Articles about $10,000 bikes - What's the point?

[biker77]

Not really. It just depends on the scale of production. If a brand wants to use many models as their niche, lugged is the way to go. If the business strategy is volume-based, then molds are the way to go.

Stand corrected - lugs allow more sizes which is better.

Interesting that the non-US perspective on colnago is a bit different. I have never ridden one so can`t comment.

 

[badboygolf16v]

If you read the Felt I can tell you it stacked up exceptionally well, they thought it was outstanding for a super light bike (the build with Di2 was 6.0x KG ex-pedals/cages) in feel and how planted it was in cornering. Subjectively, the bike was riden by 1 for extended test (ie months) and 5 more for a quick spin. Universally it was praised.

OK I would have the Time without a thought (it also did well, though 1.5kg heavier looks bad) but maybe we dismiss some of these "johnny come lately" volume based manufactures a little too fast...

Thanks for the info Notso. That's no surprise to me whatsoever.

Cos it's just a bike frame..

Why anyone would think Felt (or any other manufacturer) who invested a little time and money couldn't make a decent frame is beyond me. In engineering terms it's not complicated. There is no mystique.

Buy a Colnago if you like, but you're paying for the label. No probs with that.

(Don't get started on Independent Fabrications bull**** prices for a steel frame...)

 

[LugHugger]

Thanks for the info Notso. That's no surprise to me whatsoever.

Cos it's just a bike frame..

Why anyone would think Felt (or any other manufacturer) who invested a little time and money couldn't make a decent frame is beyond me. In engineering terms it's not complicated. There is no mystique.

Buy a Colnago if you like, but you're paying for the label. No probs with that.

(Don't get started on Independent Fabrications bull**** prices for a steel frame...)

Nice bikes, those Crown Jewels with the steel forks. Pegoretti's don't come cheap you know.

 

[Parera]

Buy a Colnago if you like, but you're paying for the label. No probs with that.

That's a bit unfair. Ever drive a Mercedes? There's certainly a lot more to it than just a label. Colnago is similar; 22 sizes, paint options, an exemplary piece of engineering. As far as what type of price tag you can attach to a luxury brand, the classic "whatever people are willin to pay." thus, a C59 is pricey, because enough people are willing to pay at that price level.

I said it another thread, but will restate: cyclists are lucky in that we have so many options for rides. Giant makes awesome bikes, despite what certain snobs will tell you. Specialized makes decent frames. Trek, cannondale, Scott, etc

The problem I (and others) have with the overpricing halo bikes from these larger volume brands is that it's simply encouraging the problems facing the industry: that is, more worried abiur brand image/marketing than what's best for the rider. Offering 6 sizes and charging $9500 for a ****ing Cervelo is NOT HELPING. It's just marketing crap to say "see how light we can make a bike? Aren't we just awesome?" at least colnago earned their reputation on th road over the course of decades.

So I don't know where I'm heading with this. I guess there's three ways of looking at it: these halo bikes really are pushing tech (an untenable position IMO); indifference, whatever makes someone happy; then those like me who think they are ethically wrong for prioritizing advertising nonsense over the interests of their customers.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Thanks for the info Notso. That's no surprise to me whatsoever.

Cos it's just a bike frame..

Why anyone would think Felt (or any other manufacturer) who invested a little time and money couldn't make a decent frame is beyond me. In engineering terms it's not complicated. There is no mystique.

Buy a Colnago if you like, but you're paying for the label. No probs with that.

(Don't get started on Independent Fabrications bull**** prices for a steel frame...)

That is the uninformed person's view of things. It's like saying, who cares about Picasso, anybody can draw on a napkin.

Ever ride a Time? Every seen their manufacturing process? It's worlds apart from what you'd see in your average Chinese factory.

Unfortunately, people now think that because most companies outsource their dime-a-dozen monocoque frames to China, all frames are the same. They're not. Some companies like Time, Cyfac, and others still care about what they make and the people they hire to do it.

 

[fabramowski]

That is the uninformed person's view of things. It's like saying, who cares about Picasso, anybody can draw on a napkin.

Ever ride a Time? Every seen their manufacturing process? It's worlds apart from what you'd see in your average Chinese factory.

