ASO demands apology from Bakelants after sexist remarks

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Thank you. I'm a newbie on this subject, so bear with me, you are probably in a better position than I am to judge the quality of the quoted statements below. I threw them in because I felt that some perspective is needed, as the cited studies may not show the full picture.

Here's a comment on that study by a Donald J. Harris, PhD, Research Director

Lo Sasso and colleagues are skeptical that broad pay differences have emerged in recent years and conjecture about the role of unmeasured (or mismeasured) variables in their OLS regression analysis. In this regard, the authors mention "on-call" requirements among other work conditions affecting physicians' quality of life. It is possible that some "cultural" variables may be missing as well -- e.g., prestige of the training institutions (medical school, residency and fellowship programs) or prestige of the employing institution.

It also may be worth considering that the missing variables play a much larger role in the higher-stakes subspecialty fields. One might get a handle on this by examining, by way of separate regressions, the magnitude of the salary disparities in the four specialites with the largest Ns: pediatrics (general), internal medicine (general), family practice, emergency medicine. If each of these analyses revealed only small differences in salaries by gender, and with little change over time, it would suggest that "micro" studies of the subspecialities may be the next fruitful line of physician compensation research.

Ok, but what are you asking about this? That's the article response with some supposition but nothing that actually refutes the work. That article was simply pointing out that the things you asked for are usually controlled for, irrelevant (in the case of this study, not so in others) or part of the problem in the first place.

Here is the paper where the 30% gap comes from (I think):

http://www.econ.jku.at/papers/2003/wp0311.pdf

Yes, it's a single number that can't hope to explain the differences in all careers and all effects. It is the top of a bell curve in effect. From what I can find the number is generally accepted.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Bakelants is an idiot, his jokes were sexist and he should apologise. The ASO have some cheek going after him for it though, given that their sexism in using podium girls in the first place is a much bigger issue than a cyclist telling a misjudged joke portraying himself as a compulsively masturbating sleaze.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

In general boys and girls in the 15-25 year old range are very sexual in their conversation. Much of what they talk about could be viewed negatively by those who forgot about being that age. Right or wrong its a fact or life. I've been coaching youth sports since 1990 and this aspect of their behavior is relatively static.

That being said, JB is 30 ish so he should be past this developmental stage. I get the feeling that the podium hostesses have turned JB down and he was getting back at them.

Surely that's communication within their peer-group though?

Yes, but they aren't overly concerned if they are overheard. I don't think that most would talk about it in an interview if that is what you are getting at.

Yeah, I was getting at the interview thing.

[quote="King Boonen":3ugwy0ie][quote="jmdirt":3ugwy0ie]In general boys and girls in the 15-25 year old range are very sexual in their conversation. Much of what they talk about could be viewed negatively by those who forgot about being that age. Right or wrong its a fact or life. I've been coaching youth sports since 1990 and this aspect of their behavior is relatively static.

That being said, JB is 30 ish so he should be past this developmental stage. I get the feeling that the podium hostesses have turned JB down and he was getting back at them.

Surely that's communication within their peer-group though?[/quote]

Which is just as bad. Something can either be said in an interview and around a group of friends or it can't. Either what he said was wrong or it wasn't.[/quote]

Of course I agree with you, it's not acceptable anywhere, but kids being idiots is a different set of circumstances and in this case we're talking about general language rather than specifics.

 

[MightyWheelSucker]

Looking forward to see Bakelants interview live and his remarks about porn during family Sunday dinner. Unless damned commentators will mess up with translation.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Well damn, I guess every comedian in the UK that I've ever heard of is a terrible terrible person.

I will immediately ask for them to be removed from any media outlet.

Glad we're fixing problems together!

Sexism isn't funny, just like racism isn't funny. Who are you going to see? Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning?

nothing is funny these days, everything is sexist and racist.

Tired of that.

I love comedians who actually make fun of racist stereotypes, if they do it for all (white, black, asian, whatever) and sexist prejudices (men AND women).

