ASO demands apology from Bakelants after sexist remarks

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Really? At least with the first one you could make the, admittedly very weak, argument that he was just going to try his luck. The second one implies more that they all sleep around.

The English translation implied that those misses are there just to be taken advantage of. The actual quote implied both loose morals on his part and on the misses part - it's not sexism in my eyes because he's also belittling himself (why would it be worse that the podium misses sleep around, he's a father?). Anyway, this is just crap. Bakelants is actually a quite intelligent guy (he studied bio-engineering iirc) and not a nasty person. Poor taste in the interview, for sure, but nothing more.

We can go back into the history of sexism and why certain implications about men and women have different connotations but, honestly, I think you know that quite well. It's why men who sleep around get called studs and women who do the same get called sluts. To attempt to dismiss this or imply there is some sort of parity in opinion is wrong.

 

[yaco]

Believe this is more serious than the Moscon affair. Bakelant's statements are mind blowing.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

This need for people these days to jump on everything they can find to be offended and outraged by just to feed their own ego and sense of moral superiority is lunacy. We should stop caving and apologizing to crazy people like King Boonen who immediately call for a young father to lose his job just because he made a dumb joke. They don't deserve it, they deserve nothing.

I clarified that I meant he lose his position on the Tour team, not his job.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

Yes, implying that women are being kept around just so cyclists can have sex with them whenever they want is totally fine and people are just taking out of context.

His team should have dropped him, straight away. Their statement is just as offensive as what Bakelants said.

Wow! People need to calm down. Seriously.
He made a bad joke. He's not sexist. Yes, it wasn't the most intelligent of jokes but just get over it.
If he meant it seriously, then I would be concerned. But a small, misplaced joke....?
Come on

I'm unsure how you can argue that someone being sexist is not sexist...

The same way I am white and I have made racist jokes before, yet I am not racist.
The same way I am a Jew and I've made antisemitic jokes before, yet I am not antisemitic.
The same way Pewdiepie (the YouTube guy - I don't really know him) made antisemitic jokes, yet is not (as far as I know) antisemitic
I'ts called a joke. It's doesn't define who they are.

Respect the civil liberty of freedom of speech. It is freedom of speech that separates Western democracies from the countries in the Middle East who execute women and gays on a daily basis.
People like you, who don't believe in freedom of speech, are the people who lose it when one 'homophobic', 'misogynistic', 'racist' or 'antisemitic' joke is said. Yet, ironically - and paradoxically-, it is only because of freedom of speech that these people have equal rights and equality of opportunity. Just look at the Middle East.

Sorry, if you make racist jokes then you are a racist.

I'm not sure how you think I don't believe in freedom of speech, would you care to elaborate? If anything you seem to be the one suggesting I shouldn't express my opinion on this matter.

So where's the line? What can you joke about and what can you not joke about? Sex, age, gender, race, education, job, interests, hair color?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

"The AG2R La Mondiale rider had already made a joke about only contacting his parents during the race when he ran out of pornographic films to watch"

Bakelants apparently makes very-offensive jokes about his own family, don't know exactly what he said and don't care to look for the original interview. Suffice it to say that he claims to ask his own mother for help in masturbation.

Rather disgusting, and a crude sense of humor, so it would hardly be surprising if he has more jokes in the same genre targeting other subjects.

If the cycling organizers really do not want to be sexist, they should not have 'podium girls' in the first place

I think you've interpreted the first part wrongly, I don't think he meant that.

This has been brought up before and I completely agree. ASO are being massively hypocritical in this case. It doesn't make what he said any better.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

"The AG2R La Mondiale rider had already made a joke about only contacting his parents during the race when he ran out of pornographic films to watch"

Bakelants apparently makes very-offensive jokes about his own family, don't know exactly what he said and don't care to look for the original interview. Suffice it to say that he claims to ask his own mother for help in masturbation.

