Articles about $10,000 bikes - What's the point?

[BroDeal]

This is the company that is selling suckers a 10K frameset? Maybe they should figure out how to make their regular frames before building a halo one. On the plus side, they have so much experience replacing broken frames that they are very good and quick at it.

http://forums.serotta.com/showthread.php?t=100721

I have cracked four R-series frames in the last 24 months (all pre-2011 BBRight)...all cracked at the BB just like yours. If you visit the Cervelo forum you will see hundreds of others report the same issue with the R-series frames (all with cracks at BB).

Cervelo has never taken more then 10 days to issue a full frame/fork replacement with no questions asked. In fact they even upgraded my frame along the way. Their customer service is quite strong, unfortunately they have caused a lot of problems for those who have to keep paying a shop wrench to tear down and rebuild their bike. For me its not an issue because its the only time I really get to work on my bike.

Take it to your local Cervelo dealer, have them get the warranty replacement process started including sending pics immediately up to Toronto, then you need to follow-up with Cervelo directly and make sure they forwarded pics to Toronto and got the replacement approved. Shouldn't take more then a few days to get approved and then Cervelo will send out the replacement frame to the shop. In your case you will get a 2011 or 2012 with the new BBRight, which depending on what crank you are using, you may have to switch up (see BBRight compatible BB systems at bbright.net)

 

[BroDeal]

This contains a list of inflation adjusted prices for team bikes going back to 1975.

http://www.flandriacafe.com/2011/12/will-real-one-percent-please-stand-up.html

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

This contains a list of inflation adjsuted prices for team bikes going back to 1975.

http://www.flandriacafe.com/2011/12/will-real-one-percent-please-stand-up.html

Great find. The prices of these bikes are insulting. There is no bike out there remotely close to being worth $9k, let alone what some of these clowns like Specialized are charging for them.

BMC wants $6500 for an Impec frame. Pinarello wants $6500 for the BoB Di2 Dogma2 frame. Total BS.

Don't even get me started on those Cervelo jokers.

 

[Granville57]

This contains a list of inflation adjsuted prices for team bikes going back to 1975.

http://www.flandriacafe.com/2011/12/will-real-one-percent-please-stand-up.html

Good article. This was well said:

It's a disturbing trend for the cycling as a sport I think. Increasingly positioning cycling as an 'elite' activity. It parallels other developments in professional cycling. I know it has never been the 'real world', but the sport is increasingly moving into an elite bubble. Literally and figuratively. With teams formed and supported by private equity benefactors vs. the 'commercial' sponsors ever since Nivea and St. Raphael used pro cycling to sell affordable stuff to normal people.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

This contains a list of inflation adjsuted prices for team bikes going back to 1975.

http://www.flandriacafe.com/2011/12/will-real-one-percent-please-stand-up.html

But I think these stupidly-expensive luxury bikes are there to get more consumers feel like they're actually saving money, by (gladly) spending up to $4,000-$5,000 on that next bike instead of the more prudent $2,000- $3,000 option that's still available, probably more appropriate and frankly, way more than good enough for their ability.

Sounds like he's saying the beyond-reproach Colnago brand is a waste of money.

It would be interesting too if the author had also looked at the price of Campy Record over the years. I'm guessing it would show a much higher rise than the rate of inflation, though probably not as much as team bike inflation.

I agree with the author, though, that halo bikes are not about pushing technology (is there anything more ridiculous than sub-6.8kg bikes with ballast?); they are marketing and price-point exercises.

 

[BroDeal]

It would be interesting too if the author had also looked at the price of Campy Record over the years. I'm guessing it would show a much higher rise than the rate of inflation, though probably not as much as team bike inflation.

Campy? Have you checked out the price of Ultegra lately? Shimano wants a brother to pay five bills for a pair of shifters. True that the street price is more like $350, but Shimano's MSRP is as much as a whole Ultegra gruppo cost not long ago. And the crap uses more plastic than ever.

The whole bike industry has become one giant scam fueled by money from middle aged yuppies trying to impress their fellow century riders. I'm going run amuck if I meet one more of these chubs who goes on about the performance of his bike only to reveal in later conversation that he is "training" for the MS150 or some other recreational ride.

 

[Parera]

Campy? Have you checked out the price of Ultegra lately? Shimano wants a brother to pay five bills for a pair of shifters. True that the street price is more like $350, but Shimano's MSRP is as much as a whole Ultegra gruppo cost not long ago. And the crap uses more plastic than ever.

