Athelete of the decade

[ImmaculateKadence]

I wonder if all the people asserting that golf isn't a sport and its participants aren't athletes have ever played a round. I'll agree that one doesn't have to be physicaly gifted to play a round of recreational golf, but the pros walk the course. While it doesn't require the physical exertion of other sports, it is still physically and mentally taxing. I'm no golfer but can still appreciate what it takes to play a complete a tournament, let alone to be as dominant as Tiger has been the past ten years.

It's impossible to compare athletes from different sports, especially when one of those athletes is an endurance athlete (Lance) and the other uses short bursts of quickness and agility (Fed, Tiger, etc). It requires different types of training and conditioning. Neither is superior; they are just different. However, If you want to compare athletes that have had the most impact on their respective sports this decade, then I think they got it right. Federer didn't start winning until 03; Lance won 6 of TdFs this decade and retired (only to return). Tiger, on the other hand, has been dominant the entire decade.

 

[Publicus]

Never claimed to be, only a fan, if the odds are right, I know where my money will be

//should move the thread to cafe as no one wants to talk about cycling (not even Lance!)

I agree with that. This is more of a cafe discussion.

 

[Publicus]

That's just wrong. Boxing is a sport, one of the greatest and most storied sports in history. In fact wasn't Muhammad Ali voted by pretty much everyone as the greatest sportsman of the 20th century? AP, BBC, Sports Illustrated? I think he was. He lit the Olympic Flame in 1996 for crying out loud.

It is one of the toughest sports I've ever participated in--if it not the toughest. Cycling is up there as well. American football is a distant third.

 

[Polkadot09]

So who's better than Pac-man? I imagine you'll argue Mayweather, and I'll agree that Mayweather is more skilled (in fact I'm heavily leaning Mayweather in their fight) but Pretty Boy Floyd simply hasn't proved he's the best in the ring. He beat some great guys in Corrales and Gennaro Hernadez in his early days (which is how he rose to be #1 P4P) but he arguably lost to Castillo in their first fight, and ever since the Castillo fights he's not fought truly challenging opponents. He didn't fight Acelino Freitas, he didn't fight Joel Casamayor, he didn't fight Paul Spadafora, he didn't fight Kostya Tszyu, all fights that could've been made and all fights he would've probably won. But you said it yourself somewhere else, to be the best you gotta beat the best.

And his competition since he's been a welterweight has been vomitous. Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah, Juan Carlos Baldomir? He didn't fight Margarito, even though the fight was thrown in his lap, he didn't fight the likes of Cotto, or Mosley. Credit for moving up to light-middle to face DLH, but that's not the type of fight that your legacy should rest on.

If he'd beaten but two or three of the guys I'd mentioned, I don't think I could argue against you, but Mayweather simply hasn't proven himself against worthy opposition. Which the Pac-Monster has. He's beaten a host of top guys, at numerous weight divisions. And who cares if he lost to Morales once, he went on to win twice. Noone cares about the first loss if you revenge yourself, especially twice. I don't care about one loss if it came to a great guy. If Pretty Boy Floyd had fought Acelino Freitas, Joel Casamayor, Leonard Dorin, Paul Spadafora, Stevie Johnston, Kostya Tszyu, Miguel Cotto, Antonio Margarito and Shane Mosley noone would care if he lost to one of those guys if he beat all the others. He would be the undeniable greatest fighter since Ali, maybe even Sugar Ray Robinson. But he did not.

Mayweather has everything you'd need to become one of the all time greats, except the record.

Leonard Dorin, Paul Spadafora, Stevie Johnston - PBF could have fought all of these in one night and won. No where near his class. Kostya would have been the best man to give Floyd a torrid time. I agree he should have fought Cotto, Mosley and Margarito. Castillo beat him once in my opinion and as far as Manny goes, love him to bits, really exciting. But when he comes up against a clever fighter like Marquez (who beat him twice) he gets found out. The only thing that makes this fight interesting is that PBF had a nightmare against Judah for the first 5-6 rounds. Manny is also a southpaw and hits hard with fast hands. Could be a cracker or another PBF shut out. I'm hoping for a cracker.
Nice to see some guys on here who are into their boxing.
To see some great vids on youtube - go to Gorrilla productions page, he has done some of the best highlight vids I have ever seen, well worth a look if you like your boxing, well worth a look if you don't, it might change your mind.
Best athlete of the decade - can only be Rodger.