His comments were idiotic and show him in a bad light but that's not what he implied. The interviewer asked if he would contact his parents and he replied that he would, but only after he runs out of porn movies so they can bring him more.
His mind must be in the gutter for that to be the kind of subject he brings up when asked such a simple and innocent question.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

The original purpose of that thread: Women - in clothes - actually riding bikes, was cool.
What it sorta merged into: Woman - mostly without clothes - just standing awkwardly with bikes as if they've never seen a bike before, was just sorta weird.

Oh don't be innocent. You know that that thread was intended to depict women as object for our (men's) eyes, whether they be clothed or not. Not to present them as subject.

I just don't see anything wrong with you guys appreciating the fact that female (pro) cyclists can - obviously - be rather good-looking. Take Lizzie Deignan; you'd have to be blind to not notice that she looks pretty well. Besides, I frequently see female posters mentioning that they think a male rider is rather good looking, so why shouldn't a male poster be allowed to mention that they think a female rider is good looking?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

So where's the line? What can you joke about and what can you not joke about? Sex, age, gender, race, education, job, interests, hair color?

You can joke about whatever you like, as long as you accept the consequences of your actions. That's what being an adult is all about.

As I've previously said in this thread, My problem here is his specific singling out of a group he works with based on their gender. If he'd said he needed condoms because he was going out on the pull on a rest day or something similar because it was hard to go 3 weeks without sex then it wouldn't have caused a problem.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

"The AG2R La Mondiale rider had already made a joke about only contacting his parents during the race when he ran out of pornographic films to watch"

Bakelants apparently makes very-offensive jokes about his own family, don't know exactly what he said and don't care to look for the original interview. Suffice it to say that he claims to ask his own mother for help in masturbation.

His comments were idiotic and show him in a bad light but that's not what he implied. The interviewer asked if he would contact his parents and he replied that he would, but only after he runs out of porn movies so they can bring him more.
His mind must be in the gutter for that to be the kind of subject he brings up when asked such a simple and innocent question.

Why's that? Would it have been ok if he said that he would contact his parents when he ran out of cartoon movies? I don't see the problem here. People are way too sensitive. Everyone watches it and everyone knows it, yet it's outrageous when someone brings it up in public and even as a joke.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

Really? At least with the first one you could make the, admittedly very weak, argument that he was just going to try his luck. The second one implies more that they all sleep around.

The English translation implied that those misses are there just to be taken advantage of. The actual quote implied both loose morals on his part and on the misses part - it's not sexism in my eyes because he's also belittling himself (why would it be worse that the podium misses sleep around, he's a father?). Anyway, this is just crap. Bakelants is actually a quite intelligent guy (he studied bio-engineering iirc) and not a nasty person. Poor taste in the interview, for sure, but nothing more.

We can go back into the history of sexism and why certain implications about men and women have different connotations but, honestly, I think you know that quite well. It's why men who sleep around get called studs and women who do the same get called sluts. To attempt to dismiss this or imply there is some sort of parity in opinion is wrong.

This is what I'm getting at. Why would you be offended by remarks on loose morals of podium girls, but not on his own?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Really? At least with the first one you could make the, admittedly very weak, argument that he was just going to try his luck. The second one implies more that they all sleep around.

The English translation implied that those misses are there just to be taken advantage of. The actual quote implied both loose morals on his part and on the misses part - it's not sexism in my eyes because he's also belittling himself (why would it be worse that the podium misses sleep around, he's a father?). Anyway, this is just crap. Bakelants is actually a quite intelligent guy (he studied bio-engineering iirc) and not a nasty person. Poor taste in the interview, for sure, but nothing more.

We can go back into the history of sexism and why certain implications about men and women have different connotations but, honestly, I think you know that quite well. It's why men who sleep around get called studs and women who do the same get called sluts. To attempt to dismiss this or imply there is some sort of parity in opinion is wrong.

This is what I'm getting at. Why would you be offended by remarks on loose morals of podium girls, but not on his own? He was belittling himself and the podium girls, in the hopes it was funny.

Because he is in control of making the "joke" and can actively choose to make himself a part of it, although I still think you are pushing the belittling himself when society and history would show that he is not. The podium girls could not actively choose to be part of his "joke".

