Articles about $10,000 bikes - What's the point?

[Gaear Grimsrud]

the prices of so called 'halo' bikes suggests the manufacturers of these bikes think they do what the marketing BS is spouting, faster, stronger, etcc.

That's what a halo bike is: a rolling ad for how much money you've spent.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Riding my Scattante, I might think you're a dupe for paying a lot of money for a Colnago that doesn't offer any obvious performance benefits.

............

I own a Colnago but it was not a rational purchase.

Uh, ok. Now tell us about the Cannondale you own too, since you're opining about them too.

Weight and aerodynamics are not the only benchmarks for bikes. Ride quality means far more to me. The ride quality of a Time is what makes it the bike it is. It's not lighter. It's maybe not more aero. But the ride quality is superb.

 

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Uh, ok. Now tell us about the Cannondale you own too, since you're opining about them too.

Uh, ok. As an owner, how would you rate the ride quality of halo bikes?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Uh, ok. As an owner, how would you rate the ride quality of halo bikes?

I would rate the overall ride quality of the Time as the best I have experienced. I have had the opportunity to ride and own several brands. I've sold all of them except for my two Times. I do admit that the Cannondale Supersix was a fantastic bike and the fact that Cannondale did away with it and moved their production to China has embittered me towards them.

I find nothing appealing about these "halo" bikes and I agree that these are effectively identifying markers for those with insufficient sense to know better. I have not ridden the new Evo. I wouldn't disgrace my chamois by placing it on a Specialized.

 

[laziali]

How exactly? Does it weight less? Is it more aero? Does it have a longer warranty?

I own a Colnago but it was not a rational purchase. I bought it because it's a Colnago and I like the way it looks, but I don't kid myself that it makes me faster than any comparably priced bike, and I don't think it's better in any objective sense than a Cannondale.

Spoiler: the character's love of Italians in "Breaking Away" is not a celebration, it's a parody, and it doesn't turn out well in the end. Also, I have some news about Santa Claus ...

Which Colnago frame are you riding? I have owned and been loaned a heap of them over the years and with the exception of a hideously flexy Carbitubo they have all had a sublime ride quality that is substantially better in my opinion that the two carbon Cannodales I have tried - both of which were very light but very harsh. And I once tried a carbon Cervelo (cant remember the model, but top of the line about 3 years ago) and it was just horribly bone-jarringly stiff.

So yes, as a rider who has been on various Colnagos, steel and carbon, since the 80s I can definitely tell the difference.

 

[Master50]

I own a Colnago but it was not a rational purchase. I bought it because it's a Colnago and I like the way it looks, but I don't kid myself that it makes me faster than any comparably priced bike, and I don't think it's better in any objective sense than a Cannondale.
.

I have owned 3 and I still have 2 of them. They were rational purchases. A bike is a work of art in design and engineering. Some bikes are improved by iterative processes and some come from intuition but the ride is an elegant solution. The realization of that is entirely rational. So it choosing it. You like Italian bicycles so why not own one. Colnago has an impeccable reputation as a frame builder as well as an artisan's skill.

He builds bike from experience so how else can you judge the choice of his creation for your bike? Colnago is a rational choice. You get a great and proven design, an experienced ride and a beautiful paint job to show off ;-) Seems pretty rational to me.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Since this is turning into a debate about Colnago against the rest, lets pit the C59 against the bikes listed in the article just to see what you're getting for your money.

The benchmark: Colnago C59, $10k, 22 sizes, full custom available, virtually unlimited paint options.

Cannondale Super Six Evo Ultimate, $12K, 8 sizes, no custom, one color.
Felt DA1, $13K, 6 sizes, no custom, one color.
Giant TCR Advanced SL, $10K, 6 sizes, no custom, one color.
Trek Madone 6.9 SSL Leopard/Schleck Edition, $11K, 7 sizes, no custom, 2 colors, the other being the Spartacus.
Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL4, $11K, 6 sizes, no custom, 4 colors.
Cervélo R5ca: US$9,800 (frameset only), 6 sizes, no custom, one color.

Of course you get the bike that feels best underneath you, but as far as options go there's a clear winner. No wonder Colnago wasn't mentioned in this article, Ernesto is in a league of his own, frankly makes the bikes in the article look like a waste of time.

