Astarloa, De Bonis, Caucchioli, Lobato and Serrano are the 5 blood passport victims

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Mar 18, 2009
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Bala Verde said:
In other words, is 4% an accurate reflection of dopers, or is it a highly inaccurate (too low) number?

So, could the passport be called a success when out of the total pool of riders that are comitted to the passport (all current riders of the teams that contribute to the passport financially), 4-5% are detected?
Too low. And look at the five riders. One ex-world champion who has already been fired by his PT team for abnormal blood values, and the others have got in a few breaks here and there. If these middling professionals were doping and not getting results, then what are the top tier doing? I would be more supportive of these results if the numbers were higher (while it may not be as bad as BigBoat thinks, it definitely is not in the 4-5% range) and they identified some big fish. For example, why wasn't Kohl identified? He has admitted to EPO and blood doping. There's one immediate fail mark for the biological passport.

This really is just a PR exercise. Before CN updated their article on this, they had a quote from Pat McQuaid being very self-congratulatory about what a good job the UCI are doing and how they are leading the fight against doping. What a crock of $hit. These results just prove how delusional they truly are.
 
I think the De Bonis case is the interesting one here adding to the overall confusion of modern doping and detection. De Bonis rode last season with Gerolsteiner, same team as Kohl, Schumacher & Rebellin but he was suspended by the team for a period because of suspicious internal blood values.

Two, maybe more possiblities here:

Gerolsteiner were able to recognise De Bonis unusual blood values and suspect doping but unable to identify the three guys caught which suggests even the blood testing route is not full proof as some on here suggest and backs up the theory that the top guys can buy better doping products and better cover-ups.

or

Gerolsteiner identied the blood values of Kohl, Schumacher or Rebellin as well but deliberately chose to ignore them to protect their big guns.

Either way, things are not looking good for solving the doping problem in cycling.

Another Saunier Duval alumni busted, Milram had suspended Astarloa and once again the rumours surrounding the alleged positve dope results after his World Championship victory in Hamilton 2004 may have been true. People often dismiss rumours and gossip but its hard to ignore when they always seem to be eventually proved true .Caucchioli rode for the allegedly clean Credit Agricole team as for Serrano, another spaniard.

Another sad day for cycling and I agree with many that these gys are just the scapegoats for bigger names.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
I think the De Bonis case is the interesting one here adding to the overall confusion of modern doping and detection. De Bonis rode last season with Gerolsteiner, same team as Kohl, Schumacher & Rebellin but he was suspended by the team for a period because of suspicious internal blood values.

Two, maybe more possiblities here:

Gerolsteiner were able to recognise De Bonis unusual blood values and suspect doping but unable to identify the three guys caught which suggests even the blood testing route is not full proof as some on here suggest and backs up the theory that the top guys can buy better doping products and better cover-ups.

or

Gerolsteiner identied the blood values of Kohl, Schumacher or Rebellin as well but deliberately chose to ignore them to protect their big guns.

Either way, things are not looking good for solving the doping problem in cycling.

Another Saunier Duval alumni busted, Milram had suspended Astarloa and once again the rumours surrounding the alleged positve dope results after his World Championship victory in Hamilton 2004 may have been true. People often dismiss rumours and gossip but its hard to ignore when they always seem to be eventually proved true .Caucchioli rode for the allegedly clean Credit Agricole team as for Serrano, another spaniard.

Another sad day for cycling and I agree with many that these gys are just the scapegoats for bigger names.
De Bonis, along with Moletta (sacked by Gerolsteiner after being investigated by CONI) and Gatto were all signed solely due to Rebellín's reccomendation.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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The teams with dismissed riders just got a bit of help when it comes to lawsuits about unfair dismissal. As usual, following the money reveals much.

Nice bit of spin for the UCI to take credit for recognizing those who were using CERA...even though they had nothing to do with busting them and adamantly refused to test stored samples for the drug.