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

As I've previously said in this thread, My problem here is his specific singling out of a group he works with based on their gender.

The working place thing is something very few people have brought up so thanks for mentioning it. It is the crux of the issue IMO.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Re:

Yes, implying that women are being kept around just so cyclists can have sex with them whenever they want is totally fine and people are just taking out of context.

His team should have dropped him, straight away. Their statement is just as offensive as what Bakelants said.

He was trying to crack a few jokes, you'll find more "offensive" jokes at any comedy show.

Bakelants is not saying "that women are being kept around just so cyclists can have sex with them whenever they want is totally fine". You just made that up so you could be outraged and ask him to be removed.

"definitely a packet of condoms. You never know where those podium hostesses are hanging out." Actual quote.

Which at most implies he thinks he has a chance with them. The joke is already bad as it is, no need to exaggerate even more.

He claimed that when his porno stash runs out he doesn't have to worry because there are podium girls around. That doesn't imply that he thinks he "has a chance" it implies that he thinks it's likely.

His words objectify women and imply that the podium girls are less than full human beings with their main use being to satisfy his sexual desires.

Words hurt. Jokes hurt. When we marginalize peopled with words and jokes we treat them differently. Women are subject to not only constant objectification but also to unwanted advances and attacks. They have to live everyday with caution and fear. They get paid 70 percent of what men do for the same work. Why? It all begins with words and jokes. When it's ok to treat people differently and marginalize their humanity with words and jokes it results in consequences where we treat them worse.

Bakelanta words might be thoughtless and not intended to do harm but they do harm and women suffer everyday because we accept attitudes like his.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

Because he is in control of making the "joke" and can actively choose to make himself a part of it, although I still think you are pushing the belittling himself when society and history would show that he is not. The podium girls could not actively choose to be part of his "joke".

I agree that his inclusion of the podium girls was poor taste, but I do not agree that it was meant to be sexist. He first said he would miss his daughter the most, afterwards he hints at cheating on his partner - I'd say he was belittling himself quite clearly there.

 

[RedheadDane]

Bakelanta words might be thoughtless and not intended to do harm but they do harm and women suffer everyday because we accept attitudes like his.

Which is why it's a good thing he was called out on it.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Because he is in control of making the "joke" and can actively choose to make himself a part of it, although I still think you are pushing the belittling himself when society and history would show that he is not. The podium girls could not actively choose to be part of his "joke".

I agree that his inclusion of the podium girls was poor taste, but I do not agree that it was meant to be sexist. He first said he would miss his daughter the most, afterwards he hints at cheating on his partner - I'd say he was belittling himself quite clearly there.

Then we should probably end that discussion there as we won't agree or convince each other.

[quote="King Boonen":11di82bj]
He claimed that when his porno stash runs out he doesn't have to worry because there are podium girls around. That doesn't imply that he thinks he "has a chance" it implies that he thinks it's likely.

His words objectify women and imply that the podium girls are less than full human beings with their main use being to satisfy his sexual desires.

Words hurt. Jokes hurt. When we marginalize peopled with words and jokes we treat them differently. Women are subject to not only constant objectification but also to unwanted advances and attacks. They have to live everyday with caution and fear. They get paid 70 percent of what men do for the same work. Why? It all begins with words and jokes. When it's ok to treat people differently and marginalize their humanity with words and jokes it results in consequences where we treat them worse.

Bakelanta words might be thoughtless and not intended to do harm but they do harm and women suffer everyday because we accept attitudes like his.[/quote]

Unsure why you quoted me. Pretty clear that I don't accept attitudes like this.

 

[Ruby United]

Re: Re:

Yes, implying that women are being kept around just so cyclists can have sex with them whenever they want is totally fine and people are just taking out of context.

His team should have dropped him, straight away. Their statement is just as offensive as what Bakelants said.

