ASO picks 3 Spanish TDF winners 4 dope testing post stage: Contador, Sastre, Perriro

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Jun 26, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
That is a good question - but it should be taken to The Clinic!
Show me the way. I started the thread as part of what happened at end of "todays" stage and later realized it still should have landed in the "clinic." Apologized and asked how to move it but don't have an answer. If there is a way to kill or move the thread I'll gladly do it.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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byu123 said:
Why do I get the gut feeling that the heretofore unavailable test for autologous blood doping, which WADA has been hinting for awhile was in the process of being developed and as of last October was in the "validation" stage, is now available and being used in this years TDF? We can only hope.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/oct/10/drugsinsport-cycling

"Olivier Rabin, the director of science at Wada, said: "We do not indicate when a test is ready, so as not to warn athletes. We are looking for specific methods to reveal autologous blood transfusions, but as of today these methods are not implemented - they're still at the validation stage. But [a test] is coming." October 10, 2008

If the test has been in "validation stage" as of 9 months ago. What better time to pull that cat out of the bag than right before the first serious mountain top finish in the TDF????

Shades of the unknown CERA test surprise may be in the offing for anyone engaged in autologous blood doping. You would have to be totally brain dead to do autologous blood doping if you were a rider. You know that since 2004 they can store and go back and test samples AND you know its only a matter of time before they perfect the one they are clearly working on. How stupid would you have to be to use autologous blood doping knowing either A) you are going to get nailed during the TDF, or B) shortly thereafter. Lose/Lose for blood dopers.
never thought i'd say this, but: this is a very good post byu. thanks for a good read :cool:
 
Jun 26, 2009
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workingclasshero said:
never thought i'd say this, but: this is a very good post byu. thanks for a good read :cool:
Yeah . . . even a broken clock gives good information 2 minutes out of 1440 . . . ;)
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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byu123 said:
Show me the way. I started the thread as part of what happened at end of "todays" stage and later realized it still should have landed in the "clinic." Apologized and asked how to move it but don't have an answer. If there is a way to kill or move the thread I'll gladly do it.
Damn - I thought there was a way to move or close a thread if you started it but I have checked through my own settings and I cant find anything, sorry.

I read your earlier posts about realising that it is in the 'wrong' forum - my only problem is you have raised an interesting and valid question but it could disappear off this forum without the subject matter being discussed.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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If this helps: I've never been aware of any forums where anyone can move threads except a moderator.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Honestly, I hope the race is "clean" or at least as clean as can be tested. I'm really, really hoping for no doping infractions. Just one year please?
 
Mar 19, 2009
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byu123 said:
Whats left for blood dopers??? (Assuming the autologous blood test is here).

Aside from far fetched conspiracy theories (non-existent secret US Army drugs etc.) what is left for a desperate blood doper? EPO, CERA, Homologous, Autologous blood doping all out . . . what do they have to turn to? Hopefully the answer is nothing.
Here is your answer. There are novel erythropoiesis stimulating therapies in the pipeline that are undetectable. The question is whether they can use them and still not trip the biopassport.

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/200
 
Mar 10, 2009
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dgodave said:
So if there's a positive/ejection in the Tour, which forum do we discuss it in?
.
I think all positive/ejections from the Tour should be discussed in a new forum called " The Slammer "
 
Jun 26, 2009
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Epicycle said:
Here is your answer. There are novel erythropoiesis stimulating therapies in the pipeline that are undetectable. The question is whether they can use them and still not trip the biopassport.

