Astarloa, De Bonis, Caucchioli, Lobato and Serrano are the 5 blood passport victims

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Mar 18, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
is anybody going to get around to talking about what's in this article or is everybody just going to bash the source?
My one comment is that he has listed hematocrit and hemoglobin, but not total protein levels. The change in hematocrit and hemoglobin (which are linked) on day 3 can be due to dehydration. Total protein would also be increased if the cyclist was dehydrated. Without this information, there is no way to tell if the changes in hematocrit and hemoglobin were normal variations or because of some other reason, with dehydration the most common cause.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Angliru said:
Thanks for the link.

Unrelated to my original post is that Iban Mayo's B sample was tested twice: first in a Sydney lab where it was found to be negative and because it didn't concur with the A sample test in Paris, it was sent back to the original lab to be tested a second time. Isn't this contrary to the testing protocols? Also
as stated on site, if the B sample is found to be negative isn't that the end of the testing especially since the B sample is no longer sealed and thus opens up the testing to questions of potential manipulation of the sample. Testing the B sample at the same lab as the A seems contrary to their own protocols and gives the appearance of impropriety.
I thought that Mayo's B sample was tested in, I think, Belgium. It was inconclusive. All the "paperwork" for the test was then sent to Australia, and they concurred that the test was inconclusive. I don't think the actual sample was shipped to Australia and tested again. I may be wrong.

The inconclusive appeared to have been the result of something that happened during testing rather than the sample itself.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
elapid said:
My one comment is that he has listed hematocrit and hemoglobin, but not total protein levels. The change in hematocrit and hemoglobin (which are linked) on day 3 can be due to dehydration. Total protein would also be increased if the cyclist was dehydrated. Without this information, there is no way to tell if the changes in hematocrit and hemoglobin were normal variations or because of some other reason, with dehydration the most common cause.
is total protein part of the passport panels?
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Saline

Angliru said:
Thanks for the link.

Unrelated to my original post is that Iban Mayo's B sample was tested twice: first in a Sydney lab where it was found to be negative and because it didn't concur with the A sample test in Paris, it was sent back to the original lab to be tested a second time. Isn't this contrary to the testing protocols? Also
as stated on site, if the B sample is found to be negative isn't that the end of the testing especially since the B sample is no longer sealed and thus opens up the testing to questions of potential manipulation of the sample. Testing the B sample at the same lab as the A seems contrary to their own protocols and gives the appearance of impropriety.
Put him in a big Euro race with a 45% total body crit and see how he does...
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Here is a LINK to an article about Steven Rooks, who admits that he 'experimented' with EPO at the end of his career.

Is it true that you ever used EPO?

SR: "Yes, but years after the Tour of 1989 ... In 1989 there were rumours about EPO in the peloton. I think the Italians first started using it in 1990, and at one point you were being passed by each and every one. One year you take 5th in LBL, the next year you hopelessly finish 27th."
So then you start using too?

SR: "You could do 2 things. Accept it the way it is, knowing that you wouldn't get any result anymore. Or check out what it was. Everyone talked about it, you are somehow also a little curious. And mind you: it wasn't yet listed, so it wasn't prohibited."
[...]

But there is also something called moral integrity.

SR: "EPO, then, had an entirely different meaning then nowadays. Look at it like this. Suppose a new type of recovery medicine is introduced in the market and which isn't on the list of prohibitted substances. Is that a reason not to use it?"
 
Mar 11, 2009
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I found reading the CN interview with Gripper and the Passport system all very reasonable and I believe as per Alpe's earlier comments that she is probably a bright and very capable woman but...

I am sorry I think this whole thing is a crock of ***. :mad:

I just don't believe that if they are monitoring as they suggest all the pro riders that they can say the sytem is working. Any idiot can see that doping is still endemic in the sport. So either the passport system isn't working or there is considerable manipulation of results that do or don't get shared and who is ultimately thrown to the wolves.

This looks like a shot across the bows to me. They target some lower level riders to give the rest a scare. Either there isn't the appetite to name any of the top 10 or they aren't able to catch them. Either way it's a croc as far as I concerned.

