") and didn't, at least in this case, is the topic.

Sure. Leaving out the healthcare system for a moment.

You're right. It's sounds like he got a solicitation. But truth be known we don't know what the conversation was. Perhaps they did point him to other organisations that could assist with the payment of his treatment?

Smith had called Armstrong before and received the best medical care due to favours.

He was helped more than most. What else was expected? He wanted more help than he already received?

An unfortunate consequence of 501 tax free exempt charities is they are required to have "sustainable funding". This forces them to behave in the way they do. The Spastic Society comes under great criticism for placing severely handicapped people in the streets as "change collectors". It's sad reality that charities have to behave like actual companies do and report their financials etc. and dream marketing up methods to garnish more donations. They cannot simply give away money or treatment to anyone who phones them up.

And then we come full circle back to healthcare.

Is it the role of charities to support the healthcare of our society or government by the people for the people?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Hog mate, during your ban did you read about american healthcare system?

 

[Race Radio]

Smith had called Armstrong before and received the best medical care due to favours.

No, he didn't.

A friend of RL's got a phone number from Lance's mom. The result was an offer of a phone call to his doctor

 

[thehog]

Hog mate, during your ban did you read about american healthcare system?

I didn't need to read about it.

I lived through it with myself and my own family in 3 different countries with respect to cancer treatments thereof.

You tend to find a life determining situation makes you learn a lot about healthcare in a very short space of time.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Sure. Leaving out the healthcare system for a moment.

You're right. It's sounds like he got a solicitation. But truth be known we don't know what the conversation was. Perhaps they did point him to other organisations that could assist with the payment of his treatment?

Smith had called Armstrong before and received the best medical care due to favours.

He was helped more than most. What else was expected? He wanted more help than he already received?

An unfortunate consequence of 501 tax free exempt charities is they are required to have "sustainable funding". This forces them to behave in the way they do. The Spastic Society comes under great criticism for placing severely handicapped people in the streets as "change collectors". It's sad reality that charities have to behave like actual companies do and report their financials etc. and dream marketing up methods to garnish more donations. They cannot simply give away money or treatment to anyone who phones them up.

And then we come full circle back to healthcare.

Is it the role of charities to support the healthcare of our society or government by the people for the people?

Start a new thread.

 

[thehog]

Start a new thread.

No, it's fine. I think my points were well made.

We can leave it there.

 

[zigmeister]

Livewrong = fraud.

Nice try...you should be banned for that ridiculous crap that you are supposedly quoting me that I'm a Livestrong/Armstrong fan.

Just pathetic bro...

US Health Care Reality check people.

Each and every person is 100% responsible for the cost of their health care in this Country. We don't need another thread on this subject, this is the reality and facts of it listed right here.

That guy can whine/cry all he wants post cancer treatment in front of a crowd because of some d-bag comment, he was looking for somebody to pay his bills and give him free "health care". Plain and simple. He said over and over he had no health care. He forgets to add, he made a conscious choice to NOT have health care which he could have purchased prior to any diagnosis of cancer. He would have got it nearly 100% covered by the health plan.

It is called taking ownership and responsibility for yourself, not put the blame on every other Tom, D*ck, Jane and Harry because somehow you feel entitled and have a story to tell.

How that reflects on ANY charitable organization is beyond comprehension, sensibility, reason and logic in all shapes and forms. Which goes for your sad sad fake quote.

Did you read the part I wrote above closely about how each person is 100% responsible for their own health care in the US??? You can buy an insurance plan, you can have an employer that offers one, Medicare/Obamacare...whatever, you have to pay out of pocket for the premium, cost of deductible etc...or entire cost out of pocket cash, your free choice.

So...how much did this guy, who decided willingly to not have a health insurance plan spend on traveling to Europe to race, compete, or around the US on racing/training in the sport??? 100K? 200K? Yet, he wants to fill out a form at Livestrong, and expect what exactly??? Some doctor to run thousands of dollars of tests, or a charity to pay for this follow-up?

He could have found a job and went to any oncologist, and said hey, how much to check me out, put some money aside to cover the costs. Or, did he keep spending it on racing instead?????? Or expect to fill out a form and Livestrong would do what? Cover the costs? He didn't need Livestrong to provide any resources/direction. As a cancer patient, he knew exactly that any oncologist, whose specialty is treating guess what, cancer, is where you go to be "checked out"!!!! So that makes his statements about Livestrong, or any charity for that matter, absolutely silly and holds zero value to most people. Surely his cancer doctors told him, hey, you better go to your local oncologist for checkups. Yet, he says for a year, he chose NOT to seek any treatment or get a job and pay for the costs. Also, ALL insurance companies are required to provide you with a health care plan, even if he had a pre-existing condition, that means cancer! So he could still get health insurance and pay for it to this day.

This isn't Canada, England, or any other socialist country, it is the USA.

That is how it works here.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Each and every person is 100% responsible for the cost of their health care in this Country.

Fairy tales are nice. Rugged individualism! What are you doing in my way? Wastrel! Go America!

Start another thread and I'm happy to reply in detail.

 

[blackcat]

This isn't Canada, England, or any other socialist country, it is the USA.

That is how it works here.

hyperbole or health care? or both?

like to see your definition of socialism too. Alot live high on the hog on the taxpayer in y'America too. Lots of rent-seeking. heck, there is an entire rent seeking industry in DC built on it. K-Street?

 

[Alpe73]

Start another thread and I'm happy to reply in detail.

Don't be silly, DW. This is just deflection ... akin to fallacious appeal to authority.

Zig's analysis is just as relevant to the tabloid thread, "ARMSTRONG MISLEADS AND SWINDLES DONORS", as anything you and others have proffered. He/she addresses 'the complainant' who (sometime in the past) was supposedly, deplorably, unconscionably, unscrupulously maltreated by the 'supposed' malevolent, 'piece of ***' cancer charity, Livestrong.org.

He added some background, clarity and some objectivity to the threaded topic. What's wrong with that?

 

[Alpe73]

No, it's fine. I think my points were well made

You made some very decent points. Thanks.