The fix has been in since the summer of 2008 when the UCI, the ASO, and the riders made a grand bargain to limit the fight against doping to prevent further financial damage to the sport. The green light has been given, and it is party like it's 1999 at the Tour this year.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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To illustrate, 2002 Giro results

1 Paolo Savoldelli Italy Index Alexia 89h 22' 42"
2 Tyler Hamilton United States Team CSC Tiscali 1' 41"
3 Pietro Caucchioli Italy Alessio 2' 12"
4 Juan Manuel Garate Spain Lampre-Daikin 3' 14"
5 Pavel Tonkov Russia Lampre-Daikin 5' 34"
6 Aitor González Spain Kelme-Costa Blanca 6' 54"
7 Georg Totschnig Austria Gerolsteiner 7' 02"
8 Fernando Escartín Spain Team Coast 7' 07"
9 Rik Verbrugghe Belgium Lotto-Adecco 9' 36"
10 Dario Frigo Italy Tacconi Sport-Emmegi 11' 50"

and the WC 2003

Men's Road Race
1 Igor Astarloa Spain 6h30'19"
2 Alejandro Valverde Spain 6h30'24"
3 Peter van Petegem Belgium s.t.
Men's Time Trial
1) David Millar United Kingdom 51'17"
2) Michael Rogers Australia + 25"
3) Uwe Peschel Germany s.t.

To respond to pmcg76, ot seems that riders, since they are on the same team, exchange information, tips, tricks, techniques and names of corrupted/corruptable medical doctors. Perhaps they even get a discount from their doctor if they bring in a 'referral'! It wouldn't surprise me if all of this flies under the radar of the best organised team with the best intentions. Perhaps they don't even detect anything using their internal controls. If 9 out of 10 times samples beat official tests, how can we expect teams to have developed even better tests?

On the other hand, it could also be that they choose to ignore certain small anomalies, while giving the boot to the ones that could cause a positive after a real race. It's a win-win situation. To the public it seems they have a great anti-doping program, while they continue to win races with 'undetectable' riders...
 
Apr 9, 2009
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elapid said:
Too low. And look at the five riders. One ex-world champion who has already been fired by his PT team for abnormal blood values, and the others have got in a few breaks here and there. If these middling professionals were doping and not getting results, then what are the top tier doing?
Remember, the official spin line is that "only a few has-beens and also-rans dope, cycling's great champions don't NEED to dope because they are great champions." Never mind that the entire Tour podium for the past 10 years has been busted for doping. This is what illustrates just how much of a farce the UCI has become - they still cling to this blatantly idiotic party line even when reality plainly states otherwise.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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This msg board is silly. I don't understand how you guys can watch cycling, since it seems you think everyone is cheeting, you may as well watch WWE(wrestling), at least there you know its fake. I thought when this msg. board was created it would get some good cycling racing disucssion, instead it's 85% drug talk.

I myself let the riders fail tests, if they fail they are doping, if they pass they are clean. It's very black and white, but you guys love to talk about the grey area so much, it become a grey area the size of the united states, with pass/fail areas the size of city block.

watch the races and enjoy them, quit focusing on who is cheating or not, it will get you no where. I'm off to ride, and hopefully 6 months from now when I come back here, the tone of the board will change, but I doubt it.

Peace.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
mikeNphilly said:
This msg board is silly. I don't understand how you guys can watch cycling, since it seems you think everyone is cheeting, you may as well watch WWE(wrestling), at least there you know its fake. I thought when this msg. board was created it would get some good cycling racing disucssion, instead it's 85% drug talk.

I myself let the riders fail tests, if they fail they are doping, if they pass they are clean. It's very black and white, but you guys love to talk about the grey area so much, it become a grey area the size of the united states, with pass/fail areas the size of city block.

watch the races and enjoy them, quit focusing on who is cheating or not, it will get you no where. I'm off to ride, and hopefully 6 months from now when I come back here, the tone of the board will change, but I doubt it.

Peace.
And you posted on the doping content of other people's posts......that is all you got for the next 6 months? Thats it? Dang. Have a nice ride!
 
mikeNphilly said:
This msg board is silly. I don't understand how you guys can watch cycling, since it seems you think everyone is cheeting, you may as well watch WWE(wrestling), at least there you know its fake. I thought when this msg. board was created it would get some good cycling racing disucssion, instead it's 85% drug talk.