This all feels too much like shovelling fog - loads of effort and no bl00dy difference :mad:
 
Mar 18, 2009
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180mmCrank said:
I found reading the CN interview with Gripper and the Passport system all very reasonable and I believe as per Alpe's earlier comments that she is probably a bright and very capable woman but...

I am sorry I think this whole thing is a crock of ***. :mad:

I just don't believe that if they are monitoring as they suggest all the pro riders that they can say the sytem is working. Any idiot can see that doping is still endemic in the sport. So either the passport system isn't working or there is considerable manipulation of results that do or don't get shared and who is ultimately thrown to the wolves.

This looks like a shot across the bows to me. They target some lower level riders to give the rest a scare. Either there isn't the appetite to name any of the top 10 or they aren't able to catch them. Either way it's a croc as far as I concerned.

This all feels too much like shovelling fog - loads of effort and no bl00dy difference :mad:
+1

My faith in Gripper disappeared in 2008 when the UCI stopped targeting riders like they did in 2007. That only Satana riders were targeted made me suspicious. Giving up the program for this passport scam, which should have allowed the UCI to do an infinitely better job targeting riders, destroyed my trust. The scapegoats that were recently thrown under the bus is the final insult to our intelligence.
 
craig1985 said:
Isn't Peter Luttenberger the moral winner of the 1996 Tour de France? When you look at it like this.
I'll one up you:

1. Bjarne Riis (Den) Doped, confessed.
2. Jan Ullrich (Ger) Doped, but will he ever admit it?
3. Richard Virenque (Fra) Doped
4. Laurent Dufaux (Swi) Doped
5. Peter Luttenberger (Lux) Never again approached that result.
6. Luc Leblanc (Fra) Doped
7. Piotr Ugrumov (Rus) Doped
8. Fernando Escartin (Spa) Probably doped, team Kelme
9. Abraham Olano (Spa) Olano could have been mostly clean. Mapei was pretty adamant about their program, but see Rominger, also a Mapei rider.
10. Tony Rominger (Swi) Many suspicions of doping, connected to Ferrari.
11. Miguel Indurain (Spa) Connected to Padilla and Conconi. Anybody really believe he won 5 straight in the era of EPO without doping?
12. Patrick Jonker (Aus) Could be clean, but rode for ONCE so who knows?
13. Bo Hamburger (Den) Doped
14. Udo Bolts (Ger) Doped
15. Alberto Elli (Ita) Doped
16. Manuel Fernandez Gines (Spa) Best lifetime result, never again placed this high.
17. Leonardo Piepoli (ita) Doped.
18. Laurent Brochard (Fra) Doped, ended up hooked on Pot Belge, though cleaned up.
19. Michele Bartoli (Ita) Connected to Fuentes.
20. Yevgeny Berzin (Rus) Doped

Source. (Speculative, like this place, but just a point)

Pete never rode this well again. However, he mostly just followed wheels in this Tour, and luckily made all the right breaks. I'd really doubt he was clean, but perhaps cleaner. He did steer clear of any doping allegations and all scandals his entire career. So who knows?

I have to admit, in retrospect, that stage 7 to Les Arcs was one of the most dramatic I've ever seen. To see LeBlanc go, Zulle crash, Jalabert bonk, then on the final climb Rominger, Riis, Virenque and Berzin repeatedly attack until Indurain completely cracked - something we had never seen, then Zulle crawl back, and then a series of attacks from the others in the last 1k splitting them up. It was something to see.
 
Agree completely with 180 Crank on Anne Gripper and the UCI.

Angliru said:
Unrelated to my original post is that Iban Mayo's B sample was tested twice....
Remember Heras sample from the 2005 Vuelta? A sample positive for EPO. The results leaked, and he was sunk. Then the B sample...negative, then reviewed, and found to be positive with essentially identical results to the A. CAS rejected his appeal.