The whole bike industry has become one giant scam fueled by money from middle aged yuppies trying to impress their fellow century riders. I'm going run amuck if I meet one more of these chubs who goes on about the performance of his bike only to reveal in later conversation that he is "training" for the MS150 or some other recreational ride.

Meanwhile you can find Veloce PS levers for under $150 w/ cables & housing fairly easily. But hey, Veloce sucks because it's 6th tier Campagnolo, right?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Buying Campy in the States is crazy. European prices are cheaper than QBP.

It's a known fact that you can very often buy frames and parts from Europe for cheaper than dealer cost in the US.

 

[DirtyWorks]

That inflation adjusted pricing is a nice reference. But, c'mon now. How much lighter is stuff in 2011 than 20+ years ago? Quite a bit! And that weight savings engineering costs money.

Go 'full retro' for a minute and get some half-decent alloy framesets in 2011 with tektro brakes, and some kinlin alloy wheels on it, and a bunch of other good, but OEM stuff. (Ritchey without the Ritchey brand) What's the highest possible price you could get? Less than half a full-carbon Merida/Kinesis/OEM. Volume? 1/5th a carbon OEM. Surly is about as close to a successful 'sensible' bike business as I've seen in a long while. Specialized and Trek have nothing to worry about from Surly.

The business math doesn't keep the doors open very long selling sensible bikes. It would be nice if it did because I think lots more people would actually ride bikes. People want what they want whether it's advisable or not and they pay for it. And they LIKE paying more. Marketers know this and exploit it to great effect.

As I've said previously, the $10,000+ bikes are a different market. They are sold into status-sensitive buyers with lots of money and seeking new ways to show off their wealth, much like the market for art.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Campy? Have you checked out the price of Ultegra lately?

I picked Campy Record because it's been around long enough (and presumably doesn't come with the stink of being a commodity) that it offers a real reference point since 1975.

Though I prefer Campy, I'd hate to imagine what its prices would be like had Shimano not gotten into the action. (Then again, maybe Shimano's entry has ultimately had no effect: they've completely beaten Campy on market share, so it could be that Campy is more or less free to charge what it wants to the minority of consumers who don't want Shimano, period.)

 

[Maxiton]

This contains a list of inflation adjsuted prices for team bikes going back to 1975.

http://www.flandriacafe.com/2011/12/will-real-one-percent-please-stand-up.html

Yeah, that is a great find. And a great blog, too, from the looks of it. I like that guy. So far, I agree with everything he says.

 

[ElChingon]

Yes, bike prices can get way over the top but does everyone really think its too much?

Is it too much for an employee in the process of getting a bike to you (whether it be making, re-selling, delivering, assembling) to ask for some money, a 401K, health insurance, year end bonus, paid time off, sick leave? Then the taxes involved along the way from origin to getting to the end customer.

Or does everyone here on the forum just live off the land?

Its this kind of whining that's got us in some of the problems of everything being made by non-free 3rd-world country humans. Everyone is out to not pay what ever is being asked yet everyone wants a bonus, salary increase, health insurance, 401k, PTO, sick leave. Something has to give along the way.

Of course one does not have to buy anything, or one could make it themselves or cut something from the process to get a deal.

 

[richwagmn]

Campy? Have you checked out the price of Ultegra lately? Shimano wants a brother to pay five bills for a pair of shifters. True that the street price is more like $350, but Shimano's MSRP is as much as a whole Ultegra gruppo cost not long ago. And the crap uses more plastic than ever.

The whole bike industry has become one giant scam fueled by money from middle aged yuppies trying to impress their fellow century riders. I'm going run amuck if I meet one more of these chubs who goes on about the performance of his bike only to reveal in later conversation that he is "training" for the MS150 or some other recreational ride.

You're calling Ultegra crap?

And who gives a **** if some "chub" as you call them buys a nice bike to maybe lose some weight and or raise money for a charitable cause?

Maybe because he has a bike, he won't squeeze you off the road when he passes you in a car. Maybe he'll stop and help out if crash and can't get home. And maybe his buying a bike helps to support an industry that benefits us all.

Sheesh.

 

[BroDeal]

And who gives a **** if some "chub" as you call them buys a nice bike to maybe lose some weight and or raise money for a charitable cause?

The truth must cut cut deep. Sorry, chubby, if you cannot see the utter ridiculousness of a recreational porker regurgitating marketing BS that exaggerates nil to neglible performance increases of bikes that won't ever be used for anything other than a charity ride then I cannot help you.

 

[Parera]

Yes, bike prices can get way over the top but does everyone really think its too much?