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/200
Nearly two decades ago, recombinant human erythropoietin transformed the management of chronic kidney disease anemia by allowing a more sustained increase in hemoglobin than was possible by intermittent blood transfusion. The treatment was highly effective, but because of the fairly short half-life of the molecule at approximately 6 to 8 h, injections usually had to be administered two to three times weekly. A second-generation erythropoietin analogue, darbepoetin alfa, was then created, with a longer elimination half-life in vivo that translated into less frequent dosing, usually once weekly or once every 2 wk. More recently, another erythropoietin-related molecule has been produced called Continuous Erythropoietin Receptor Activator with an even greater half-life, and other molecules are in development or are being licensed, including biosimilar epoetin products and Hematide. The latter is a synthetic peptide-based erythropoietin receptor agonist that, interestingly, has no structural homology with erythropoietin, and yet is still able to activate the erythropoietin receptor and stimulate erythropoiesis. The search goes on for orally active antianemic therapies, and several strategies are being investigated, although none is imminently available. This article reviews the latest progress with these novel erythropoietic agents in this new era in anemia management.


If its "synthetic" there will be a fairly easy way to develop a test to detect it.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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byu123 said:
Nearly two decades ago, recombinant human erythropoietin transformed the management of chronic kidney disease anemia by allowing a more sustained increase in hemoglobin than was possible by intermittent blood transfusion. The treatment was highly effective, but because of the fairly short half-life of the molecule at approximately 6 to 8 h, injections usually had to be administered two to three times weekly. A second-generation erythropoietin analogue, darbepoetin alfa, was then created, with a longer elimination half-life in vivo that translated into less frequent dosing, usually once weekly or once every 2 wk. More recently, another erythropoietin-related molecule has been produced called Continuous Erythropoietin Receptor Activator with an even greater half-life, and other molecules are in development or are being licensed, including biosimilar epoetin products and Hematide. The latter is a synthetic peptide-based erythropoietin receptor agonist that, interestingly, has no structural homology with erythropoietin, and yet is still able to activate the erythropoietin receptor and stimulate erythropoiesis. The search goes on for orally active antianemic therapies, and several strategies are being investigated, although none is imminently available. This article reviews the latest progress with these novel erythropoietic agents in this new era in anemia management.


If its "synthetic" there will be a fairly easy way to develop a test to detect it.
I don't think there is a test for Hematide yet.

HIF stabilizers are even more challenging because they merely act on the genes that stimulate EPO production by mimicking the body's reaction to high altitude. An antidoping research group recently went to the Himalayas to look for ways to determine such changes but a detection method is probably a long way off.
 
A

Anonymous

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Epicycle said:
I don't think there is a test for Hematide yet.

HIF stabilizers are even more challenging because they merely act on the genes that stimulate EPO production by mimicking the body's reaction to high altitude. An antidoping research group recently went to the Himalayas to look for ways to determine such changes but a detection method is probably a long way off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrm-rPSCIBw
 
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Anonymous

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Epicycle said:
I don't think there is a test for Hematide yet.

HIF stabilizers are even more challenging because they merely act on the genes that stimulate EPO production by mimicking the body's reaction to high altitude. An antidoping research group recently went to the Himalayas to look for ways to determine such changes but a detection method is probably a long way off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrm-rPSCIBw
:D:D:D
 
May 13, 2009
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byu123 said:
If its "synthetic" there will be a fairly easy way to develop a test to detect it.
Wrong. It all depends on whatever metabolites are produced and are present in whatever bodily fluids you want to test. Some of those things are really, really tricky to test for, some are gone really, really fast, so your window of testing is tiny.

Read some information which is available online. Then come back and ask questions here or other places where this is discussed. Eventually you'll convert to the other side.
 
byu123 said:
Whats left for blood dopers??? (Assuming the autologous blood test is here).

Aside from far fetched conspiracy theories (non-existent secret US Army drugs etc.) what is left for a desperate blood doper? EPO, CERA, Homologous, Autologous blood doping all out . . . what do they have to turn to? Hopefully the answer is nothing.
When do the mods move this thread to the doping forum?

There is all sorts of stuff. Even the things that can be detected often have very small detection windows.

A standard dose of EPO can only be detected for about three days. We know from retrospective testing that Armstrong used three doses of EPO in the 1999 Tour, one before the prologue and two during the race. Take a smaller dose and the size of the detection window decreases. Take a small enough one in the evening, drink a lot of water to ensure urination in the middle of the night, and the EPO is undectable in the morning.