Oddly enough, to hear Hears talk now, he is pretty contrite and almost confesses. He's said the only thing that bothers him is that no one will admit that he wasn't treated fairly with the results from his tests. None the less, riding for Liberty and being connected to OP, he was shown in such a negative light, no one would sign him even after his suspension was up. :(

You'll like this part Jack (if you're still following this thread) Heras says Lance was the best leader he ever rode with, and thinks Lance can win his 8th Tour. I'll let others spin that how they like.
 
Of course, it was a whole lot better in 1997.:rolleyes:
1. Jan Ullrich (Ger) TEL 100.30.35
2. Richard Virenque (Fra) FES 9.09
3. Marco Pantani (Ita) MER 14.03
4. Abraham Olano (Spa) BAN 15.55
5. Fernando Escartin (Spa) KEL 20.32
6. Francesco Casagrande (Ita) SAE 22.47
7. Bjarne Riis (Dan) TEL 26.34
8. Jose Maria Jimenez (Spa) BAN 31.17
9. Laurent Dufaux (Swi) FES 31.55
10. Roberto Conti (Ita) MER 32.26
11. Beat Zberg (Swi) MER 35.41
12. Oskar Camenzind (Swi) MAP 35.52
13. Peter Luttenberger (Aut) RAB 45.39

Very interesting to see the Swiss packing the bottom end of this list. Makes him look even more suspicious.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I'll one up you:
...
That top 20 is freaking hilarious.

Although I think your bit about Mapei being a most clean team is a "little" off. The owner eventually got so fed up with doping that he threw his hands up and pulled out of the sport.

Luttenberger also rode for Carrera with Chiapucci, Pantani, and Simeoni. He achieved his best results in 1996, the high point of the unrestricted use of EPO. The following year the 50% rule was imposed.
 
180mmCrank said:
Hey Alpe - shouldn't you be in bed?
I work nights. (Please ignore the fact that I also post early in the morning some days. Yes, sleep is overrated)

Mellow Velo said:
Of course, it was a whole lot better in 1997.:rolleyes:
I like Jiminez from that list. Some great climbing duels between he and Heras in the Vueltas that followed those times.

No one was clean in 1996, sorry. Peter "wins" it for keeping himself out of trouble. I still think if he hadn't pretty much followed Riis and Ullrich, and followed Indurain and Rominger instead, he could have ended up in 25th, instead of 5th.

What a real shame about Mapei. What an incredible powerhouse of a team they were. If anyone wants to know why doping sucks in cycling, look no further than their demise. It was widespread doping in the sport. that caused such a well funded, well run team, to dissolve.
 
Bala Verde said:
Here is a LINK to an article about Steven Rooks, who admits that he 'experimented' with EPO at the end of his career.
Funny you should bring this up. While having a peek at Sud Ouest, for the French nationals course, this was their very latest cycling headline:-
http://www.ouest-france.fr/actu/actu_sport_FluxRSS_-Cyclisme-Dopage-Rooks-prenait-de-l-EPO_14-976197_flux.Htm
The Dutch Steven Rooks recognizes in a book to have taken EPO during his carrièe. It had finished better rock-climber of the Tour de France in 1988.

The confessions multiply themselves about the practices of the end of the years 1980 and beginning of the years 1990. After Laurent Fignon, another racer of the era recognizes take drugs, the Dutch Steven Rooks. Better rock-climber of the Tour de France in 1988 and second of classification general that year, it had imposed on the Alp of Boo. It announces in a book writes by a Dutch journalist to have taken EPO from 1989.


Of course, he famously amitted his PED use on Dutch tv.

Nowhere, too
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Mellow Velo said:
Alp of Boo.
The Alpe of Boo... hahaha

Besides Rooks (PDM / Panasonic / Buckler /Festina Lotus / TVM 87-93), others interviewed were Mathieu Hermans (Caja Rural / SEUR / Lotus Festina / TVM 87-93) and Gert Jakobs ((PDM / SuperConfex / Festina Lotus 87-93))

Just check which people they worked with, and which teams they rode for. All three confessed using EPO.

I always wonder how much Erik Breukink (Panasonic / PDM / ONCE / RAB 86-97) knew and took.
 