The world would be a much better place if people would not get offended by everything. We are actually regressing in that department.

There was never some better era where there was an equality of mockery and an absence of offence. There was just a time when dominant groups could get away with mocking the marginalised without being criticised for their bigotry.

I present to you: Redd Foxx, Richard Prior, Eddy Murphy, Chis Rock, Lucile Ball, Betty White, Joan Rivers, and Wanda Sykes (double whammy), just to name a few marginalized who mocked the marginalized (maybe to get money from the dominant group).

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

He goes beyond sexist, puerile humour because his comments are effectively targetted at a few specific individuals.

There is a long, thankfully now largely passed, tradition of joking about Essex Girls as unintelligent and promiscuous. Some took offence, and it is undoubtedly a crass generalisation, but within the culture of lowbrow humour, it is not seen as objectionable.

I live in Essex, and I could, and in some of my less guarded moments may well have, made Essex Girl jokes. But if I were to make my neighbour's teenage daughters (both charming, bright and responsible young ladies) the specific butt of such jokes, it would be a very different thing, no matter how evident it is that they fall within the strict definition of Essex girls.

That is essentially what Bakelants has done. He has not merely said "French girls are easy" or "models are easy", he has said "these six (is it six of them?)women, employed on this forthcoming race, are easy." As such, it is almost slander, it is personal.

To use Redhead's analogy, it is not saying that McDonalds' employees need to get more education, but that the counter staff on the mid-afternoon shift last Tuesday at the branch near my local railway station need to get an education. That requires knowledge of the individuals, and a willingness to be able to justify the comments.

 

[Brullnux]

It hasn't really passed, the monstrosity that was TOWIE made sure the joke and the stereotype lived on.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Getting very off topic now with politics/economics ...

It's a guy making a poor taste joke, he doesn't need to be thrown off a team for trying to make a few people laugh.

No one has said that he needs to be thrown off of his team. Where you getting that from?

 

[deValtos]

Boonens first comment on the first page which kicked everything off.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Bakelants is an idiot, his jokes were sexist and he should apologise. The ASO have some cheek going after him for it though, given that their sexism in using podium girls in the first place is a much bigger issue than a cyclist telling a misjudged joke portraying himself as a compulsively masturbating sleaze.

The podium girls have made a choice to be podium girls. They didn't make a choice to be the punchline of anyone's stupid jokes.

Getting very off topic now with politics/economics ...

It's a guy making a poor taste joke, he doesn't need to be thrown off a team for trying to make a few people laugh.

No one has said that he needs to be thrown off of his team. Where you getting that from?

At least one other poster at the beginning of this thread.

 

[el chava]

Pro sports hardly is the domain to discuss ethical behaviour.

 

[Echoes]

Indeed, (loose) quote from the movie Les Tontons Flingueurs: "Morons would dare to do anything. That's how you can tell they're morons."

You know your classics Echoes .

Pretty sure there are also "salacious" quotes in that film too, though I may get confused with "Greed in the Sun".

But yes, the Michel Audiard penned films taught me everything about society. What I've remembered from those films is the frankness that characterised the main characters and how hypocrisy and cowardice are systematically ridiculed. That's why I would now tend to let people like Bakelants free. Of course he is no Audiard, not quite as subtle, does not have his stylistic skills to say the least but he's always spoken his mind. I often laughed at his audacity.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Re: Re:

The podium girls have made a choice to be podium girls. They didn't make a choice to be the punchline of anyone's stupid jokes.

People have the right not to be joked about now?

I really cannot fathom why people (don't mean you specifically RHD, btw) can get so worked up about a joke, when all over the world you hear infinitely more offensive jokes by comedians (being hailed by applause mind you!). I mean, I can understand why people think it's a stupid and inappropriate joke, I think that myself, but when the *** hits the fan, it's just a joke.