Is it too much for an employee in the process of getting a bike to you (whether it be making, re-selling, delivering, assembling) to ask for some money, a 401K, health insurance, year end bonus, paid time off, sick leave? Then the taxes involved along the way from origin to getting to the end customer.

Or does everyone here on the forum just live off the land?

Its this kind of whining that's got us in some of the problems of everything being made by non-free 3rd-world country humans. Everyone is out to not pay what ever is being asked yet everyone wants a bonus, salary increase, health insurance, 401k, PTO, sick leave. Something has to give along the way.

I don't follow your reasoning here. As per the blog post, bikes at the top end of a range used to cost significantly less, during an era when they were overwhelmingly produced in the West. And now today we have carbon bikes being produced in large numbers in the far East and the cost has skyrocketed.

Why are custom options in the same neighborhood price wise as a S-Works Venge? The smaller frame builders aren't benefiting from economies the way Specialized can, yet remarkably you can get a Calfee Tetra w/ custom geometry for less. Cyfac & Time, who are still building frames in France, produce bikes in this same price range as the S-Works Venge.

If you recall the article about Campagnolo, you will remember they are paying union wage for their metal workers yet amazingly produce components that are competitive and priced reasonably similar to their competition.

So please, clarify what your vague post is supposed to mean; I'm honestly confused. There are many examples in the bike industry where you are paying for first world labor and yet shockingly these products are on par in terms of price with the big brands and their cheap labor force.

 

[BroDeal]

Though I prefer Campy, I'd hate to imagine what its prices would be like had Shimano not gotten into the action. (Then again, maybe Shimano's entry has ultimately had no effect: they've completely beaten Campy on market share, so it could be that Campy is more or less free to charge what it wants to the minority of consumers who don't want Shimano, period.)

What makes you think that Campy would be more expensive? It's not like Shimano has held prices low, putting pressure on Campy to not raise its prices. Instead Shimano's prices have steadily risen until they are now just as expensive as Campy's.

What have we got in return? Ramped cassettes with working surfaces on the cogs that are as thin as a knife edge.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yes, bike prices can get way over the top but does everyone really think its too much?

Is it too much for an employee in the process of getting a bike to you (whether it be making, re-selling, delivering, assembling) to ask for some money, a 401K, health insurance, year end bonus, paid time off, sick leave? Then the taxes involved along the way from origin to getting to the end customer.

This argument is just silly. The people making those bikes in China get none of those things. The markup on these frames is through the roof. Or do you not realize that the $$ you pay for Specialized goes to fund their sponsorship of pro teams? You think they're out there paying for people to get those things?

You know who does? Time. Cyfac. Colnago. Yeah, those manufacturers who do not outsource to China. You just made the argument as to why we should NOT buy Specialized, Cannondale, Giant, etc.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The truth must cut cut deep. Sorry, chubby, if you cannot see the ridiculousness of a recreational porker regurgitating marketing BS that exaggerates nil to neglible performance increases of bikes that won't ever be used for anything other than doing a charity ride then I cannot help you.

+1000. Well said.

 

[Parera]

http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2007/11/bsnyc-thursday-fun-quiz-4.html

Funny, that was 4 years ago. Things are even more idiotic now.

 

[elapid]

I have ridden bikes all my life and I travel a lot and have been fortunate to witness bike infrastructure and culture in a number of different countries. Although I am making gross generalizations, bikes in most Western cultures are used for fitness and marketed on the basis of professional racing. This marketing has been tremedously effective - every Joe wants their carbon bike with Campy Record or DuraAce Di2. They will pay an additional $2K to save 200g on a frame with exactly the same geometry. They fork out thousands of dollars on Lightweight wheels. They pay hundreds of dollars for a jersey or bibs. How many riders out there need this technology? I would guess less than 1%. For that 1%, most of these bikes would not meet the UCI weight limit and they would need to add weight anyway. Marketing has won with so many of us swallowing this BS. (In fact, I've been criticized on this and the Cervelo forum for not aspiring to a carbon bike). There are $10K bikes out there because cycling is the new golf and there enough people out there that can afford the latest and greatest. I have no problems with this in general, but the trickle down effect is it makes cycling less affordable for the majority of us, it makes it more elitist and this in turn can act as a deterrent for people wanting to start cycling, and it takes us all away from the roots and history of cycling.

I love visiting Belgium and other European cities. They have wonderful cycling infrastructure; the majority of people will jump on their commuter bike in street clothes to ride to work, do shopping or go to the pub; and there is no pretence or need for an expensive bike or to dress in lycra and tight jerseys to go for a ride. I distinctly remember walking up Galibier in 2005 to watch the TdF stage - there were all sorts of tourists on their carbon bikes decked out in team kits struggling up the mountain. One French guy was on his old clunker of a steel bike with his daughter sitting in a basket on the front handlebars and he was talking casually to his daughter while effortlessly passing all the wannabes.