 

[kurtinsc]

It's the classic argument of how you define "sport" or even "athlete"--by more raw physiological output or by motor skills?

Even many athletes who would be considered more "pure" athletic performers--cyclists, runners, etc--are often deficient in some important areas such as muscle strength and flexibility.

Anyone remember the old "superstars" competitions? Events ranged from a cycling, swimming, lifting and running to bowling and sinking hoops. (Also noteworthy that a soccer player-Kyle Rote Jr--won the first competition over all of the better known professional football, basketball and baseball players).

There will never be a consensus opinion as to what constitutes a "best athlete".

I do remember it. Herschel Walker won it twice.

But Herschel was insane... professional football player, all american college track star (just missed making the 4x100 relay team), olympic bobsled competitor, trained with ballet and was a blackbelt in tae kwan do.

An interesting fact about Rote... he was actually attending college on an American Football scholarship. He broke his leg... so was forced to play soccer. He was really a US football athelete playing soccer due to injury.

 

[Polkadot09]

That's just wrong. Boxing is a sport, one of the greatest and most storied sports in history. In fact wasn't Muhammad Ali voted by pretty much everyone as the greatest sportsman of the 20th century? AP, BBC, Sports Illustrated? I think he was. He lit the Olympic Flame in 1996 for crying out loud.

+1
I agree totally, it is the greatest sport ever, just something special about 2 guys beating the hell out of each other. Watch Hagler Hearnes, Morales Barrera 1 and Castillo Corrales 1. Incredible fights that I can watch time and time again.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

My list looks something like

1. Tiger Woods
2. Roger Federer
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Lance Armstrong
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Michael Phelps

 

[Publicus]

So who's better than Pac-man? I imagine you'll argue Mayweather, and I'll agree that Mayweather is more skilled (in fact I'm heavily leaning Mayweather in their fight) but Pretty Boy Floyd simply hasn't proved he's the best in the ring. He beat some great guys in Corrales and Gennaro Hernadez in his early days (which is how he rose to be #1 P4P) but he arguably lost to Castillo in their first fight, and ever since the Castillo fights he's not fought truly challenging opponents. He didn't fight Acelino Freitas, he didn't fight Joel Casamayor, he didn't fight Paul Spadafora, he didn't fight Kostya Tszyu, all fights that could've been made and all fights he would've probably won. But you said it yourself somewhere else, to be the best you gotta beat the best.

And his competition since he's been a welterweight has been vomitous. Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah, Juan Carlos Baldomir? He didn't fight Margarito, even though the fight was thrown in his lap, he didn't fight the likes of Cotto, or Mosley. Credit for moving up to light-middle to face DLH, but that's not the type of fight that your legacy should rest on.

If he'd beaten but two or three of the guys I'd mentioned, I don't think I could argue against you, but Mayweather simply hasn't proven himself against worthy opposition. Which the Pac-Monster has. He's beaten a host of top guys, at numerous weight divisions. And who cares if he lost to Morales once, he went on to win twice. Noone cares about the first loss if you revenge yourself, especially twice. I don't care about one loss if it came to a great guy. If Pretty Boy Floyd had fought Acelino Freitas, Joel Casamayor, Leonard Dorin, Paul Spadafora, Stevie Johnston, Kostya Tszyu, Miguel Cotto, Antonio Margarito and Shane Mosley noone would care if he lost to one of those guys if he beat all the others. He would be the undeniable greatest fighter since Ali, maybe even Sugar Ray Robinson. But he did not.

Mayweather has everything you'd need to become one of the all time greats, except the record.

You know I think that's a pretty decent amount of analysis. Here's the problem Pacman's greatness is built on a legacy of beating fighters who you just label as weak or were generally dismissive about. Pacman's recent signature bouts are wins over De la Hoya, Hatton and Cotto. Taking them in reverse order: Cotto's claim to fame is he went to war with Margarito (he of the loaded gloves) and KO'd Judah. Judah's claim to fame is that he got starched by Tszyu (which was one of Tszyu's claims to fame) but came back to become the linear welterweight champion. Hatton: his claim to fame is that he made Tszyu quit on his stool. Tszyu's claim to fame was noted above. De la Hoya's record speaks for itself.