Also, when assessing the appropriateness of jokes, people should consider that humour is highly determined by the cultural context in which it appears and relies on all sorts of subtle cues, intonation etc. I haven't heard/read the original interview, but if you only have a fragment, don't speak the language and aren't familiar with the culture, you should probably refrain from drawing overly conclusive conclusions about a joke....

 

[Red Rick]

Damn, what a dumb situation. As much as I like to hate on political correctness, I'd rather just wish that everyone could just make up their own flawed opinion and live with that rather than everyone screaming bloody murder telling other people what they should think. That's the most annoying part.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Getting very off topic now with politics/economics ...

It's a guy making a poor taste joke, he doesn't need to be thrown off a team for trying to make a few people laugh.

No one has said that he needs to be thrown off of his team. Where you getting that from?

I think this was me not being clear enough. I meant dropped from the tour squad, I thought it was obvious but clearly not. Of course, I've clarified that several times but people who seem able to read and argue with every other post I've made seem to miss that one...

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Damn, what a dumb situation. As much as I like to hate on political correctness, I'd rather just wish that everyone could just make up their own flawed opinion and live with that rather than everyone screaming bloody murder telling other people what they should think. That's the most annoying part.

You should think like me!

For what its worth, I understood that KB meant tossed off the TdF squad, not tossed in front of a firing squad.

 

[movingtarget]

Yet naked people running beside the riders barely rates a mention.....................another storm in a D Cup.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Yet naked people running beside the riders barely rates a mention.....................another storm in a D Cup.

Coz they chose to do so.
I'm all about the choice of a person, can you tell?

 

[ciranda]

In the USA and Britain there is no gender wage gap. There is a massive amount to write about this topic. However, it is off topic and so I think we should end that particular conversation here.

Of course there is, crazy to think otherwise.

http://www.aauw.org/aauw_check/pdf_download/show_pdf.php?file=The-Simple-Truth
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/23/gender-pay-gap-average-18-per-cent-less-uk-women

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

The podium girls have made a choice to be podium girls. They didn't make a choice to be the punchline of anyone's stupid jokes.

People have the right not to be joked about now?

I really cannot fathom why people (don't mean you specifically RHD, btw) can get so worked up about a joke, when all over the world you hear infinitely more offensive jokes by comedians (being hailed by applause mind you!). I mean, I can understand why people think it's a stupid and inappropriate joke, I think that myself, but when the **** hits the fan, it's just a joke.

Also, when assessing the appropriateness of jokes, people should consider that humour is highly determined by the cultural context in which it appears and relies on all sorts of subtle cues, intonation etc. I haven't heard/read the original interview, but if you only have a fragment, don't speak the language and aren't familiar with the culture, you should probably refrain from drawing overly conclusive conclusions about a joke....

If the joke is offensive, yeah. Just because other people do it doesn't mean everybody should. Bad, offensive jokes gotta stop somewhere.
Besides, to me what was offensive about the joke was the false equivalence of Podium Girl = Someone Who Sleeps Around. Say what?

 

[Tonton]

Indeed, (loose) quote from the movie Les Tontons Flingueurs: "Morons would dare to do anything. That's how you can tell they're morons."

You know your classics Echoes .

Pretty sure there are also "salacious" quotes in that film too, though I may get confused with "Greed in the Sun".

But yes, the Michel Audiard penned films taught me everything about society. What I've remembered from those films is the frankness that characterised the main characters and how hypocrisy and cowardice are systematically ridiculed. That's why I would now tend to let people like Bakelants free. Of course he is no Audiard, not quite as subtle, does not have his stylistic skills to say the least but he's always spoken his mind. I often laughed at his audacity.

There are no "salacious quotes" in Les Tontons Flingueurs. None. The closest thing would be when Lino Ventura goes home to find that there's a party going on, and one young man talks to his friend wondering if Antoine is doing Patricia. Lino a.k.a Fernand doesn't appreciate the salacious comment and the next thing that you see is the young man unconscious on the hood of a car.