Unfortunately, people now think that because most companies outsource their dime-a-dozen monocoque frames to China, all frames are the same. They're not. Some companies like Time, Cyfac, and others still care about what they make and the people they hire to do it.

Because some of us just like to ride/train on any bike, as long as it works. If you have the money to blow then do what you want with it halo or not. I think anything over 2 grand is throwing money down the drain if your not a racer or are over 30. It's like should I buy a Bentley or a Honda to drive to work 30 miles one way.....

 

[pedaling squares]

I think anything over 2 grand is throwing money down the drain if your not a racer or are over 30. It's like should I buy a Bentley or a Honda to drive to work 30 miles one way.....

But life is about more than being practical. We're supposed to enjoy the ride.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Why anyone would think Felt (or any other manufacturer) who invested a little time and money couldn't make a decent frame is beyond me. In engineering terms it's not complicated. There is no mystique.

Buy a Colnago if you like, but you're paying for the label. No probs with that.

It's not about whether they make decent frames or not, it's about these halo bikes. They all make great riding frames, but when you take what is already a flagship road race machine, where all the R&D dollars are spent, pinch it slightly more aero, shave a few grams, maybe stick an fabled auto sticker on it and all of a sudden you just added $7k of just about nothing to what was already a $7k bike. The article says it's all about "trickle down technology", bullsheet, it's all about catering to the rich. If they didn't do this it would be a terrible business move, and they're all guilty of it in one way or another including my favorite, Colnago.

 

[laziali]

It's not about whether they make decent frames or not, it's about these halo bikes. They all make great riding frames, but when you take what is already a flagship road race machine, where all the R&D dollars are spent, pinch it slightly more aero, shave a few grams, maybe stick an fabled auto sticker on it and all of a sudden you just added $7k of just about nothing to what was already a $7k bike. The article says it's all about "trickle down technology", bullsheet, it's all about catering to the rich. If they didn't do this it would be a terrible business move, and they're all guilty of it in one way or another including my favorite, Colnago.

Yeah, but to be fair to Ernesto, the CF7/CF8 is just a different paintjob for your extra $7k - ie it's not pretending to be anything other than a collector's item (and that's why I think the C59 is the true Halo model). Compare that with the vomit-inducing Venge, which pretends to be a "massive" technological advancement, but is in fact just a pos wannabe.

I mean, really, C59s will still be ridden in 10+ years just as C40s and C50s are now - can anyone seriously imagine seeing a Venge on the road beyond 2014

 

[Notso Swift]

That's a bit unfair. Ever drive a Mercedes? There's certainly a lot more to it than just a label. Colnago is similar; 22 sizes, paint options, an exemplary piece of engineering. As far as what type of price tag you can attach to a luxury brand, the classic "whatever people are willin to pay." thus, a C59 is pricey, because enough people are willing to pay at that price level.

I said it another thread, but will restate: cyclists are lucky in that we have so many options for rides. Giant makes awesome bikes, despite what certain snobs will tell you. Specialized makes decent frames. Trek, cannondale, Scott, etc

The problem I (and others) have with the overpricing halo bikes from these larger volume brands is that it's simply encouraging the problems facing the industry: that is, more worried abiur brand image/marketing than what's best for the rider. Offering 6 sizes and charging $9500 for a ****ing Cervelo is NOT HELPING. It's just marketing crap to say "see how light we can make a bike? Aren't we just awesome?" at least colnago earned their reputation on th road over the course of decades.

So I don't know where I'm heading with this. I guess there's three ways of looking at it: these halo bikes really are pushing tech (an untenable position IMO); indifference, whatever makes someone happy; then those like me who think they are ethically wrong for prioritizing advertising nonsense over the interests of their customers.

There is a lot of sense in this post
Colnago costly, yes, compared to some things they are, but if you shop you can get a Master Xlight for $2600, cheaper than HEAPS of mass produced frames, BUT you need to wait 4 months - people don't and buy brand X
$9k Cervelo frame , a top line custom Cyfac is about $6k, for that you can go to the factory and have a coffee with the bloke who built it to your EXACT needs with a finish that literally blows people away

I understand the world is built around diminishing returns, but there is a point of Negative returns!

