ASO demands apology from Bakelants after sexist remarks

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Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
kingjr said:
Chomsky said:
His words objectify women and imply that the podium girls are less than full human beings with their main use being to satisfy his sexual desires.

Words hurt. Jokes hurt. When we marginalize peopled with words and jokes we treat them differently. Women are subject to not only constant objectification but also to unwanted advances and attacks. They have to live everyday with caution and fear. They get paid 70 percent of what men do for the same work.
Do you have a detailed statistic on that, one that includes factors such as:

Number of hours that people work
Number of weekend days that people work
Number of overtime hours that people take
Number of sick days that people take
Number of paid holidays that people take
Level of experience
Level of education
Number of years worked at the company

etc.

Lots of reading if you really want:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=gender+pay+gap
I'm not the one who made a statement about the gender pay gap, I don't think the onus is on me to do the heavy lifting here.
 
Re: Re:

Chomsky said:
Words hurt. Jokes hurt. When we marginalize peopled with words and jokes we treat them differently. Women are subject to not only constant objectification but also to unwanted advances and attacks. They have to live everyday with caution and fear. They get paid 70 percent of what men do for the same work. Why? It all begins with words and jokes. When it's ok to treat people differently and marginalize their humanity with words and jokes it results in consequences where we treat them worse.

Bakelanta words might be thoughtless and not intended to do harm but they do harm and women suffer everyday because we accept attitudes like his.

If you are talking about the gender pay gap, than you are referring to one of the biggest myths of our time.
The '70-cents-for-every-dollar-men-earn' is a myth which has been thoroughly disproved by economists and political commentators alike.
Please do not quote stats that have not been thoroughly researched.
 
Re: Re:

kingjr said:
King Boonen said:
kingjr said:
Chomsky said:
His words objectify women and imply that the podium girls are less than full human beings with their main use being to satisfy his sexual desires.

Words hurt. Jokes hurt. When we marginalize peopled with words and jokes we treat them differently. Women are subject to not only constant objectification but also to unwanted advances and attacks. They have to live everyday with caution and fear. They get paid 70 percent of what men do for the same work.
Do you have a detailed statistic on that, one that includes factors such as:

Number of hours that people work
Number of weekend days that people work
Number of overtime hours that people take
Number of sick days that people take
Number of paid holidays that people take
Level of experience
Level of education
Number of years worked at the company

etc.

Lots of reading if you really want:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=gender+pay+gap
I'm not the one who made a statement about the gender pay gap, I don't think the onus is on me to do the heavy lifting here.

Abstract
Prior research has suggested that gender differences in physicians' salaries can be accounted for by the tendency of women to enter primary care fields and work fewer hours. However, in examining starting salaries by gender of physicians leaving residency programs in New York State during 1999-2008, we found a significant gender gap that cannot be explained by specialty choice, practice setting, work hours, or other characteristics. The unexplained trend toward diverging salaries appears to be a recent development that is growing over time. In 2008, male physicians newly trained in New York State made on average $16,819 more than newly trained female physicians, compared to a $3,600 difference in 1999.


Heavy man, heavy.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
kingjr said:
King Boonen said:
kingjr said:
Chomsky said:
His words objectify women and imply that the podium girls are less than full human beings with their main use being to satisfy his sexual desires.

Words hurt. Jokes hurt. When we marginalize peopled with words and jokes we treat them differently. Women are subject to not only constant objectification but also to unwanted advances and attacks. They have to live everyday with caution and fear. They get paid 70 percent of what men do for the same work.
Do you have a detailed statistic on that, one that includes factors such as:

Number of hours that people work
Number of weekend days that people work
Number of overtime hours that people take
Number of sick days that people take
Number of paid holidays that people take
Level of experience
Level of education
Number of years worked at the company

etc.

Lots of reading if you really want:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=gender+pay+gap
I'm not the one who made a statement about the gender pay gap, I don't think the onus is on me to do the heavy lifting here.

Abstract
Prior research has suggested that gender differences in physicians' salaries can be accounted for by the tendency of women to enter primary care fields and work fewer hours. However, in examining starting salaries by gender of physicians leaving residency programs in New York State during 1999-2008, we found a significant gender gap that cannot be explained by specialty choice, practice setting, work hours, or other characteristics. The unexplained trend toward diverging salaries appears to be a recent development that is growing over time. In 2008, male physicians newly trained in New York State made on average $16,819 more than newly trained female physicians, compared to a $3,600 difference in 1999.


Heavy man, heavy.

