Astana transfusion equipment "Criminal"

[Alpe d'Huez]

I really doubt someone will step up and say "take my sample, it wasn't me" even if they didn't dope. The omerta doesn't work like that.

The Lance or Alberto being on their own program is definitely possible.

The other possibility is that Levi is being left off, as he dropped out on Stage 12. I'm not sure when these bags were discovered, or he was already off the list (7 of 9 ream members total).

Either way, potentially bad news for Kloden, Zubeldia, Popo, Rask, Paulinho.

Wouldn't it be amusing if the "8th rider" turned out to be Dmitriy Muravyev? Being the lone Kazak on the team, and a lowly domestique, it's equally possible.

As an aside anyone who looks at this even on the surface and doesn't immediately conclude in an objective and logical point of view that it means Astana doped as a team...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Wasn't Puerto as well? Despite all the initial enthusiasm and sensational claims, when all was said and done there, not much was accomplished. Call me a cynic, but I'll just wait and see on this one.

The problem with Puerto was that the laws were not in place to go after the riders - however in France the laws are in place, so this could have legs.

 

[blackcat]

The problem with Puerto was that the laws were not in place to go after the riders - however in France the laws are in place, so this could have legs.

incorrect

Spain have laws against public health. France have chosen this law to investigate this matter. It is just a difference in political will. Spain said no crimes have occurred against public health, when looking at Manzano, one would be hard pressed to agree.

 

[Mellow Velo]

If one guy couldn't get a decent set of wheels from the team, I know who my money is on, not being on the Magnificent 7 programme.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Take Leecheimer out of the running and since Contador was fearful of sabotage by the team, maybe Contador will end up being the odd man out. I would not count on it, but that would make my year.

+1. Assuming that the whole team was doping, the likely scenario is that either AC and Levi or AC and Lance are the 2 odd men out, and the DNA matches the other teammates. No way would AC have let the team handle any of his doping paraphenalia. (He didn't even let them set up his bike for him.) I wouldn't think Lance would trust anybody else to handle his stuff either.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Wasn't Puerto a legal issue as well? Call me a cynic, but I'll just wait and see on this one.

You are not being a cynic. Quite pragmatic, actually. The difference may be that the Spanish courts muddled with it, and really had no will to pursue it. The French do have a law that is quite clear, a felony at that. They have shown more will than the Spaniards in the past, but I'll wait and see too.

The real issue is the UCI. They have shown very little backbone in such issues in the past and a preference that they go away on their own, and then issue press-releases on how the sport is cleaner than ever.

I'm getting sick of the negative spin towards Astana while the Bruyneel crew gets a pass.

I don't think that's going to continue. There's a direct link between the two that JB can't separate no matter what. He, like everyone else tied, is going to be giving the same comments for some time: deny, deny, deny.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Wouldn't it be amusing if the "8th rider" turned out to be Dmitriy Muravyev? Being the lone Kazak on the team, and a lowly domestique, it's equally possible.

As an aside anyone who looks at this even on the surface and doesn't immediately conclude in an objective and logical point of view that it means Astana doped as a team...

Unlikely that it would be Muravyev or any other individual rider because they were not on the program. I think what sets Bruyneel/Armstrong teams apart from others is that everyone is on the same program (workers can work harder that way).

 

[Beech Mtn]

So, we have 7 out of 8, with Levi being out of the race?
Let me see.....
21 CONTADOR Alberto
22 ARMSTRONG Lance
23 KLÖDEN Andréas
24 LEIPHEIMER Levi
25 MURAVYEV Dmitriy
26 PAULINHO Sergio
27 POPOVYCH Yaroslav
28 RAST Gregory
29 ZUBELDIA Haimar

________ = Current Astana Riders

________ = Current Shack Riders

Oh dear!

It's going to be darned lucky for the Kazakhs that Bruyneel picked up Muravyev, otherwise this could've been the poz that let AC out of his current Astana contract.

