Astana Licence to be withdrawn?

[the sceptic]

Re:

The difference is that Astana are perceived here as 'good' dopers (along with Katusha, Movistar and Tinkoff) whereas Sky are considered to be 'nasty' dopers (along with Orica and Garmin). The doping on the ' good' teams is not encouraged but it is generally tolerated as part of the sport and it is considered fine to be a supporter of those teams or any of their riders (apart from Alex Dowsett). However, any support for anybody who rides for any of the 'nasty' teams is not tolerated and any posters who expresses any support for riders on these teams will be constantly ridiculed and bullied and requested to not post in the clinic by the self appointed clinic police who reside here.

I think it's just that Astana fans have a better grasp of reality.

 

[wendybnt]

The difference is that Astana are perceived here as 'good' dopers (along with Katusha, Movistar and Tinkoff) whereas Sky are considered to be 'nasty' dopers (along with Orica and Garmin). The doping on the ' good' teams is not encouraged but it is generally tolerated as part of the sport and it is considered fine to be a supporter of those teams or any of their riders (apart from Alex Dowsett). However, any support for anybody who rides for any of the 'nasty' teams is not tolerated and any posters who expresses any support for riders on these teams will be constantly ridiculed and bullied and requested to not post in the clinic by the self appointed clinic police who reside here.

I think it's just that Astana fans have a better grasp of reality.

Wasn't it you that said recently that you'd rather Astana won GTs? Astana have been winning GTs since 2006. 7 of them, as far as I can recall. That's 9 years of dope-raddled wins, dope busts, and a near expulsion from the World Tour. Absolute piss-taking to the max of pro-cycling. Giving a message to everybody else that if you want to beat Astana you must dope too.

And you'd rather they won? Bizarre.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

The difference is that Astana are perceived here as 'good' dopers (along with Katusha, Movistar and Tinkoff) whereas Sky are considered to be 'nasty' dopers (along with Orica and Garmin). The doping on the ' good' teams is not encouraged but it is generally tolerated as part of the sport and it is considered fine to be a supporter of those teams or any of their riders (apart from Alex Dowsett). However, any support for anybody who rides for any of the 'nasty' teams is not tolerated and any posters who expresses any support for riders on these teams will be constantly ridiculed and bullied and requested to not post in the clinic by the self appointed clinic police who reside here.

Interestingly, this is the complete reversal of what we see in the media. Like it's some sort of reaction to it. Food for thought, huh.

 

[del1962]

Former Astana rider Lance Armstrong, is he a good or bad doper?

 

[malakassis]

Re: Re:

The difference is that Astana are perceived here as 'good' dopers (along with Katusha, Movistar and Tinkoff) whereas Sky are considered to be 'nasty' dopers (along with Orica and Garmin). The doping on the ' good' teams is not encouraged but it is generally tolerated as part of the sport and it is considered fine to be a supporter of those teams or any of their riders (apart from Alex Dowsett). However, any support for anybody who rides for any of the 'nasty' teams is not tolerated and any posters who expresses any support for riders on these teams will be constantly ridiculed and bullied and requested to not post in the clinic by the self appointed clinic police who reside here.

I think it's just that Astana fans have a better grasp of reality.

this. the reason i like astana, tinkoff, katyusha, movistar rather than the new "clean" teams is also due to conservatism. here you have grown structures and experience back to the 80s. you know what you get. a working system of loyality and respect. metallica would say sad, but true.
then you have sky who came outta nowhere, destroy the field AND overemphazise the clean thing. but they appear alianesk technokrats and most of the time they race without imagination. plus froomes carreer has to many parallels to lance's.
maybe the new teams attract fans who joined cycling after puerto or didnt wintess the rise and fall of USPS.
of course the media hype the "clean" teams and diss others. most people rather want mr niceguy and clean win than some film-noir guy.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

I only like Astana because their shirt is gorgeous and they often make races exciting

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

The difference is that Astana are perceived here as 'good' dopers (along with Katusha, Movistar and Tinkoff) whereas Sky are considered to be 'nasty' dopers (along with Orica and Garmin). The doping on the ' good' teams is not encouraged but it is generally tolerated as part of the sport and it is considered fine to be a supporter of those teams or any of their riders (apart from Alex Dowsett). However, any support for anybody who rides for any of the 'nasty' teams is not tolerated and any posters who expresses any support for riders on these teams will be constantly ridiculed and bullied and requested to not post in the clinic by the self appointed clinic police who reside here.

I think it's just that Astana fans have a better grasp of reality.

Wasn't it you that said recently that you'd rather Astana won GTs? Astana have been winning GTs since 2006. 7 of them, as far as I can recall. That's 9 years of dope-raddled wins, dope busts, and a near expulsion from the World Tour. Absolute piss-taking to the max of pro-cycling. Giving a message to everybody else that if you want to beat Astana you must dope too.