I do not currently have the time to disprove the gender pay gap myth. I could write a book on it. But very few serious economist take the figure seriously. It has been thoroughly disproved and there is no reliable data proving a gap.
But that is out of topic, so I will not elaborate at the moment.
 
Re:

BigMac said:
Why would you ask him about going without sex anyway? How is that relevant for an interview? Oh my God.
Bakelants started it, nobody asked him to bring up porn. The interviewer probably thought it was going in a different direction to a conventional interview, so asked a question about it I guess.
 
Re: Re:

Ruby United said:
I do not currently have the time to disprove the gender pay gap myth. I could write a book on it. But very few serious economist take the figure seriously. It has been thoroughly disproved and there is no reliable data proving a gap.
But that is out of topic, so I will not elaborate at the moment.

Alan Manning isn't a serious economist now?
 
Bakelants makes offensive jokes about podium girls, which do him no favors.

He has apologised, which is what he should do, I fail to see how anyone can defend him.

Lets accept his apology at face value though and move on.
 
Nov 29, 2010
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Getting very off topic now with politics/economics ...

It's a guy making a poor taste joke, he doesn't need to be thrown off a team for trying to make a few people laugh.
 
Re:

deValtos said:
Getting very off topic now with politics/economics ...

It's a guy making a poor taste joke, he doesn't need to be thrown off a team for trying to make a few people laugh.

It tends to happen with this kind of thing. It's always interesting though, helps shape an opinion of a poster very well.
 
Re:

deValtos said:
Getting very off topic now with politics/economics ...

It's a guy making a poor taste joke, he doesn't need to be thrown off a team for trying to make a few people laugh.
Agree with this. It was an awful joke: not funny, very misguided, disrespectful of another part of the 'cycling industry' (although for how much longer will podium girls exist?) and had undertones of sexism. But, nevertheless, it was clearly an attempt at a joke, at a bit of light hearted banter. I think a few stern words to Bakelants, reminding him of his responsibilites are enough here. It's just not comparable to, for example, Moscon or Albasini racially insulting other riders imo.
 
In general boys and girls in the 15-25 year old range are very sexual in their conversation. Much of what they talk about could be viewed negatively by those who forgot about being that age. Right or wrong its a fact or life. I've been coaching youth sports since 1990 and this aspect of their behavior is relatively static.

That being said, JB is 30 ish so he should be past this developmental stage. I get the feeling that the podium hostesses have turned JB down and he was getting back at them.
 
Re:

jmdirt said:
In general boys and girls in the 15-25 year old range are very sexual in their conversation. Much of what they talk about could be viewed negatively by those who forgot about being that age. Right or wrong its a fact or life. I've been coaching youth sports since 1990 and this aspect of their behavior is relatively static.

That being said, JB is 30 ish so he should be past this developmental stage. I get the feeling that the podium hostesses have turned JB down and he was getting back at them.

Surely that's communication within their peer-group though?
 
Apr 20, 2009
121
0
0
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
kingjr said:
Chomsky said:
His words objectify women and imply that the podium girls are less than full human beings with their main use being to satisfy his sexual desires.

Words hurt. Jokes hurt. When we marginalize peopled with words and jokes we treat them differently. Women are subject to not only constant objectification but also to unwanted advances and attacks. They have to live everyday with caution and fear. They get paid 70 percent of what men do for the same work.
Do you have a detailed statistic on that, one that includes factors such as:

Number of hours that people work
Number of weekend days that people work
Number of overtime hours that people take
Number of sick days that people take
Number of paid holidays that people take
Level of experience
Level of education
Number of years worked at the company

etc.

Lots of reading if you really want:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=gender+pay+gap
Doing a quick search here is a 2012 study which said the gap has improved to 82% for similar work and experience. I can't say I did more than briefly skim the study and will offer that as a disclaimer. I have seen the 70% number cited at many seminars for years but I cannot authenticate that number. But it is something I have always thought was quite evident that women are denied the same oppurtunities as men although to a much lesser extent than by race but certainly there are biases, extra hurdles lower compensation and higher barriers to entry. The question is not is there a gap but to what degree.

http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/03/Graduating-to-a-Pay-Gap-The-Earnings-of-Women-and-Men-One-Year-after-College-Graduation-Executive-Summary-and-Recommendations.pdf
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
kingjr said:
King Boonen said:
kingjr said:
Chomsky said:
His words objectify women and imply that the podium girls are less than full human beings with their main use being to satisfy his sexual desires.