 

[James Huang]

Just for clarification, the purpose of that article was to look at the super expensive bikes that *mainstream* companies are now putting out. The value of bikes from smaller volume builders isn't quite as contentious. If I wanted to look at smaller or more boutique companies then yes, of course I could have included far more builders (and even gone up much further in cost).

Either way, I still stand by what I wrote. I'm not telling everyone that they need one of those things, that those bikes represent good value, or that one is better than another. Just putting it all out there and I've clearly hit a nerve.

 

[hfer07]

No, that is not the gist of the discussion. The gist is that certain brands that offer "halo" bikes, such as Giant, Cannondale, Specialized, Pinarello etc. offer bikes whose prices are entirely disproportionate to their quality. The price charged is used to compensate for advertising and sponsorship, not used to justify manufacturing costs.

I'd take Pinarello out of your list.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Just for clarification, the purpose of that article was to look at the super expensive bikes that *mainstream* companies are now putting out. The value of bikes from smaller volume builders isn't quite as contentious. If I wanted to look at smaller or more boutique companies then yes, of course I could have included far more builders (and even gone up much further in cost).

Either way, I still stand by what I wrote. I'm not telling everyone that they need one of those things, that those bikes represent good value, or that one is better than another. Just putting it all out there and I've clearly hit a nerve.

Thanks for the reply James, I think this is where the disconnect is, the fact that the article is about the "mainstream" Co's, and your dead on comment about how the "peanut gallery" is going to throw up a bunch of question marks and make comments, I'm guilty of it just as many who have posted here. The comparison to Colnago is unavoidable due to the fact that they are basically the originators of the "halo" bike in the C40 which was released way back in '94. You know that already, some don't, or fail to acknowledge Ernesto's contributions to road race frame design in every material for the last almost 60 years.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

....also, just for clarification, I've been in the industry for 20 years and have access to some of what James does, but don't get to keep certain demos like some journalists we know.

I've had the pleasure/displeasure to ride 4 of the 6 or so bikes listed in the article. So staying on topic, I'll give you my best and worst from the bunch.

Best; Giant TCR Advanced is the best handling, especially at speed, but fugly as sin, and their pedigree is in the ultra cheap stuff.
Worst; Specialized S-Works Tarmac is by far the most boring, un-race feeling bike out of all of them for me, another ugly one, but their pedigree is storied, and have supported racers from Jr. level to pro for a long, long time. The Trek Madone only beat out the S-Works because it does ride nicer than any Specailzed, but never in a million years would I ever buy one, it's a guilt by association thing (LA).

 

[ElChingon]

Just for clarification, the purpose of that article was to look at the super expensive bikes that *mainstream* companies are now putting out. The value of bikes from smaller volume builders isn't quite as contentious. If I wanted to look at smaller or more boutique companies then yes, of course I could have included far more builders (and even gone up much further in cost).

Either way, I still stand by what I wrote. I'm not telling everyone that they need one of those things, that those bikes represent good value, or that one is better than another. Just putting it all out there and I've clearly hit a nerve.

Some of us could build that exact bike (yes those exact components and frame) for way less, but those of us who can actually own a wrench and don't take retail for an answer.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I'd take Pinarello out of your list.

I would tend to agree that Pinarello is above those others in terms of quality, but it is above them in terms of price as well, making the ratio very similar.

I really liked my Prince, it was a fantastic bike. I would have never bought it had the shop not had the 40% off deal on certain colors.

I've been to the Pinarello factory. It's not a "factory" at all. There are scores and scores of blank frames from Taiwan just waiting to be painted. They don't make anything there, other than money. It is nowhere near a great deal for the quality you get. Some of the new "paint" isn't even paint. It's just sparkly decals under the clear coat.

 

[oldborn]

So if I understand it correct, mainstream bikes are something like BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus.
Artisan bikes like Colnago are something like Porsche or Ferrari and those super artisan bikes are Bugatti or Lamborghini.
So how is possible that BMW 5 are costing more than Ferrari?
Dudes something is wrong IMHO in your calculations or I am missing something

 

[bc_hills]

So if I understand it correct, mainstream bikes are something like BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus.
Artisan bikes like Colnago are something like Porsche or Ferrari and those super artisan bikes are Bugatti or Lamborghini.
So how is possible that BMW 5 are costing more than Ferrari?
Dudes something is wrong IMHO in your calculations or I am missing something

You've got to drop into the rabbit hole BEFORE you make your calculations!