And you'd rather they won? Bizarre.

they don't treat us like we are zipped up the back unlike some........
#nutella
#ellingworthrips

 

[hrotha]

They totally do. MPCC, Nibali as a beacon of clean cycling, etc etc.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

The difference is that Astana are perceived here as 'good' dopers (along with Katusha, Movistar and Tinkoff) whereas Sky are considered to be 'nasty' dopers (along with Orica and Garmin). The doping on the ' good' teams is not encouraged but it is generally tolerated as part of the sport and it is considered fine to be a supporter of those teams or any of their riders (apart from Alex Dowsett). However, any support for anybody who rides for any of the 'nasty' teams is not tolerated and any posters who expresses any support for riders on these teams will be constantly ridiculed and bullied and requested to not post in the clinic by the self appointed clinic police who reside here.

I think it's just that Astana fans have a better grasp of reality.

Wasn't it you that said recently that you'd rather Astana won GTs? Astana have been winning GTs since 2006. 7 of them, as far as I can recall. That's 9 years of dope-raddled wins, dope busts, and a near expulsion from the World Tour. Absolute piss-taking to the max of pro-cycling. Giving a message to everybody else that if you want to beat Astana you must dope too.

And you'd rather they won? Bizarre.

Fairly easy to explain: it's called double standards.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

They totally do. MPCC, Nibali as a beacon of clean cycling, etc etc.

This. Every team has PR guff related to being clean.

 

[hrotha]

It's not exactly every team either. Most aren't as in your face as Sky, but Astana has a similar or even worse BS-to-dodginess ratio.

 

[GJB123]

I think the main difference is that Astana are not rubbing our faces in it by giving other reasons why they are owning GT's. No bull menure about marginal gains, no Nutella, no better pillows, no beet root juice just the od-fashioned we are cleans while everybody with half a working brain and some knowledge can do the mats (calculating 1+1 is very easily done). Whereas Sky feed us a load of horse menure about why they are so much better and at the same time belittling other teams for being not professional enough. That is definitely more piss taking than any of the other teams manage to do.

Let's be honest, we have a few big teams in Astana, Tinkoff, Sky, Katoesja, Movistar and Eitxx (for one day races mainly) who are winning big in big races and of those only Sky is trying to make us believe it is the marginal gains. Heck, if it is commonly accepted (and I think it is for various reasons) that (part of) Astana, Tinkoff, Katoesja, Movistar and Etixx are doping than how in God's name does Sky manage to beat those dopes and beat them soundly and by quite some margin some cases.

I think it is more a case of being in sync more with old ways of the teams mentioned who are not overly concerned in making us believe otherwise.

Garmin and Oreca are in a different league to those teams as far as I am concerned (as are most of the other teams).

 

[roundabout]

you probably missed the classic example of an Astana rider thinking that people are idiots then

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=27488&p=1727757

 

[JimmyFingers]

Quick google search:

http://www.sportal.co.nz/article/news/vinokourov-slams-bmc-skys-dedication-to-clean-cycling/a47s0tgdrd9i13zmm4aaq97cg

"It's too easy that many people just point at us," Vinokourov said.
"I have discussed this with Roger Legeay, the president of the MPCC. We are affiliated to the MPCC and we really do everything to prevent our riders from doping.


"Teams like BMC and Team Sky talk about doping but they refuse to join the MPCC. How harmful is that for the image of cycling?
"Credibility is something everyone needs to work with. We have all our doors open. Anyone who wants to know something is welcome. We are credible."

Vinokourov insisted Astana do all they can to stop their cyclists from cheating.


"Every [sporting director] accompanies five or six riders and has contact with them every three days. The same applies to our doctors," the 41-year-old said.

"We require that all of our riders send their training data to us daily.

"If someone puts out different wattages, there's an immediate alarm bell. What more can we do? Put a guard next to each rider?"

Clearly Astana aren't interested in convincing us they are clean :rolleyes

 

[GJB123]

Re:

Quick google search:

http://www.sportal.co.nz/article/news/vinokourov-slams-bmc-skys-dedication-to-clean-cycling/a47s0tgdrd9i13zmm4aaq97cg

"It's too easy that many people just point at us," Vinokourov said.
"I have discussed this with Roger Legeay, the president of the MPCC. We are affiliated to the MPCC and we really do everything to prevent our riders from doping.


"Teams like BMC and Team Sky talk about doping but they refuse to join the MPCC. How harmful is that for the image of cycling?
"Credibility is something everyone needs to work with. We have all our doors open. Anyone who wants to know something is welcome. We are credible."

Vinokourov insisted Astana do all they can to stop their cyclists from cheating.


"Every [sporting director] accompanies five or six riders and has contact with them every three days. The same applies to our doctors," the 41-year-old said.

"We require that all of our riders send their training data to us daily.

"If someone puts out different wattages, there's an immediate alarm bell. What more can we do? Put a guard next to each rider?"