I myself let the riders fail tests, if they fail they are doping, if they pass they are clean. It's very black and white, but you guys love to talk about the grey area so much, it become a grey area the size of the united states, with pass/fail areas the size of city block.

watch the races and enjoy them, quit focusing on who is cheating or not, it will get you no where. I'm off to ride, and hopefully 6 months from now when I come back here, the tone of the board will change, but I doubt it.

Peace.
Whenever I read a message like this I get a little suspicious of who the sender might be. (?)
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
Whenever I read a message like this I get a little suspicious of who the sender might be. (?)
I like that after throwing a bunch of bombs, he ends his post with "Peace."
 
mikeNphilly said:
This msg board is silly. I don't understand how you guys can watch cycling, since it seems you think everyone is cheeting, you may as well watch WWE(wrestling), at least there you know its fake. I thought when this msg. board was created it would get some good cycling racing disucssion, instead it's 85% drug talk.
Look where you posted! But hey, can't beat 'em, join 'em! You're welcome to post some more! Stick around long enough, and you'll be just like us!

85%? Sounds about like the amount of riders doping! Makes sense then, doesn't it?

There are other threads on here that aren't about doping, and I think you'll find a lot of us post on them.

As to how we can watch, I think BroDeal said it best when saying it's a lot like watching a teen slasher movie. You just know the killer is going to spring up and hack up the hapless teenagers, but not how, or when. So you sit back, guess, and watch for the gore. And you know in the back (front?) of your head that when the sheriff says that "the killer is dead", that it's not true, and he's is going to spring back to life at any moment and start his reign of terror all over!
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
You just know the killer is going to spring up and hack up the hapless teenagers, but not how, or when. So you sit back, guess, and watch for the gore. And you know in the back (front?) of your head that when the sheriff says that "the killer is dead", that it's not true, and he's is going to spring back to life at any moment and start his reign of terror all over!
Very apt in the Rasmussen case when Davide Cassani said 'I know what you did last summer'
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Bala Verde said:
Very apt in the Rasmussen case when Davide Cassani said 'I know what you did last summer'
I heard Cassani saw him on Friday the 13th, a couple of weeks before Halloween, somewhere on Elm Street. Cassani screamed when he saw him. Rasmussen insisted his name was not Michael, it was Jason. His final destination was Cherry Falls, but this all may be an urban legend.
 
May 1, 2009
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No fast guys are doping, only slow ones. So there you go kids. Conclusive scientific evidence. Doping actually makes you slower. :S

Such a farce. Not only have the 'busted' some minor guys, half of these guys aren't even riding anymore!
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BroDeal said:
I heard Cassani saw him on Friday the 13th, a couple of weeks before Halloween, somewhere on Elm Street. Cassani screamed when he saw him. Rasmussen insisted his name was not Michael, it was Jason. His final destination was Cherry Falls, but this all may be an urban legend.
Davide Krueger is still chasing Rasmussen in his dreams...
 
Apr 19, 2009
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feltet.dk just posted a quote by Anne Gripper saying that these five cases are just a beginning. Translating to something like "we expect new cases to be opened."
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
mikeNphilly said:
This msg board is silly. I don't understand how you guys can watch cycling, since it seems you think everyone is cheeting, you may as well watch WWE(wrestling), at least there you know its fake. I thought when this msg. board was created it would get some good cycling racing disucssion, instead it's 85% drug talk.
yep.... sadly that's pretty much it.

a few new names come and go but most of the venom is the same handful of people.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
yep.... sadly that's pretty much it.

a few new names come and go but most of the venom is the same handful of people.
Yet the chief tea bagger remains, much like the smell from a bad fart.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
jackhammer111 said:
yep.... sadly that's pretty much it.

a few new names come and go but most of the venom is the same handful of people.
Says the internet tough guy who challenges people to come to his house to fight.

When you gonna grow a set and offer to shoulder the burden of travel expenses?
 