Floyd fought DLH at 154lbs. No catch weight. Shouldn't have been a split decision, but he got the victory. Hatton: KO. Cotto: Bob Arum wouldn't bring him within 1,000 feet of Floyd because (1) they hate each other (Arum and Mayweather) and (2) he knew Floyd's skill level.

As for the other fights that could have been made, but weren't: that's boxing my friend. Floyd tried unsuccessfully to get a fight with Mosley for 10 years. DLH never fought Winky Wright (one of the most avoided men in boxing at the time). No one wanted to fight Margarito (if you saw him walking around, you wouldn't want to fight him either)'/same with Williams. The equation is always the same in determining when/if a fight occurs: does the reward justify the risk associated with the fight. That's not to justify anything, just explaining the reality of boxing--it's not solely the fighter's decision who he fights (promoter, managers, trainers, etc. all have a vested interest in the boxer taking the fights that offer the most reward for the least risk). Don't believe me: look at Pacman's last 3 fights. That's not murder's row either (Hatton--coming off at TKO from Mayweather--incredibly short arms and literally JUMPS into punches (it's how he got KO in both fights); Cotto--brutalized by Margarito, poor defense (absorbs blows to get in and give body shots); barely survived against Joshua Clottey; DLH--hadn't fought since he lost to Mayweather and stupidly agreed to come in at 147 where he hadn't fought in a decade). Is it any wonder that he looked great?


We can take this to PM if you like. I can talk boxing all day long.

 

[Publicus]

Leonard Dorin, Paul Spadafora, Stevie Johnston - PBF could have fought all of these in one night and won. No where near his class. Kostya would have been the best man to give Floyd a torrid time. I agree he should have fought Cotto, Mosley and Margarito. Castillo beat him once in my opinion and as far as Manny goes, love him to bits, really exciting. But when he comes up against a clever fighter like Marquez (who beat him twice) he gets found out. The only thing that makes this fight interesting is that PBF had a nightmare against Judah for the first 5-6 rounds. Manny is also a southpaw and hits hard with fast hands. Could be a cracker or another PBF shut out. I'm hoping for a cracker.
Nice to see some guys on here who are into their boxing.
To see some great vids on youtube - go to Gorrilla productions page, he has done some of the best highlight vids I have ever seen, well worth a look if you like your boxing, well worth a look if you don't, it might change your mind.
Best athlete of the decade - can only be Rodger.

Actually it was the first 3 rounds. Most of Floyd's go that way. He typically uses the first 3 rounds to get the fighter's timing, strategy/game plan down. Then in the middle rounds neutralizes them. And in the championship rounds, starts walking them down.

Arum refused to put Cotto in the ring with him. Mosley didn't want to fight him for 10 years (the last time was right before the Mayweather DLH fight was made; claimed he need to have some dental work done).

 

[Moondance]

Leonard Dorin, Paul Spadafora, Stevie Johnston - PBF could have fought all of these in one night and won. No where near his class. Kostya would have been the best man to give Floyd a torrid time. I agree he should have fought Cotto, Mosley and Margarito. Castillo beat him once in my opinion and as far as Manny goes, love him to bits, really exciting. But when he comes up against a clever fighter like Marquez (who beat him twice) he gets found out. The only thing that makes this fight interesting is that PBF had a nightmare against Judah for the first 5-6 rounds. Manny is also a southpaw and hits hard with fast hands. Could be a cracker or another PBF shut out. I'm hoping for a cracker.

Probably, but they still needed to happen. And I notice that you didn't included Casamayor or Freitas. PBF v. Casamayor would probably have been a snoozefest, but Floyd would've inched it out I think, and PBF v. Freitas could've been a great fight, but Floyd shies away from guys who can really put on a beating (I still think he could've outpointed Freitas). Still if he could've beaten those guys why didn't he? Isn't that the point of being as great as Floyd claims himself to be?

 

[Polkadot09]

Actually it was the first 3 rounds. Most of Floyd's go that way. He typically uses the first 3 rounds to get the fighter's timing, strategy/game plan down. Then in the middle rounds neutralizes them. And in the championship rounds, starts walking them down.

Arum refused to put Cotto in the ring with him. Mosley didn't want to fight him for 10 years (the last time was right before the Mayweather DLH fight was made; claimed he need to have some dental work done).