BTW my wife bought a new Benz 3 years ago and I took the **** out of her, guess what, 18 months later it was my turn to change cars... guess what I bought, E class, I seriously doubt I would change even though I need to keep it twice as long as I would keep something else

 

[Notso Swift]

That is the uninformed person's view of things. It's like saying, who cares about Picasso, anybody can draw on a napkin.

Ever ride a Time? Every seen their manufacturing process? It's worlds apart from what you'd see in your average Chinese factory.

Unfortunately, people now think that because most companies outsource their dime-a-dozen monocoque frames to China, all frames are the same. They're not. Some companies like Time, Cyfac, and others still care about what they make and the people they hire to do it.

+lots
Try looking at Time on youtube
They weave the carbon specific to the need, don't get me wrong, the men in white coats at Giant have a LOT of skill, but the skill is about the "Average" it is not about the individual

Worse, some of these companies do not have the skill of the Giant Techs, yet they "niche" market a lot higher

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Seems like the topic is going off the rails: "$10,000 bikes are silly, but my Colnago is worth every penny".

Speaking as a Colnago owner, they're fine bikes, but they're not made of unicorn horns and they don't make me fart rainbows. I've seen many Time failures too. I like the fact that some models are produced in places that pay a living wage (and I don't mind paying a little more to support that), but that doesn't imbue the frame with "soul".

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Seems like the topic is going off the rails: "$10,000 bikes are silly, but my Colnago is worth every penny".

Speaking as a Colnago owner, they're fine bikes, but they're not made of unicorn horns and they don't make me fart rainbows. I've seen many Time failures too. I like the fact that some models are produced in places that pay a living wage (and I don't mind paying a little more to support that), but that doesn't imbue the frame with "soul".

No, that is not the gist of the discussion. The gist is that certain brands that offer "halo" bikes, such as Giant, Cannondale, Specialized, Pinarello etc. offer bikes whose prices are entirely disproportionate to their quality. The price charged is used to compensate for advertising and sponsorship, not used to justify manufacturing costs.

Other brands, such as Time, Colnago, offer higher quality and very often lower prices. What makes such bikes special is not just that they pay their employees a living wage and do not outsource manufacturing to the Far East, but rather that their manufacturing process is capable of turning out bikes that are infinitely more than just the carbon fiber equivalent of burning DVDs.

 

[Benotti69]

No, that is not the gist of the discussion. The gist is that certain brands that offer "halo" bikes, such as Giant, Cannondale, Specialized, Pinarello etc. offer bikes whose prices are entirely disproportionate to their quality. The price charged is used to compensate for advertising and sponsorship, not used to justify manufacturing costs.

Other brands, such as Time, Colnago, offer higher quality and very often lower prices. What makes such bikes special is not just that they pay their employees a living wage and do not outsource manufacturing to the Far East, but rather that their manufacturing process is capable of turning out bikes that are infinitely more than just the carbon fiber equivalent of burning DVDs.

"A carbon fiber equivalent of burning a DVD". Bingo perfect analogy.

Now i would like to see that on the top/down tube of a Felt F1, S-Works, Dogma...calling a spade a spade

 

[oldborn]

Seems like the topic is going off the rails: "$10,000 bikes are silly, but my Colnago is worth every penny".

Speaking as a Colnago owner, they're fine bikes, but they're not made of unicorn horns and they don't make me fart rainbows. I've seen many Time failures too. I like the fact that some models are produced in places that pay a living wage (and I don't mind paying a little more to support that), but that doesn't imbue the frame with "soul".

That is also I say. Have nothing against Colnago (they are awesome and probably my next ride) but they are not super awesome and unique.

Paride Grillo's Colnago which broke during the Tour of Belgium in 2006. I do not how it happens but it is nasty picture

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2009/03/broken-colnago.html

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

No, that is not the gist of the discussion. The gist is that certain brands that offer "halo" bikes, such as Giant, Cannondale, Specialized, Pinarello etc. offer bikes whose prices are entirely disproportionate to their quality.

To you. Riding my Scattante, I might think you're a dupe for paying a lot of money for a Colnago that doesn't offer any obvious performance benefits.