With regards to Bakelants, the whole political correctness stuff, free speech...say what you want, but there will be consequences. Any professional in cycling and other fields knows it or should know it. You're not paid to be funny. You're paid to work hard, get results,and give a good image of the company. As simple as that. Bakelants didn't get it...30 years old...

 

[ihosama]

Re:

Yes, implying that women are being kept around just so cyclists can have sex with them whenever they want is totally fine and people are just taking out of context.

His team should have dropped him, straight away. Their statement is just as offensive as what Bakelants said.

And your strawman is the most offensive of all.
In reality people who openly make such remarks jokingly are *precisely* those people who despect girls being promenaded like decorations without even thinking about it. Those people feel their mind having freedom for such sarcastic. Simply because they do not consider the thinking of low-lifes which do *actually* think of the girls as "easy" and thus also interpret the remarks as "serious", and thus offensive.

Promenading "juicy" girls around the podiium "is" sexist. That is the core of the evil, if you will. The whole purpose of that job is to sell their bodies for profit for the organizers. BUT it does not show bad on the girls. It does not show good on the organizers but mostly it shows bad on the society that this image is sold to as the customer. But then, we are people not machines. So let people be people. Including males liking to look at nice girls and vice versa. Nature made it that way for a reason.

But pointing out that the girls are there like the slaves on the medieval market is NOT sexist. It is actually the socially responsible way and the best approach to do so is humour.

Next. Punishing someone for making fun of a low practice has two effects. Firstly, it actually defends/supports that practice, achieving the polar opposite of protecting the dignity of those girls it claims to do. Secondly it creates a totalitarian atmosphere in the society which is a much bigger evil than any purported "bad manners" behavior.

There is a very nice english term for people who damage society this way in their self-righteousness. SJW. Like the communits, their evils lies not in the ideas they purport to carry. But in the agrressive and inconsiderate ways they try to push their own "only right" opinion as the "true" one.

/written from former communist country where humor was the only thing left to people when things were all just wrong, and where it was "normal" to destroy people's lives for one badly thought politically incorrect remark/

 

[ihosama]

Re: Re:

If the joke is offensive, yeah. Just because other people do it doesn't mean everybody should. Bad, offensive jokes gotta stop somewhere.

It does not work that way. You either have freedom of speech, and then not matter how nasty, a joke is a joke and at most says something about the author.

You you have a totalitarian society where people are affraid to call out problems for the fear of being misunderstood and punished for doing so.

And last point. As any good joke teller will know, 90% of a good joke is the right audience. A university professor will interpret the exact same joke very differently than a lumberjack. This is where context comes in and todays all-present recording of videos creates so much misinterpretation. It is now often no good all people in the room caught the joke and the sarcasm in it when anotyher 100k people who do not come from the same social background will cry bloody murder because they (expectedly) do not get it.

Here should come a basic rule of online or in general non-interactive communication: NEVER assume malice by the other party if there is any way to interpret the messaage differently.
In almost all such cases what is seen as a bad intent is a simple misinterpretation due to an unfortunate choice of words, a lack of context, or simply a different cultural background.

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

Why would you ask him about going without sex anyway? How is that relevant for an interview? Oh my God.

Probably because of his comments about porn, but yes, the interviewer should have just moved on.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bakelants comes across as the tool here, but that's an ackward and indecent question to make regardless.

I don't think he should be thrown off the Tour roster unless the owners wish so for PR reasons. Unless they straight up insult someone, I don't think we should be punishing adults for saying idiotic stuff. From now on people will know him as a *** and I guess that suffices.

Sounds to me like on of those square faced troglodytes who are always going on about their manhood. Pathethic, but just that. I want him the Tour so I can root againt him.

 

[Jagartrott]

You all seem to know him pretty well from one short interview.
I wonder if extrapolating from one data point that could be an outlier yields valuable results?