There is no one "EPO." There are a lot of EPO products. First they came from the mainstream pharmaceutical companies. Now they are available from China, Russia, etc. These are the so-called bio-similar EPOs. Each may be a little different, and require a slightly different criteria to declare a positive. For example, Dynepo was detected in Rasmussen's urine during the 2007 Tour de France. He could not be declared positive for EPO because there was no official test for that particular variant. Multiply by dozens and dozens of variants, and you have a serious problem with detection. The new protocols for recognition of bio-similar EPOs may be in effect now; I am not sure.

Then there are masking agents. Someone figured out that common detergent contains a chemical that will destroy EPO in a sample. So from the early 00s to the mid-00s riders were surreptitiously dropping the powder into their sample. Some would coat their fingers with the powder and then urinate on their fingers as they gave a sample. Testers would find there was no EPO in the samples at all, not natural nor artificial. For some reason this never raised an alarm.

As far as the "secret" military research, it did in fact take place. During the fifties the U.S. military tested a huge variety of potential drugs for use on the battlefield. I believe this research is available. If I remember right, BALCO's first version of "The Clear" was a steroid that was initially tested by the military but was rejected because of fears about toxicity. Information about tons of steroids that are not manufactured by legit companies is out there, and it no longer costs much to create these products or variants of these products. Victor Conte has said there are lots and lots of BALCOs.

The sad fact is that the UCI and other sports in general do not want to catch anyone doping. They set the bar for being positive high enough that most athletes can skate under the bar with ease. For example, Damsgaard has complained in the past that he can see obvious use of artificial EPO in samples but the samples are below the positive threshold so they cannot be declared positive. When the lab at Lausanne analyzed the samples from the 2007 TdF, they estimated that 80% of all the riders were using testosterone or HGH.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Goes back to the same old story. As long as the UCI controls all the testing and is the gateway for all +ve/-ves, we'll never have the truth. The same way some fish are too big to fry.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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byu123 said:
Why do I get the gut feeling that the heretofore unavailable test for autologous blood doping, which WADA has been hinting for awhile was in the process of being developed and as of last October was in the "validation" stage, is now available and being used in this years TDF? We can only hope.

Shades of the unknown CERA test surprise may be in the offing for anyone engaged in autologous blood doping. You would have to be totally brain dead to do autologous blood doping if you were a rider. You know that since 2004 they can store and go back and test samples AND you know its only a matter of time before they perfect the one they are clearly working on. How stupid would you have to be to use autologous blood doping knowing either A) you are going to get nailed during the TDF, or B) shortly thereafter. Lose/Lose for blood dopers.
From Wikipedia (yes I know, not the most reliable source) the new test is going to rely on quantitating an enzyme that is very unstable, and thus would be lower in stored blood samples. Consequently, it would seem that it might not be possible to test stored samples. I agree though, that now would be the perfect time to start using the test.

Here is an excerpt from wikipedia on the test.

At present there is no accepted method for detecting autologous transfusions (that is, using the athlete’s own RBCs), but research is in progress and the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) has promised that a test will eventually be introduced. The test method and its introduction date are to be kept secret in order to avoid tipping off doping athletes. The assay under development may be a measure of 2,3-bisphosphoglycerate (2,3-BPG) levels in an athlete's red blood cells. Because 2,3-BPG is degraded over time, the stored blood used in autologous transfusions will have less 2,3-BPG than fresh blood. A 2,3-BPG concentration lower than normal may therefore be an indication of autologous transfusion.
 