If the prime definition of "quality" is the amount of human attention a frame gets in its manufacturing, Cervelo and many of the other bike makers would say their halo bikes are as hand-made as anything coming out of Geppetto's cottage workshop (and are lighter, more aero and/or stiffer than more "tasteful" bikes).

I'm just playing devil's advocate for a moment, because I mostly agree that riding a halo bike is different than riding a production Colnago or some other well-made bike, because the halo bike's raison d'être is its exclusivity and obvious expense.

 

[LugHugger]

To you. Riding my Scattante, I might think you're a dupe for paying a lot of money for a Colnago that doesn't offer any obvious performance benefits.

If the prime definition of "quality" is the amount of human attention a frame gets in its manufacturing, Cervelo and many of the other bike makers would say their halo bikes are as hand-made as anything coming out of Geppetto's cottage workshop (and are lighter, more aero and/or stiffer than more "tasteful" bikes).

I'm just playing devil's advocate for a moment, because I mostly agree that riding a halo bike is different than riding a production Colnago or some other well-made bike, because the halo bike's raison d'être is its exclusivity and obvious expense.

Please. Cervelo are to frames as SRAM is to group sets.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Please. Cervelo are to frames as SRAM is to group sets.

I don't know where the idea comes from that roadies are snobs.

 

[LugHugger]

I don't know where the idea comes from that roadies are snobs.

Or alternatively a little less susceptible to marketing BS?

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Or alternatively a little less susceptible to marketing BS?

Explain that to the Scattante owner.

 

[usedtobefast]

Explain that to the Scattante owner.

i own one myself. it is a Cervelo copy basically. nice bike with a full ultegra group cost me 1200 usd a few years ago. well worth it. not my only bike or
most expensive, but works well. not an IPOD but a Coby, to bring a different
technology in the view.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

To you. Riding my Scattante, I might think you're a dupe for paying a lot of money for a Colnago that doesn't offer any obvious performance benefits.

I see no problem with owning a Scattante or whatever. A lot of these frames are a great value. But saying Colnago doesn't offer any performance benefits or whatever without having any experience with those frames just screams sour grapes.

Heck, beans and rice fill up your stomach just as well as kobe steak. It doesn't mean people should stop eating steak or that steak isn't better.

It makes no difference to me if you think I'm a dupe for buying a Time. In the end, I know what I'm riding. Doesn't make me a better person or a smarter person for buying a Time. I'm not knocking you for buying a Scattante. Buy whatever makes you happy. I'm just pointing out that the justification for purchasing certain mass-produced frames fails on value grounds.

A 5000 Colnago frame is >>>>>>>>>> than a 5000 Cannondale frame in terms of value/dollar.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Explain that to the Scattante owner.

Not being able to purchase something is not synonymous with not falling for marketing BS.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

A 5000 Colnago frame is >>>>>>>>>> than a 5000 Cannondale frame in terms of value/dollar.

How exactly? Does it weight less? Is it more aero? Does it have a longer warranty?

I own a Colnago but it was not a rational purchase. I bought it because it's a Colnago and I like the way it looks, but I don't kid myself that it makes me faster than any comparably priced bike, and I don't think it's better in any objective sense than a Cannondale.

Spoiler: the character's love of Italians in "Breaking Away" is not a celebration, it's a parody, and it doesn't turn out well in the end. Also, I have some news about Santa Claus ...

 

[Benotti69]

How exactly? Does it weight less? Is it more aero? Does it have a longer warranty?

I own a Colnago but it was not a rational purchase. I bought it because it's a Colnago and I like the way it looks, but I don't kid myself that it makes me faster than any comparably priced bike, and I don't think it's better in any objective sense than a Cannondale.

Spoiler: the character's love of Italians in "Breaking Away" is not a celebration, it's a parody, and it doesn't turn out well in the end. Also, I have some news about Santa Claus ...

anyone who thinks that one road bike is faster than another lives in cloud cuckoo land.

the prices of so called 'halo' bikes suggests the manufacturers of these bikes think they do what the marketing BS is spouting, faster, stronger, etcc. but they are out of a mould and only come in limited sizes whereas those bikes like Time, Colnago and Cyfac can be bought made to measure or in many more sizes allowing the purchaser to get something that fits and not something that is very expenses that has to be 'forced' to fit.