Words hurt. Jokes hurt. When we marginalize peopled with words and jokes we treat them differently. Women are subject to not only constant objectification but also to unwanted advances and attacks. They have to live everyday with caution and fear. They get paid 70 percent of what men do for the same work.
Do you have a detailed statistic on that, one that includes factors such as:

Number of hours that people work
Number of weekend days that people work
Number of overtime hours that people take
Number of sick days that people take
Number of paid holidays that people take
Level of experience
Level of education
Number of years worked at the company

etc.

Lots of reading if you really want:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=gender+pay+gap
I'm not the one who made a statement about the gender pay gap, I don't think the onus is on me to do the heavy lifting here.

Abstract
Prior research has suggested that gender differences in physicians' salaries can be accounted for by the tendency of women to enter primary care fields and work fewer hours. However, in examining starting salaries by gender of physicians leaving residency programs in New York State during 1999-2008, we found a significant gender gap that cannot be explained by specialty choice, practice setting, work hours, or other characteristics. The unexplained trend toward diverging salaries appears to be a recent development that is growing over time. In 2008, male physicians newly trained in New York State made on average $16,819 more than newly trained female physicians, compared to a $3,600 difference in 1999.


Heavy man, heavy.
Thank you. I'm a newbie on this subject, so bear with me, you are probably in a better position than I am to judge the quality of the quoted statements below. I threw them in because I felt that some perspective is needed, as the cited studies may not show the full picture.

Here's a comment on that study by a Donald J. Harris, PhD, Research Director

Lo Sasso and colleagues are skeptical that broad pay differences have emerged in recent years and conjecture about the role of unmeasured (or mismeasured) variables in their OLS regression analysis. In this regard, the authors mention "on-call" requirements among other work conditions affecting physicians' quality of life. It is possible that some "cultural" variables may be missing as well -- e.g., prestige of the training institutions (medical school, residency and fellowship programs) or prestige of the employing institution.

It also may be worth considering that the missing variables play a much larger role in the higher-stakes subspecialty fields. One might get a handle on this by examining, by way of separate regressions, the magnitude of the salary disparities in the four specialites with the largest Ns: pediatrics (general), internal medicine (general), family practice, emergency medicine. If each of these analyses revealed only small differences in salaries by gender, and with little change over time, it would suggest that "micro" studies of the subspecialities may be the next fruitful line of physician compensation research.


Did some more reading in this related study which came to the following, similar conclusion, but has a couple more, and more detailed, comments. It addresses both gender and race.

White male physicians earn substantially more than black male physicians, after adjustment for characteristics of physicians and practices, while white and black female physicians earn similar incomes to each other, but significantly less than their male counterparts. Whether these differences reflect disparities in job opportunities is important to determine.

http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2923


1. It is almost impossible to compare the physician compensation in US as there are several variety of practices in the US. One the one hand you have Government facilities such as VA, prison jobs where the pay is pretty much standard for specialty and experience nation wide, and there is additional market pay based on location. I do not believe you will find any difference in the pay based on gender or race in such jobs.
2. Rest of the practices are private or affiliated with so called not for profit organizations. They can be further divided in to academic vs community practices based on the presence of students. Compensation is significantly less in the academic institutions as the said "work load" is thought to be less(taken care by residents and fellows). Although possible, but less likely that institutes will change their salary for a similar job based on color or gender of the applicant.
3. There is no data on specialty in this study which brings the most important argument. It is highly likely that there are more white male physicians in high earning specialty like orthopedics, cardiology, plastic surgery. This will skew the data significantly. More paying specialties are very competitive and effect of gender and race in to selection process can not be ruled out.
4. Annual earning also depends on the fact if the physician is working in rural vs urban setting, working weekends or nights which pays lot more than the regular hours.
5. Last but not least is the amount of hours worked. Female physicians may be choosing to work less hours and earn less due to family commitment. This simply can not be considered a discrimination.

And this

I am disappointed that the BMJ chose to publish a article that reported that black male physicians had lower incomes than their white male counterparts (1) because the methods that the authors used are severely flawed.

The authors used two datasets to arrive at their conclusions. The first, ‘The US Census American Community Survey’ (ACS), did not include information on physician specialty or physician practice characteristics, both of which are critical to the analysis of physician incomes. (2-5) Worse, that dataset truncates annual earned income at $200,000, causing the authors to impute earnings for 47% of the white male physicians they analyzed. I find it hard to imagine that BMJ would publish any other study in which the primary outcome was estimated for one-half of the study population. Any findings derived from this dataset should be disregarded.