I was perhaps a little kind on Zab, if he had the same discipline as PBF, he could have been a great, although he is a bit chinny - see Kostya V Zab, funny as hell. Agree with all the points about PBF's fights, they have all been like that.
I agree as well that is was Arum who stopped Cotto fighting him and SSM should have taken the challenge a long time ago.

 

[Moondance]

You know I think that's a pretty decent amount of analysis. Here's the problem Pacman's greatness is built on a legacy of beating fighters who you just label as weak or were generally dismissive about. Pacman's recent signature bouts are wins over De la Hoya, Hatton and Cotto. Taking them in reverse order: Cotto's claim to fame is he went to war with Margarito (he of the loaded gloves) and KO'd Judah. Judah's claim to fame is that he got starched by Tszyu (which was one of Tszyu's claims to fame) but came back to become the linear welterweight champion. Hatton: his claim to fame is that he made Tszyu quit on his stool. Tszyu's claim to fame was noted above. De la Hoya's record speaks for itself.

Floyd fought DLH at 154lbs. No catch weight. Shouldn't have been a split decision, but he got the victory. Hatton: KO. Cotto: Bob Arum wouldn't bring him within 1,000 feet of Floyd because (1) they hate each other (Arum and Mayweather) and (2) he knew Floyd's skill level.

We can take this to PM if you like. I can talk boxing all day long.

You forget the first Barrera fight. Until the Cotto victory I still counted it as Pac-Man's greatest success. The Baby-Faced Assassin was white hot going into that fight. He was still riding the wave of crushing Prince Naseem and revenging the horrible decision against Morales. And Pacquiao dominated him and got Barrera's corner to stop the fight. Barrera could probably have hung on to the final bell (he was ****ed about the stoppage) but still the only time he was stopped in his prime.

I remember that fight fondly. Until that evening Pacquiao was just another name, an unpronouncable, unwritable one at that. Been in love with him ever since. Barrera was considered a top P4P guy at the time too, don't forget. The Paccy was robbed in the first Marquez fight, and dropped a close, but fair decision to Morales. And since then he's been unstoppable, including (IMO, and I know not many agree with me) in the 2nd Marquez fight, where I agree with the judges for once.

I don't care for his De la Hoya and Hatton fights. Give me Barrera, give me Marquez, give me Morales..... Give me the real Mexicans i guess.

EDIT: ZOMG!?!?! They bleep out "p-i-s-s-e-d"? What ****ing babies these cyclingnews folk are.

 

[Polkadot09]

Probably, but they still needed to happen. And I notice that you didn't included Casamayor or Freitas. PBF v. Casamayor would probably have been a snoozefest, but Floyd would've inched it out I think, and PBF v. Freitas could've been a great fight, but Floyd shies away from guys who can really put on a beating (I still think he could've outpointed Freitas). Still if he could've beaten those guys why didn't he? Isn't that the point of being as great as Floyd claims himself to be?

Agreed, I wish he would have fought everyone, then he could lay claim to that title. No question he has the skills, just wish he had fought the best. I am hoping Manny lands early and gives him a fright. Then jumps all over him ,he won't know what hit him. The problem is Manny is too easy to hit and I just can't see him winning, even though I want him to. Manny's record is far more imprssive, just look at the names. I was never convinced with Freitas, even though he was exciting. With Cassamayor, one of the most clever fighters around and I do believe it would have been a tough one for Floyd, but as you say we will never know.
This is turning into a thread on Boxing now - Cafe is looming me thinks.

 

[Publicus]

You forget the first Barrera fight. Until the Cotto victory I still counted it as Pac-Man's greatest success. The Baby-Faced Assassin was white hot going into that fight. He was still riding the wave of crushing Prince Naseem and revenging the horrible decision against Morales. And Pacquiao dominated him and got Barrera's corner to stop the fight. Barrera could probably have hung on to the final bell (he was ****ed about the stoppage) but still the only time he was stopped in his prime.

I remember that fight fondly. Until that evening Pacquiao was just another name, an unpronouncable, unwritable one at that. Been in love with him ever since. Barrera was considered a top P4P guy at the time too, don't forget. The Paccy was robbed in the first Marquez fight, and dropped a close, but fair decision to Morales. And since then he's been unstoppable, including (IMO, and I know not many agree with me) in the 2nd Marquez fight, where I agree with the judges for once.

I don't care for his De la Hoya and Hatton fights. Give me Barrera, give me Marquez, give me Morales..... Give me the real Mexicans i guess.