Apr 11, 2009
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byu123 said:
You would have to be totally brain dead to do autologous blood doping if you were a rider. You know that since 2004 they can store and go back and test samples AND you know its only a matter of time before they perfect the one they are clearly working on. How stupid would you have to be to use autologous blood doping knowing either A) you are going to get nailed during the TDF, or B) shortly thereafter. Lose/Lose for blood dopers.
The Tour speeds have not declined. The riders knew EPO of all forms was being tested for, but they still pushed the limits with CERA. Cheats will go to all sorts of lengths: look at Las Vegas, LOL, and all the counter-strategies by the "houses" there.

It's not at all clear yet that a purported test for autologous blood doping will be retroactively effective. It's not as if you have a drug residue, and it's not clear that the bio passport will be the thing catching autologous blood boosting. It's still the "safest" thing to do by far with a large return or bang for buck (huge expected value, if you want to talk betting, ie. huge performance payback for low risk of detection still; a good deal/bet). Ask Jonathon Vaughters his views of Postal and Discovery (he did their stuff, no doubt about it; holds or did hold the record for Ventoux climb; and incidentally Lance is 25% faster than Lemond on Alpe d'Huez). Brain dead, no I don't think he is :rolleyes:

We'll know after the fact when autologous blood doping becomes a risk for detection (per CERA). Riders are still before the fact here.

Cheating pays, crime pays for those who think they can get away with and have large "team" resources to pay for the best help. For one, this whole idea of having a fulltime doctor or even several on a team is slightly ridiculous to begin with. Why needed? It's tough to catch cheats. When the average speeds on climbs and Tour generally decline, we'll know they're clean.
 
Apr 11, 2009
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Cobber said:
very unstable, and thus would be lower in stored blood samples. Consequently, it would seem that it might not be possible to test stored samples.
Makes perfect sense. Blood is a bio "product" that decays and changes composition very quickly after the fact (and bio passport is prob. not the test to find the autologous cells, hence there's no longitudinal profile to compare against). Look at how bodies literally start to rot in a few hours after someone dies. No chemical residue for one's own blood. The half life of these things is critical; it's why UCI/AFLD are testing day and night at Tour to reduce the window of opportunity. Kohl made some remarkable statements about how quickly some of this stuff leaves your system or leaves no trace, even right up against a PED test.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Epicycle said:
Here is your answer. There are novel erythropoiesis stimulating therapies in the pipeline that are undetectable. The question is whether they can use them and still not trip the biopassport.

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/200
I have heard that the GB team are using something experimental, which was kind of confirmed last month by the Fuji doctor, who said there was some stuff in the UK that the peloton was using.

Lots of the UK guys jumped a few levels in the last 3 years. And not Wiggins nor Millar. Lots of guys dont meet Boardman's smell test.
 
May 13, 2009
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Cobber said:
From Wikipedia (yes I know, not the most reliable source) the new test is going to rely on quantitating an enzyme that is very unstable, and thus would be lower in stored blood samples. Consequently, it would seem that it might not be possible to test stored samples. I agree though, that now would be the perfect time to start using the test.

Here is an excerpt from wikipedia on the test.
Another possibility would be to count reticulocytes, I think.

The best way would be to test for total Hb volume using the CO test. It would most likely expose the presence of other O2 carriers as well (if they're used).
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
Another possibility would be to count reticulocytes, I think.

The best way would be to test for total Hb volume using the CO test. It would most likely expose the presence of other O2 carriers as well (if they're used).
Last year Christian Vande Velde had retics ambiguously low when he came to the Tour. I think it was CVV, could be conflating CVV and Millar. Millar was target tested a couple of times in the first week.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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blackcat said:
Last year Christian Vande Velde had retics ambiguously low when he came to the Tour..
Yeah you have to blood dope (transfusions) for an extended time period to get that.

They could be using 02 carrier boosters no doubt...But blood doping gives the biggest bang. The power values of the riders are still right up there. IF, IF the ASO and WADA got total body hemoglobins into the Tour like "Byu123" says then blood doping would then be out.

But this hasnt happend yet because the power values are simply though the roof. Lance even said he's as strong as when he beat Ullrich 03.
 

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