Always wondered about Erik too. He looked like the one guy to challenge Lemond in the 1990 and 1991 Tours. But in 1991 he got sick riding for PDM, and in 1992 he, like Lemond, didn't seem to have it anymore. One would have expected that if he got on the EPO bandwagon he would have been finishing ahead of Indurain in 1992 or, at least won a GT.

But his career lasted longer than that, and he did ride for ONCE at the end, so...
 
From Eric vv. A Dutch forumite elsewhere, who has posted a few here:-

It isn't his book, it's a book by Mart Smeets about the '89 Tour (last tour a Dutchman had the Yellow jersey). He interviewed 29 Dutch riders and asked all about using epo. 3 confessed they used it (Rooks, Gert Jakobs and Matthieu Hermans) 7 (or 9 I don't remember) said they are still sorry they didn't and 12 said said they still don't know if they should have.

Also some revealing details about the rivalry between the Dutch teams. The riders riding for Raas apparently all said they weren't riding to win, but to make sure that van Poppel (rode for Post) didn't.
Mart Smeets is the NOS (Dutch tv) cycling presenter.
I love his Tour evening shows. They all sit around, outside, as the Sun slowly sets, sipping on large glasses of red wine, chatting about the day's events........and it's all just about to happen again!
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Mellow Velo said:
I love his Tour evening shows. They all sit around, outside, as the Sun slowly sets, sipping on large glasses of red wine, chatting about the day's events........and it's all just about to happen again!
I wish I could see it here in the US, I also miss Maarten Ducrots commentary... ohh beautiful Holland:eek:
 
Mellow Velo said:
I love his Tour evening shows. They all sit around, outside, as the Sun slowly sets, sipping on large glasses of red wine, chatting about the day's events........and it's all just about to happen again!
We could do our own version. We could have Big Boat on one end constantly interrupting to remind us that "they're all jacked!!!!" some others in the middle and WhiteBoyTrash and Jackhammer on the other end, with a camera constantly on them in the chance we turn into the WWE. :D

Maybe we could get Joe Papp to be a guest?!

:cool:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
elapid said:
Should be. Very easy to do.
that may be but you can hardly fault him for not having it in his numbers if it's not something that's in the passport testing.

it's not relevant.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Always wondered about Erik too. He looked like the one guy to challenge Lemond in the 1990 and 1991 Tours. But in 1991 he got sick riding for PDM, and in 1992 he, like Lemond, didn't seem to have it anymore. One would have expected that if he got on the EPO bandwagon he would have been finishing ahead of Indurain in 1992 or, at least won a GT.

But his career lasted longer than that, and he did ride for ONCE at the end, so...
Different drugs have different effects in different riders. Willy Voet describes this well in his book. That something like oxyglobin for instance had ZERO effect on some riders and made others that were low-end domestiques suddenly fly.

When EPO became mainstream, all the top riders were "washed away" extremely quickly. The change in winners was more sudden than it's ever been....ever. And it's not because the previous winners weren't taking it....(some excepted, of course)
 
Mar 18, 2009
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issoisso said:
When EPO became mainstream, all the top riders were "washed away" extremely quickly. The change in winners was more sudden than it's ever been....ever. And it's not because the previous winners weren't taking it....(some excepted, of course)
There is a good question. Why didn't a rider like Fignon use EPO? He certainly was not a choir boy. He had a good contract and the money to afford the italian doctors. He clearly is still crushed by his loss in 1989. A Fignon on EPO would have been a true terror.

Was it the bad reputation that EPO got when the early experimenters tended to wake up dead?
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
We could do our own version. We could have Big Boat on one end constantly interrupting to remind us that "they're all jacked!!!!" some others in the middle and WhiteBoyTrash and Jackhammer on the other end, with a camera constantly on them in the chance we turn into the WWE. :D

Maybe we could get Joe Papp to be a guest?!

:cool:
Sounds like a hit - count me in - where do I sign up?

Maybe we could have a web site to run along side it with cycling news and stuff...or maybe not :rolleyes:
 

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