I'd say a LOT of research and information comes from a few very dedicated people, making an effort to spread that information to those who are not informed. Perhaps it's a waste of time to some people, but I've spent over 25 years in cycling (and XC skiing) to one degree or another, as a racer (not very good), and dabbling in coaching a tiny bit. One of my best friends is an MD/PhD in genetic research, Mrs. Alpe went through quite a bit of science courses in organic chemistry, bio, physics, etc. training to be a vet (since moved on to other career) her best friend is a nurse. Another friend's wife is a physician. I once considered an education in exercise physiology, but life got in the way. I know a few people that have doped, and I'm a sponge and book worm. I absorb what I can from books, the web, from friends, and other sources, and fact check what I can, often with these people, and try to present that to others in as concise, and logical of manner as possible.

Any "venom" I have comes from the information I research translating into cheating to the level that's unfair, and the corruption behind it. It's not the other way around. I don't sit here all plssed off at one athlete or another for some personal reason, and then somehow manufacture some nonsense in order to justify that mindset.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Bala Verde said:
To illustrate, 2002 Giro results

1 Paolo Savoldelli Italy Index Alexia 89h 22' 42"
2 Tyler Hamilton United States Team CSC Tiscali 1' 41"
3 Pietro Caucchioli Italy Alessio 2' 12"
4 Juan Manuel Garate Spain Lampre-Daikin 3' 14"
5 Pavel Tonkov Russia Lampre-Daikin 5' 34"
6 Aitor González Spain Kelme-Costa Blanca 6' 54"
7 Georg Totschnig Austria Gerolsteiner 7' 02"
8 Fernando Escartín Spain Team Coast 7' 07"
9 Rik Verbrugghe Belgium Lotto-Adecco 9' 36"
10 Dario Frigo Italy Tacconi Sport-Emmegi 11' 50"

and the WC 2003

Men's Road Race
1 Igor Astarloa Spain 6h30'19"
2 Alejandro Valverde Spain 6h30'24"
3 Peter van Petegem Belgium s.t.
Men's Time Trial
1) David Millar United Kingdom 51'17"
2) Michael Rogers Australia + 25"
3) Uwe Peschel Germany s.t.

To respond to pmcg76, ot seems that riders, since they are on the same team, exchange information, tips, tricks, techniques and names of corrupted/corruptable medical doctors. Perhaps they even get a discount from their doctor if they bring in a 'referral'! It wouldn't surprise me if all of this flies under the radar of the best organised team with the best intentions. Perhaps they don't even detect anything using their internal controls. If 9 out of 10 times samples beat official tests, how can we expect teams to have developed even better tests?

On the other hand, it could also be that they choose to ignore certain small anomalies, while giving the boot to the ones that could cause a positive after a real race. It's a win-win situation. To the public it seems they have a great anti-doping program, while they continue to win races with 'undetectable' riders...
Bro I'll prove to you very briefly how we know almost the entire top 100 are blood doped with their own packed red cells from the crypto freezer....

Astorloza kicked everybody's *** at the 2003 world championships.... EVERYBODY WAS JACKED in 2003 with no rectic counts or testing for homologous blood refills.... Not to mention riders still had jacked iron stores a couple years before (on epo) and nothing was done. With the "level" field of everyone on epo Astorloza thrived. $hit you could blood dope with cow blood, or somebody else's blood with no cross checks and you never ever risked a positive...

Pietro Caucchioli finished 3rd at the Giro in 02 where everybody was clearly doped (2002.) He rode well throughout his career (during the era of limitless jacked crits with epo). Now in the "clean" era everybody kicks his doped a$$... He's a "cheater" who won BIG in the past but now blood doped to the gills and he cant get jack except for a black list?

2001 – Alessio
9th, Overall, Giro d'Italia
1st, Stage 8, (Montecatini Terme - Reggio Emilia, 185 km)
1st, Stage 17, (Sanremo - Sanremo, 119 km)
2002 – Alessio
1st Vuelta Ciclista a Aragón, stage 3
3rd, Overall, Giro d'Italia
2003 – Alessio
1st Giro della Provincia di Lucca, stage 3
26th, Overall, Giro d'Italia
2005 – Crédit Agricole
8th, Overall, Giro d'Italia
36th, Overall, Tour de France
2006 – Crédit Agricole
Stages 9-11, Orange Jersey, Mountains Classification leader Vuelta a España
9th, Overall, Dauphiné Libéré
16th, Overall, Tour de France
 

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