The second dataset was derived from Community Tracking Study physician surveys for 2000-01 and 2004-05 and the 2008 Health Tracking physician survey. These data are better because they include physician specialty and physician and practice characteristics. However, in the 2008 dataset, income data are available only in $50,000 wide categories and have an upper value of "> $300,000" (the category for 19.4% of 2008 respondents). (6) The authors again impute values to generate their primary outcome variable – bizarrely applying the median level of what the income category in 2004-05 would have been to estimate a value of the categories in 2008. The authors subject these multiply imputed…and adjusted….and normalized estimates of key variables generated from wide income and work hour categories to multiple regression; they then provide absurdly specific adjusted annual income estimates.

The values that the authors report in the abstract are from their analysis of the ACS and demonstrate the largest race- and sex-based gaps of any of the 9 analyses they completed. These are the values that the media will report and the ones that the public will fixate upon. The authors claim that ‘patterns [shown in the abstract] were unaffected by adjustment’. But the degree of differences certainly were. The last table of the online-only available appendix shows results from the Community Tracking Studies that adjust for specialty and other variables known to predict physician incomes: the income gap between black and white male physicians drops from the $65,000 reported in the abstract (a 26% discount from median white male incomes) to $21,000 (a 9.5% discount). Further, the difference between the upper bound of the black male physician income estimate and the lower bound of the white male physician income estimate decreases from $43,000 (reported in the abstract at p<0.001) to a barely statistically significant $1,100. Pretty big differences. Pretty important to note. And it is possible that analysis of data that were not repeatedly massaged would have found no statistical differences whatsoever.

Particularly at a time where there is a high level of racial tension in the US – perhaps most evident in the Black Lives Matter movement and in the nomination of Donald Trump – editors and researchers have a responsibility to be exceedingly careful when conducting research that might inflame those tensions. I appreciate that publishers want to publish articles that sell issues and generate media interest. But it was irresponsible of the editors of BMJ to publish such sensationalistic and poor quality work.
 
In the USA and Britain there is no gender wage gap. There is a massive amount to write about this topic. However, it is off topic and so I think we should end that particular conversation here.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
jmdirt said:
In general boys and girls in the 15-25 year old range are very sexual in their conversation. Much of what they talk about could be viewed negatively by those who forgot about being that age. Right or wrong its a fact or life. I've been coaching youth sports since 1990 and this aspect of their behavior is relatively static.

That being said, JB is 30 ish so he should be past this developmental stage. I get the feeling that the podium hostesses have turned JB down and he was getting back at them.

Surely that's communication within their peer-group though?
Yes, but they aren't overly concerned if they are overheard. I don't think that most would talk about it in an interview if that is what you are getting at.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
jmdirt said:
In general boys and girls in the 15-25 year old range are very sexual in their conversation. Much of what they talk about could be viewed negatively by those who forgot about being that age. Right or wrong its a fact or life. I've been coaching youth sports since 1990 and this aspect of their behavior is relatively static.

That being said, JB is 30 ish so he should be past this developmental stage. I get the feeling that the podium hostesses have turned JB down and he was getting back at them.

Surely that's communication within their peer-group though?

Which is just as bad. Something can either be said in an interview and around a group of friends or it can't. Either what he said was wrong or it wasn't.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
deValtos said:
Well damn, I guess every comedian in the UK that I've ever heard of is a terrible terrible person.

I will immediately ask for them to be removed from any media outlet.

Glad we're fixing problems together!

Sexism isn't funny, just like racism isn't funny. Who are you going to see? Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning?
nothing is funny these days, everything is sexist and racist.

Tired of that.

I love comedians who actually make fun of racist stereotypes, if they do it for all (white, black, asian, whatever) and sexist prejudices (men AND women).

The world would be a much better place if people would not get offended by everything. We are actually regressing in that department.
 
Re: Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
King Boonen said:
deValtos said:
Well damn, I guess every comedian in the UK that I've ever heard of is a terrible terrible person.

I will immediately ask for them to be removed from any media outlet.

Glad we're fixing problems together!

Sexism isn't funny, just like racism isn't funny. Who are you going to see? Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning?
nothing is funny these days, everything is sexist and racist.

Tired of that.

I love comedians who actually make fun of racist stereotypes, if they do it for all (white, black, asian, whatever) and sexist prejudices (men AND women).

The world would be a much better place if people would not get offended by everything. We are actually regressing in that department.

There was never some better era where there was an equality of mockery and an absence of offence. There was just a time when dominant groups could get away with mocking the marginalised without being criticised for their bigotry.