At what point does placing in a GT become irrelevant?

[Carols]

Overall placing in a GT carries more WT points than a stage win through placing 14. So I'm going to go with top 14

 

[barmaher]

yes in the first week when he was still placed well and the vuelta in may?

My mistake. Clearly I meant the Giro.

I think it is ridiculous to claim that 4th in a debut GT (for instance) is not worth caring about.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Overall placing in a GT carries more WT points than a stage win through placing 14. So I'm going to go with top 14

Crazy system really.
A much steeper drop off curve needed for GT placement points.

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

It depends on how the race pans out, what impact riders getting time from breakaways has on the standings. The 2010 Giro is a extreme example of that. Sometimes a 15th place might indicate something, sometimes it is just a lucky rider.

 

[barmaher]

Overall placing in a GT carries more WT points than a stage win through placing 14. So I'm going to go with top 14

Maybe in Grand Tours, they should list half the stages as being worth double points to the others. So in instead of 20,10,6,4,2....why not go 30,15,12,8,4 for ten stages and 15,8,5,3,2 for the other stages.

The big stages might be all the mountain stages, the ITT and maybe Paris and one or two weekend sprints.

Or scrap that. Who cares about the UCI points system?

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Purely results oriented, I'd say anything outside a top 10 is irrelevant. However, trying to hold on to 12th or 14th can be a good aim for a young rider so it's not entirely black and white.

 

[Carols]

Or scrap that. Who cares about the UCI points system?

WT teams and teams trying to become WT care

Plus it makes riders with WT points worth more in the marketplace, so I'd imagine they care also.

 

[del1962]

WT teams and teams trying to become WT care

Riders looking for a ride next season also care.

 

[barmaher]

Oh I know they care.

I am just wondering aloud whether we should care.

 

[Afrank]

after the third place. any other place, who cares

The riders care, and you would care too if it was some young Colombian competing in his first grand tour and got say a top 10.

 

[El Pistolero]

For a big rider, everything but a win is irrelevant.

 

[barmaher]

This is true, if you categorise a "big rider" in current terms as Contador, Wiggins, Nibali, Schleck and Froome.

Indeed, I think that Schleck would be happy if he podiumed the Giro this year. And maybe I think Evans would be happy with a podium.

But for all the other 500+ professional cyclists, top 3 in a GT is not irrelevant. And for almost all of them top 10 is not irrelevant.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

The riders care, and you would care too if it was some young Colombian competing in his first grand tour and got say a top 10.

no I wouldn't. when have you heard me about henao's 9th place last year, only about him doing well in a first gt. but result wise anything but podium is not worth mentioning. if a rider is young or a first gt then it's great indication and only idiot riders care who lack any mentality to win races.

 

[Afrank]

no I wouldn't. when have you heard me about henao's 9th place last year, only about him doing well in a first gt. but result wise anything but podium is not worth mentioning. if a rider is young or a first gt then it's great indication and only idiot riders care who lack any mentality to win races.

Fair enough, I disagree with you however that anything other than a podium isn't worth mentioning; not every rider is capable of winning the biggest races. For some a top 10 is the best they can do. Depending on the rider I would say a top 10 result does tell you about the riders capabilities, and thus is worth mentioning.

Also I believe a rider can care about getting a top 10 in some races and still have the mentality to win other races.

 

[Caruut]

Depends on the size of the team they are riding for - for a small domestic team at the Giro, Tour or Vuelta, I think there is nothing to be ashamed about targeting a top 10 (or even top 20) placing with their best GC rider while others on their team go for breaks and stage wins.

 

[the asian]

A stage win is better than any place except the top 3.

It's a pity with this stupid World Tour points system that riders try to defend meaningless GC positions rather than attempting a stage win.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

A stage win is better than any place except the top 3.

It's a pity with this stupid World Tour points system that riders try to defend meaningless GC positions rather than attempting a stage win.

it's always been that way. I hate it when people have no clue about history. back with worldcups and trade teams and old uci rankings you got even less points for stage wins in gt's and nobody complained

you are correct though, a stage win in a gt is more important than anything but top 3

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Fair enough, I disagree with you however that anything other than a podium isn't worth mentioning; not every rider is capable of winning the biggest races. For some a top 10 is the best they can do. Depending on the rider I would say a top 10 result does tell you about the riders capabilities, and thus is worth mentioning.