As I said, I don't have a problem with the $10K bikes per se, but I do wish that cycling was not so marketing-driven and that cycling in North America and Australia could return to a more grass roots level with government and bike company (especially with the profits they are making from ultra-marked up cheaply produced bikes) support of improved bicycling infrastructure.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

What have we got in return?

Prices aside, I doubt Campy would have developed Ergopower in the same time frame had Shimano not come up with STI.

There were complaints about the uselessness of STI (or 9 speed cassettes, etc.) back then, too. In the early 20th century it was thought no one would ever need more than 3 speeds on a bicycle.

The anger about Freds on expensive bikes is kinda cute, though. Either your sh!t list is as thick as a phone book, or you have things so good that dentists on carbon bikes are your biggest worry.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yes, bike prices can get way over the top but does everyone really think its too much?

Is it too much for an employee in the process of getting a bike to you (whether it be making, re-selling, delivering, assembling) to ask for some money, a 401K, health insurance, year end bonus, paid time off, sick leave? Then the taxes involved along the way from origin to getting to the end customer.

Stupid expensive bikes play an important Marketing role. Keeping a retailer in business with employees making a living wage is not one of them. There are very few enlightened consumers willing to pay a premium explicitly for the purpose of supporting living wages. So, Trek and Specialized play along. If they don't someone else surely would. Meanwhile most consumers just pretend there is no impact to their purchasing decisions.

Moose, the business reality is an independent bike shop cannot support a living wage in the U.S. So, what little we understand about working conditions in China, the U.S. on average is hardly better. Are living conditions better? For sure, yes. But working in a shop is living in poverty. Maybe happy poverty, but no material wealth.

Elapid, long ago when I was in the bike business both Trek and Specialized backed U.S. Federal legislation for multi-use roads. They were big trails access supporters too. The multi-use roads efforts have paid off handsomely and bike riders are viewed much more positively than when I was doing it. I don't know if they are so politically active now, but they'd be fools to quit.

I'm with BroDeal on Shimano's pricing. I'm old enough to remember when Shimano was cheap compared to Campy. They've built a brand in a business climate that protects their key strategy, index shifting and more cogs. Intellectual property regulations protect their business essentially closing the door to another low-cost innovator appearing the way Shimano did.

Finally, the money you pay to Specialized and Trek are captured by the owners of those companies. The least amount as possible is returned to the business, which includes paying for a cycling team. AFAICT, they do not practice social capitalism or any other organizational variation (ex. a co-op) at Trek or Specialized. It is dictatorial capitalism.

 

[blutto]

I don't follow your reasoning here. As per the blog post, bikes at the top end of a range used to cost significantly less, during an era when they were overwhelmingly produced in the West. And now today we have carbon bikes being produced in large numbers in the far East and the cost has skyrocketed.

Why are custom options in the same neighborhood price wise as a S-Works Venge? The smaller frame builders aren't benefiting from economies the way Specialized can, yet remarkably you can get a Calfee Tetra w/ custom geometry for less. Cyfac & Time, who are still building frames in France, produce bikes in this same price range as the S-Works Venge.

If you recall the article about Campagnolo, you will remember they are paying union wage for their metal workers yet amazingly produce components that are competitive and priced reasonably similar to their competition.

So please, clarify what your vague post is supposed to mean; I'm honestly confused. There are many examples in the bike industry where you are paying for first world labor and yet shockingly these products are on par in terms of price with the big brands and their cheap labor force.

...very nice post which drives to the core of the weird way in which prices have changed over the last couple of decades...congrats...

...so the bottom line is we are buying stuff made by labour working at slave wages and we can't even fit the stuff properly because the sizing options are so limited...which dovetails into another peeve I have with modern bike stuff, where are the stems that used to come in 0.5 cm increments ( their availability now would go a long way to help deal with the limited sizing option offered by most big name frame manufacturers )...thank gawd Colnago has kept the faith...

Cheers

blutto

 

[richwagmn]

The truth must cut cut deep. Sorry, chubby, if you cannot see the utter ridiculousness of a recreational porker regurgitating marketing BS that exaggerates nil to neglible performance increases of bikes that won't ever be used for anything other than a charity ride then I cannot help you.

Wow, very classy.

 

[BroDeal]

Wow, very classy.

I do my best. It's just that my best is better and a lot more truthy than yours. Don't think I didn't read what you wrote before you edited your post above.