Wow! People need to calm down. Seriously.
He made a bad joke. He's not sexist. Yes, it wasn't the most intelligent of jokes but just get over it.
If he meant it seriously, then I would be concerned. But a small, misplaced joke....?
Come on

I'm unsure how you can argue that someone being sexist is not sexist...

The same way I am white and I have made racist jokes before, yet I am not racist.
The same way I am a Jew and I've made antisemitic jokes before, yet I am not antisemitic.
The same way Pewdiepie (the YouTube guy - I don't really know him) made antisemitic jokes, yet is not (as far as I know) antisemitic
I'ts called a joke. It's doesn't define who they are.

Respect the civil liberty of freedom of speech. It is freedom of speech that separates Western democracies from the countries in the Middle East who execute women and gays on a daily basis.
People like you, who don't believe in freedom of speech, are the people who lose it when one 'homophobic', 'misogynistic', 'racist' or 'antisemitic' joke is said. Yet, ironically - and paradoxically-, it is only because of freedom of speech that these people have equal rights and equality of opportunity. Just look at the Middle East.

Sorry, if you make racist jokes then you are a racist.

I'm not sure how you think I don't believe in freedom of speech, would you care to elaborate? If anything you seem to be the one suggesting I shouldn't express my opinion on this matter.

That argument is so often presented to me and you could not be more wrong. Of course I believe in free speech. Of course you should present your opinion on the matter. I simply believe you are wrong and I have every right to explain why, in the hope that you, or others, will understand why your logic is flawed and nonsensical. Express your opinion as much as you want. I enjoy these discussions as they often illustrate how people like you base their opinions on nonsensical, illogical feelings rather than facts.

If you make a racist joke you are not a racist.
I believe blacks have equal rights as whites. I believe all are equal under the law. I simply, occasionally, make a joke that can be considered racist or antisemitic. Perhaps it is because I sometimes crave attention, perhaps it is because I want to lighten the mood in a particular setting, perhaps it's because other people need lightening up. Jokes are not meant to be taken seriously. That is why they are designated as jokes.
Am I an anti-semite because I have made antisemitic jokes, despite the fact I am a Jew?

Furthermore, you did not back up your statements with any logic. I elaborated why, if you make a racist joke, your not automatically a racist. You merely repeated your previous statement.
Neither did you respond to my statements above about the irony of people like you.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Yes, implying that women are being kept around just so cyclists can have sex with them whenever they want is totally fine and people are just taking out of context.

His team should have dropped him, straight away. Their statement is just as offensive as what Bakelants said.

He was trying to crack a few jokes, you'll find more "offensive" jokes at any comedy show.

Bakelants is not saying "that women are being kept around just so cyclists can have sex with them whenever they want is totally fine". You just made that up so you could be outraged and ask him to be removed.

"definitely a packet of condoms. You never know where those podium hostesses are hanging out." Actual quote.

Not actual quote.
Poor translation from Dutch.
He actually said something closer to 'you never know where those podium misses have been'.

Really? That's even worse! :surprised:

 

[Brullnux]

It was a crappy joke, very innapropriate and completely unnecessary. It was quite a weird joke, in all honesty. Apologising to the podium girls is the right thing to do, as it was pretty offensive to them, and I hope he isn't in a relationship for his own sake, else that might be an uncomfortable situation for his family in three weeks time. Crass and offensive, but an apology is enough. Hopefully we can get rid of podium girls now as well.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

That argument is so often presented to me and you could not be more wrong. Of course I believe in free speech. Of course you should present your opinion on the matter. I simply believe you are wrong and I have every right to explain why, in the hope that you, or others, will understand why your logic is flawed and nonsensical. Express your opinion as much as you want. I enjoy these discussions as they often illustrate how people like you base their opinions on the basis of nonsensical, illogical feelings rather than facts.

Nice rant, but I'm not sure of the point?

If you make a racist joke you are not a racist.

Yes, you are. I'm not saying you white-supremecist or intent on causing harm. Racism manifests in a broad spectrum, but if you make a racist joke you are a racist.