Also I believe a rider can care about getting a top 10 in some races and still have the mentality to win other races.

if you can do a top ten in a gt then you can also win a stage. a top ten place means nothing, a stage win everything

 

[Afrank]

Agree, a stage win means more than a top 10. I see meaning in both though.

 

[Caruut]

if you can do a top ten in a gt then you can also win a stage. a top ten place means nothing, a stage win everything

You can, yes, but will you? A rider in 8th place after a few mountain stages and a TT with, say, one or two mountains and a TT left to go has a pretty good chance of going top 10. To win a stage they are either going to have to win the TT (not realistic for most riders), break away from the favourites on the final climb (not realistic for most riders if they're going properly) or throw away their good placing and hope they can get a win from a break.

A rider sitting in 8th has a great chance to get a top-10 finish, and is very unlikely to get a stage win without throwing away their placing. If they do throw away their placing, the odds are still very much against them. To me it's all about maximising your expected results. Even if you think a stage win is twice as prestigious as a top-10, I think that if your in 8th coming into the last few stages, you're far more than twice as likely to get the top-10, so your average result is better. Playing the percentages.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

a rider sitting in 8th should just lose time on purpose if he can't get away in any other way, like rasmussen used to do. rasmussen never rode a serious gc, but everyone remembers him, who do you remember more? soler or the 15th 10 places or so of valjavec...

 

[deValtos]

Only saying the top 3 is better than a stage win is extreme when you consider there are about 8-15 different stage winners each tour, yet only 3 on a podium. i.e it's much much easier to win a stage.

I would argue that riders like Robert Gesink & Jurgen Van Den Broeck who are solid contenders for top5/top10 in the TDF but without stage wins have a lot more notoriety (because of their good placings) than some TDF recent stage winners like Riblon, Ivanov, Dessel, Arvesen, Efimkin etc

Also depends on whose perspective which is more important (fan, rider, sponsor, team manager etc). I enjoy watching riders from position 3-10 GC on multiple days fighting for their place than watching a break of average/good domestiques contend for a stage victory and so usually remember them more. I also think you have to be a stronger rider to take say 4th place in the tour than win a stage.

I ofc understand that a lot of you don't care past the top 3 ...
What about top 5 ? Any takers ?

 

[RedheadDane]

I think I'll go in with the it sorta depends on the rider/situation crowd. For Contador anything out of Top-5 is 'MEH'. For a neo-pro top-20 can be cool.
And I may be biased, but I think CAS's 14th place in TdF last year was pretty cool.

a rider sitting in 8th should just lose time on purpose if he can't get away in any other way, like rasmussen used to do. rasmussen never rode a serious gc, but everyone remembers him, who do you remember more? soler or the 15th 10 places or so of valjavec...

Well... he did attempt to podium in 2005, I think we all remember how that went...

 

[deValtos]

a rider sitting in 8th should just lose time on purpose if he can't get away in any other way, like rasmussen used to do. rasmussen never rode a serious gc, but everyone remembers him, who do you remember more? soler or the 15th 10 places or so of valjavec...

Out of all people why would you pick rasmussen to support your point ? Yes the guy who held the yellow jersey in 2007 with a lead of over 3 minutes who would have gone on to win it before he was kicked out unceremoniously in a massive scandal we still get stories about today. He also got a lot of attention for his epic time trial in 05, fighting to be on the podium. And this shows that winning stages gets you remembered more than a good GC place how ?

 

[hfer07]

After thinking a bit about this topic last night, Its irrelevant too for a GC rider to seek a top 10 spot & get unnoticed for the entire race, rather than having a rider like Voeckler winning two stages & the KOM jersey making top 30.

LuLu is another good example of that approach-he well knows he has to struggle throughout the entire race to attempt a meanless top 10 & be a ghost-not worthed at all-so he prefers to hunt for stage wins & get the reward of doing it.