 

[Hugh Januss]

+1. Assuming that the whole team was doping, the likely scenario is that either AC and Levi or AC and Lance are the 2 odd men out, and the DNA matches the other teammates. No way would AC have let the team handle any of his doping paraphenalia. (He didn't even let them set up his bike for him.) I wouldn't think Lance would trust anybody else to handle his stuff either.

That is quite possible, I was just assuming that Levi hadn't lasted long enough in the race to be in the running, that may be a wrong assumption.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

+1. Assuming that the whole team was doping, the likely scenario is that either AC and Levi or AC and Lance are the 2 odd men out, and the DNA matches the other teammates. No way would AC have let the team handle any of his doping paraphenalia. (He didn't even let them set up his bike for him.) I wouldn't think Lance would trust anybody else to handle his stuff either.

I think you bring up a very good point.

The 2 of 9 not on the program were likely AC and LA for the reasons you list...probably. Or one of the two is Levi who crashed out on stage 12. Again, we need to find out the exact date the bags were discovered. Was Levi still racing? Or on a plane back home with his arm in a cast?

 

[Hugh Januss]

I think you bring up a very good point.

The 2 of 9 not on the program were likely AC and LA for the reasons you list...probably. Or one of the two is Levi who crashed out on stage 12. Again, we need to find out the exact date the bags were discovered. Was Levi still racing? Or on a plane back home with his arm in a cast?

Jinx on coke. You owe me a beverage.

 

[poupou]

I'm getting sick of the negative spin towards Astana while the Bruyneel crew gets a pass.

Don't worry. If Bruyneel is guilty of incencitive of doping he would face the biggest sentences, jail (until 5y) and fines.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I'm thinking this probably goes nowhere because of this:

The investigation itself was met with puzzlement by some observers because it was pointed out that the team's waste was 'official' waste handed over to the Tour organisers for disposal and possible testing as a matter of routine by the participating teams. According to Le Monde, insufficient evidence was found amongst the samples from other teams analysed by the investigation.

road.cc/content/news/12285-le-monde-claim-french-tour-de-france-anti-doping-investigation-focused-astana

It's incomprehensible that they would intentionally or even accidentally leave illegal materials in their rooms, or turn them over as "official waste", so there is likely to be some other explanation for all this.

Unless... they were pushed into a corner by circumstances - perhaps the plan to dispose of the waste surreptitiously somehow went awry, and they've been holding their collective breaths ever since?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

PouPou - You are from France, oui? Do you know if what you posted on JB is true to French law? I'd like to know how this could play out, as it is considered a felony. Can you answer?

Unless... they were pushed into a corner by circumstances - perhaps the plan to dispose of the waste surreptitiously somehow went awry, and they've been holding their collective breaths ever since?

I think that's quite possible. That compelling circumstances led to this, like serious time constraint. Or they finally made a big screw up.

LOL! Hugh!

If they list 7 of 8, as opposed to 7 of 9, I'd venture to guess either Levi was out, and only LA or AC was on their own program. There's no way both were doing their own thing. Considering how much AC was treated like a pariah by the team, I'd think he'd be paranoid to put himself in a situation to get compromised. But we've also believed for some time that LA was on a very specialized program - the most careful of the careful.

Either way, I still say if I ran the UCI (or someone like Sylvia Shenk) everyone involved on Astana at last year's Tour would probably be suspended indefinitely until the issue completely resolved.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

incorrect

Spain have laws against public health. France have chosen this law to investigate this matter. It is just a difference in political will. Spain said no crimes have occurred against public health, when looking at Manzano, one would be hard pressed to agree.

No Blackcat.
I said there were no laws in place in Spain during Puerto to go "after the riders".

Yes there were laws in place to go for Fuentes etc but not the athletes.
The laws written in Spain after were not applied retroactively - and as you pointed out this was more a political measure.

In France they will be able to pursue the riders - which makes it quite different from Puerto.

 

[Cobblestones]

It's going to be darned lucky for the Kazakhs that Bruyneel picked up Muravyev, otherwise this could've been the poz that let AC out of his current Astana contract.