I believe blacks have equal rights as whites. I believe all are equal under the law. I simply, occasionally, make a joke that can be considered racist or antisemitic. Perhaps it is because I sometimes crave attention, perhaps it is because I want to lighten the mood in a particular setting, perhaps it's because other people need lightening up. Jokes are not meant to be taken seriously. That is why they are designated as jokes.
Am I an anti-semite because I have made antisemitic jokes, despite the fact I am a Jew?

You also believe that it is acceptable to belittle people based on the colour of their skin for your own amusement. There are many, many jokes you can make that are not racist that will have the effect you desire. If you choose to use a racist joke, then you are a racist.

I'm unsure if internalised anti-semitisim is recognised like internalised racism and internalised sexism.

Furthermore, you did not back up your statements with any logic. I elaborated why, if you make a racist joke, your not as a automatically racist. You merely repeated your previous statement.

Are you saying that I have to justify why singling out people based on the colour of their skin is racist?

Neither did you respond to my statements above about the irony of people like you.

This statement seems predicated on the premise that I am against freedom of speech, which is not the case, so I didn't see a need to respond.

Again, point out where I've shown I'm against free speech please.

 

[RedheadDane]

I think he is in a relationship. After all:

Bakelants, who won the opening stage of the 2013 Tour de France and led the race for two days, began the interview by saying he would miss his "cute little daughter" Julia the most over the three weeks of racing. "But we'll see each other every day via Skype."

I hardly think Julia will be skyping on her own, and the way it's phrasing kinda - at least to me - makes it looks like he sees her everyday (when he's at home)

 

[Echoes]

Re: Re:

I just don't see anything wrong with you guys appreciating the fact that female (pro) cyclists can - obviously - be rather good-looking. Take Lizzie Deignan; you'd have to be blind to not notice that she looks pretty well. Besides, I frequently see female posters mentioning that they think a male rider is rather good looking, so why shouldn't a male poster be allowed to mention that they think a female rider is good looking?

You are attacking me on two opposite and contradicting viewpoints here. I'm supposed to be a macho for defending the right for Bakelants to say what he said but I'd be a puritan for being against podium girls and modelling.

Sorry but women are worth more than just playing on their beauty as objects. Armistead is very pretty but also a very good rider (and not a great person).

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

I just don't see anything wrong with you guys appreciating the fact that female (pro) cyclists can - obviously - be rather good-looking. Take Lizzie Deignan; you'd have to be blind to not notice that she looks pretty well. Besides, I frequently see female posters mentioning that they think a male rider is rather good looking, so why shouldn't a male poster be allowed to mention that they think a female rider is good looking?

You are attacking me on two opposite and contradicting viewpoints here. I'm supposed to be a macho for defending the right for Bakelants to say what he said but I'd be a puritan for being against podium girls and modelling.

Sorry but women are worth more than just playing on their beauty as objects. Armistead is very pretty but also a very good rider (and not a great person).

And Contador is very pretty, but also a very good rider.
To me the difference is between saying "This (female) cyclist is a great rider, and also pretty good looking." and saying "This (naked) lady is... errr... standing awkwardly with a bike."
(And why are you referring to her as 'Armitstead'? Her name is Deignan. She chose to change her name when she got married.)

You can, like Bakelants did, say something offensive without meaning to. In which you need to be told that it was offensive so you can learn, and not do it again.

You can, like what happened in the BoB thread, appreciate that someone can be good at something and be good-looking too.

As for the naked ladies in the BoB thread; I was never offended by those pictures, since - I assume - they're models and therefore chose to have those photos taken, I was merely puzzled by them. Similar to why I'm not offended by the presence of Podium Girls, since they chose that job, but still - mildly - offended by Bakelant's comment, as the girls never chose to have anyone make such a comment.

 

[Singer01]

like anyone with any real taste would want to sleep with a professional cyclist, they must have the least appealing body type on the planet, it would be like lying on top of a xylophone.

 

[Echoes]

I'll never refer to women with their married names (except out of ignorance) until men get the names of their wives...

In the Middle-Ages that did not exist. Children did not automatically got their fathers' names.