 

[oldborn]

You've got to drop into the rabbit hole BEFORE you make your calculations!

Nah, bp_hills.
Just wondering what did you just said? Are you somehow insulting me?

 

[Benotti69]

So if I understand it correct, mainstream bikes are something like BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus.
Artisan bikes like Colnago are something like Porsche or Ferrari and those super artisan bikes are Bugatti or Lamborghini.
So how is possible that BMW 5 are costing more than Ferrari?
Dudes something is wrong IMHO in your calculations or I am missing something

You could use your analogy but the add the fact that punters are being charged lamboughini prices for their top level BMW, Merc or Lexus.

 

[James Huang]

Not to direct people away from this particular forum but in case you're interested, there's also some good discussion on this topic on Velocipede Salon (http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fussed-over-artisan-made-steel-frame-atmo-24512.html), including some good commentary from Richard Sachs.

 

[oldborn]

You could use your analogy but the add the fact that punters are being charged lamboughini prices for their top level BMW, Merc or Lexus.

Agree with you and just asking why?

 

[Parera]

Best; Giant TCR Advanced is the best handling, especially at speed, but fugly as sin

The TCR composite is a great frame (low end). It's heavier but has external cable routing, standard steerer clamp and adjustable seatpost. However, with light wheels you can build a sub 16 pound bike and as you say, they handle great plus feel very efficient when pedaling. Still ugly though, but highly considering one just because giant has the best warranty in the industry.

 

[42x16ss]

Take the standard Advanced frame (not the Advanced SL) over the composite. I've tried both and there is a pretty big difference in stiffness for only slightly more $.

Having said that, if it isn't going to be worked hard it is pretty good for an entry level carbon frame.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Take the standard Advanced frame (not the Advanced SL) over the composite. I've tried both and there is a pretty big difference in stiffness for only slightly more $.

Having said that, if it isn't going to be worked hard it is pretty good for an entry level carbon frame.

I owned the TCR Advanced magenta back in the day. Great frame. People kept saying it's a "noodle". I thought it was plenty stiff. I remember when that was their top of the line offering with Mavic Ksyrium ES. Scored it from a friend for dealer cost. Nowadays that will get you a pair of Enve wheels and some tires.

I have to say one of the frames I liked the most was the old Cannondale System Six. Pity they did away with it.

 

[42x16ss]

I owned the TCR Advanced magenta back in the day. Great frame. People kept saying it's a "noodle". I thought it was plenty stiff. I remember when that was their top of the line offering with Mavic Ksyrium ES. Scored it from a friend for dealer cost. Nowadays that will get you a pair of Enve wheels and some tires.

I have to say one of the frames I liked the most was the old Cannondale System Six. Pity they did away with it.

My previous race frame was a System Six, I've still got it sitting in the garage! When it first came out it was one helluva stiff frame and rode pretty well too.

Where it really shone though was downhill, I got over 100Kph quite a few times on that thing and still felt quite stable. The huge oversized front end was brilliant. They were a performance bargain when the Super Six first came out and it was no longer the top model.

 

[BroDeal]

Not to direct people away from this particular forum but in case you're interested, there's also some good discussion on this topic on Velocipede Salon (http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fussed-over-artisan-made-steel-frame-atmo-24512.html), including some good commentary from Richard Sachs.

Don't forget about this thread either. Velocipede Salon weighs in on how the engineers at Cervelo are a bunch of complete muppets who have no understanding of bike geometry.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/gloating-24671.html

Keep in mind that instead of relying on regular production workers who know what they are doing, it is these same engineers who will be building your halo Cervelo., presumably laying up the carbon fiber in between playing games of Doodle Jump.

 

[Maxiton]

Not to direct people away from this particular forum but in case you're interested, there's also some good discussion on this topic on Velocipede Salon (http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fussed-over-artisan-made-steel-frame-atmo-24512.html), including some good commentary from Richard Sachs.

Thanks for that link, James. That's great.