Or, if you turn it around, maybe that's WHY he was picked up. M. had the dirt on the Shack.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

incorrect

Spain have laws against public health.

You're not allowed to be publicly healthy in Spain?

Susan

 

[Beech Mtn]

You are not being a cynic. Quite pragmatic, actually. The difference may be that the Spanish courts muddled with it, and really had no will to pursue it. The French do have a law that is quite clear, a felony at that. They have shown more will than the Spaniards in the past, but I'll wait and see too.

The real issue is the UCI. They have shown very little backbone in such issues in the past and a preference that they go away on their own, and then issue press-releases on how the sport is cleaner than ever.

Another important difference is that footballers were supposedly implicated in Puerto. This investigation only concerns cyclists, a sport with far less pull with the criminal courts.

 

[Mellow Velo]

If they list 7 of 8, as opposed to 7 of 9, I'd venture to guess either Levi was out, and only LA or AC was on their own program.

I think the "stuff" was collected during the final 4 stages, but the specific point, I know not.
Hence, it's "Lucky" Levi.
I can't see Berto being one of the "lads", keeping in mind Floyd's bag and the toilet.

Maybe, it's Bertie, the bus driver and 5 mechanics?

 

[poupou]

PouPou - You are from France, oui? Do you know if what you posted on JB is true to French law? I'd like to know how this could play out, as it is considered a felony. Can you answer?

Of course, it's true.

As you have seen the Ricco or Kohl have been not punished but the law is severe with members of doping ring.

Part of french laws of doping

Article L232-10 du Code du Sport : " Il est interdit à toute personne de :
1° Prescrire, céder, offrir, administrer ou appliquer aux sportifs participant aux compétitions et manifestations mentionnées à l'article L. 232-9, ou se préparant à y participer, une ou plusieurs substances ou procédés mentionnés à cet article, ou de faciliter leur utilisation ou d'inciter à leur usage ;
2° Produire, fabriquer, importer, exporter, transporter, détenir ou acquérir, aux fins d'usage par un sportif sans raison médicale dûment justifiée, une ou des substances ou procédés figurant sur la liste mentionnée au dernier alinéa de l'article L. 232-9 ;
3° Se soustraire ou s'opposer par quelque moyen que ce soit aux mesures de contrôle prévues par le présent titre.

Le 1° ne s'applique pas aux substances et procédés destinés à l'usage d'un sportif se trouvant dans le cas prévu à l'article L. 232-2.".

Sanction for traficking or helping doper...

Article L232-26 du Code du Sport :
" I.-La violation du 1° de l'article L. 232-9 est punie d'un an d'emprisonnement et de 3 750 € d'amende.
II.-La violation des 1° et 2° de l'article L. 232-10 est punie de cinq ans d'emprisonnement et de 75 000 € d'amende. 5years jail
Les peines prévues au premier alinéa du présent II sont portées à sept ans d'emprisonnement et à 150 000 € d'amende (7years if doping of young athletes)lorsque les faits sont commis en bande organisée, au sens de l'article 132-71 du code pénal, ou lorsqu'ils sont commis à l'égard d'un mineur ou par une personne ayant autorité sur un ou des sportifs.".

 

[JayZee]

This story came from Le Monde and not L'Equipe.

Susan

Yeah, I caught that and edited my post.

 

[Sheltowee]

Guess we know who won't be winning a third Tour de France in 2010, huh?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Of course, it's true..

Merci!

.

 

[Beech Mtn]

I wonder if Greg Lemond's settlement offer from Trek just went up?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

LOL!

Well, if we cross-reference to Lance's numbers where it was speculated that he doped on, or just after the 2nd rest day. That is in Verbier, between Stages 15 and 16, or July 20th - 21st. This would also be the most beneficial time to dope, the early morning of Stage 16 to Bourg-Saint-Maurice over the two massive St. Bernard climbs, with two more tough mountain days to come. This also fits within a few days of the finish, which was also speculated.

Levi was gone by this point in the race, crashing out on Stage 12.