Clearly Astana aren't interested in convincing us they are clean :rolleyes

Same old, same old that you get from nearly very team. It is Sky that ups the ante by not only claiming they are clean (they all do) ut by aggressively pushing the message that is marginal gains, being more professional etc. If you don't see that difference than basically this discussion is useless.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

Quick google search:

http://www.sportal.co.nz/article/news/vinokourov-slams-bmc-skys-dedication-to-clean-cycling/a47s0tgdrd9i13zmm4aaq97cg

"It's too easy that many people just point at us," Vinokourov said.
"I have discussed this with Roger Legeay, the president of the MPCC. We are affiliated to the MPCC and we really do everything to prevent our riders from doping.


"Teams like BMC and Team Sky talk about doping but they refuse to join the MPCC. How harmful is that for the image of cycling?
"Credibility is something everyone needs to work with. We have all our doors open. Anyone who wants to know something is welcome. We are credible."

Vinokourov insisted Astana do all they can to stop their cyclists from cheating.


"Every [sporting director] accompanies five or six riders and has contact with them every three days. The same applies to our doctors," the 41-year-old said.

"We require that all of our riders send their training data to us daily.

"If someone puts out different wattages, there's an immediate alarm bell. What more can we do? Put a guard next to each rider?"

Clearly Astana aren't interested in convincing us they are clean :rolleyes

Same old, same old that you get from nearly very team. It is Sky that ups the ante by not only claiming they are clean (they all do) ut by aggressively pushing the message that is marginal gains, being more professional etc. If you don't see that difference than basically this discussion is useless.

So what? They are trying to convince a skeptical public they are clean, quite frankly an impossible task, just as all the other teams are. You point at what they do and say it is so much worse than what other teams do and I'll reply that you are simply very prejudiced against Sky. Its ok, you're in good company. Most of the forum for a start. I just try to see all the angles, rather than just one.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Quick google search:

http://www.sportal.co.nz/article/news/vinokourov-slams-bmc-skys-dedication-to-clean-cycling/a47s0tgdrd9i13zmm4aaq97cg

"It's too easy that many people just point at us," Vinokourov said.
"I have discussed this with Roger Legeay, the president of the MPCC. We are affiliated to the MPCC and we really do everything to prevent our riders from doping.


"Teams like BMC and Team Sky talk about doping but they refuse to join the MPCC. How harmful is that for the image of cycling?
"Credibility is something everyone needs to work with. We have all our doors open. Anyone who wants to know something is welcome. We are credible."

Vinokourov insisted Astana do all they can to stop their cyclists from cheating.


"Every [sporting director] accompanies five or six riders and has contact with them every three days. The same applies to our doctors," the 41-year-old said.

"We require that all of our riders send their training data to us daily.

"If someone puts out different wattages, there's an immediate alarm bell. What more can we do? Put a guard next to each rider?"

Clearly Astana aren't interested in convincing us they are clean :rolleyes

Same old, same old that you get from nearly very team. It is Sky that ups the ante by not only claiming they are clean (they all do) ut by aggressively pushing the message that is marginal gains, being more professional etc. If you don't see that difference than basically this discussion is useless.

So what? They are trying to convince a skeptical public they are clean, quite frankly an impossible task, just as all the other teams are. You point at what they do and say it is so much worse than what other teams do and I'll reply that you are simply very prejudiced against Sky. Its ok, you're in good company. Most of the forum for a start. I just try to see all the angles, rather than just one.

no they don't because the public to which they appeal is a different public...that public probably don't care about the nutella or page ripping other than as an amusing anecdote...SKYs (english speaking) public is new to racing and is in a post-armstrong era..it has a whole load of affluent new constituents of whom man will not really understand that obviously a khazak cycling team with Vino at the helm would be doping...I mean bloody hell, i would be disappointed if they weren't...

 

[bala v]

So Diego Rosa beats whole bunch of climbers (Majka, Pinot, Moreno, Pozzovivo, Henao, etc) on Superga, comfortably, and everybody seems ok with that, well I'm not! Astana pushing it over the line again!

 

[King Boonen]

No one is ok with anything Astana does, but they've all just given up caring.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, if an Astana rider wins there is, i guess, just a collective, 'Meh! another race, another dopers wins'

Astana does not having anyone defending their 'cleanliness', so no need to rebuke that with all the 'evidence'......other threads tend to be longer due to fans not wanting to see the 'evidence' that points to doping.

 

[staubsauger]

Rosa was a potential classics rider with Savio already. Nor he's clean, nor his win is that fishy.

 

[BigMac]

Bump.

Sorry, I'm way too butthurt, I had to.

 

[zapata]

Re:

Bump.

Sorry, I'm way too butthurt, I had to.

Who were you rooting for? Do you believe he is clean?

 

[Red Rick]

Only Rosa suprised me, I actually expected Nibali to just take off on the Civiglio.

 

[zapata]

Rosa was a sight, indeed. I don't believe nibali is clean, but i don't think he is doing anything out of the ordinary either.