EDIT: ZOMG!?!?! They bleep out "p-i-s-s-e-d"? What ****ing babies these cyclingnews folk are.

I didn't forget Barerra. I was keeping it recent, since that's when Pacquiao appeared on most folks screen. I first saw him on the undercard of one of De la Hoya's comeback fights when he took out a South African bad @*** (Ledwaba). I was a fan ever since.

As for Marquez, I had him winning the fight, but frankly Marquez kicked his @*** from rounds 2-12. Second fight was closer, but I gave Marquez the nod.

You are going to hate the fight with Floyd. Absolutely hate it. I don't think people appreciate the skill level it takes to neutralize an opponents offense. It's not always pretty, but it definitely takes skill to do it. Manny has a real puncher's chance in this fight, don't get me wrong--one punch and the dynamic of the fight could change. I just think over 12 rounds, the better boxer will win and that's Floyd.

 

[ak-zaaf]

My list looks something like

1. Tiger Woods
2. Roger Federer
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Lance Armstrong
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Michael Phelps

I think it's really hard to pick someone from a teamsport like that. Ronaldo grew to be the best single player (for a very short time) and lifted the Champions League, but for his national team he hasn't shown true greatness yet.
If I was going to pick a football player for the last decade I'd go with Andrea Pirlo. Maybe not the most obvious choice, but he's seen it all and was always a key player in the teams (Milan and Italy) he won prizes with.

To sum it up:
European Champion with Italy -21 (+ most goals and best player award)
World Champion with Italy (MotM in the final)
Olympic bronze medal
Serie A winner
Coppa Italia winner
2x Champions League winner
2x European Super Cup winner
2x World Cup for clubs winner
Pirlo was the brains behind all those wins.

 

[Moondance]

You are going to hate the fight with Floyd. Absolutely hate it. I don't think people appreciate the skill level it takes to neutralize an opponents offense. It's not always pretty, but it definitely takes skill to do it. Manny has a real puncher's chance in this fight, don't get me wrong--one punch and the dynamic of the fight could change. I just think over 12 rounds, the better boxer will win and that's Floyd.

I completely agree with you actually. I'm picking Floyd. I don't think he can stop Pacquiao (Manny has a very solid chin after all) but he can outpoint him.

You might find this funny, but I'm actually a huge admirer of Money Mayweather. I can fully appreciate his skills, I just wish that his formidable potential had been turned on the guys I mentioned above, and not Henry Brussels or Baldomir.

Mayweather has just disappointed me with his fight selection is all, and I'm a little jaded. I'm glad he isn't letting this fight go away.

He'll still have nothing on Bernard Hopkins though, still my #1.

 

[Moondance]

I think it's really hard to pick someone from a teamsport like that. Ronaldo grew to be the best single player (for a very short time) and lifted the Champions League, but for his national team he hasn't shown true greatness yet.
If I was going to pick a football player for the last decade I'd go with Andrea Pirlo. Maybe not the most obvious choice, but he's seen it all and was always a key player in the teams (Milan and Italy) he won prizes with.

To sum it up:
European Champion with Italy -21 (+ most goals and best player award)
World Champion with Italy (MotM in the final)
Olympic bronze medal
Serie A winner
Coppa Italia winner
2x Champions League winner
2x European Super Cup winner
2x World Cup for clubs winner
Pirlo was the brains behind all those wins.

No love for Carlo Ancellotti and Marcello Lippi?

 

[BikeCentric]

Boring decade really... most absolutely outstanding performances I can think of were shared over the 90s and 00s.

Who are the other "cyclists of the decade" ?

Alberto Contador
Johan Museeow
Peter Van Petegam
Fabian Cancellara
Tom Boonen
Mario Cipolini
Paolo Bettini
Gilberto Simoni

I think Lance wins it pretty convincingly for cycling, I'd go with one of the Classics guys for second - Museeow, PVP, or the Cricket.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

My list looks something like

1. Tiger Woods
2. Roger Federer
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Lance Armstrong
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Michael Phelps

Schumacher eh? That surprising. I wouldn't have ever thought about drivers in this regard. That wasn't meant as a jab at you, formula one, or his achievements. I just don't think I would rank him above Lance, Ronaldo, or Phelps.

 

[Angliru]

right. Phelps should be up there.
Any boxing fans here? I thought the Klitschko brothers did something special the last years.

In order to be considered "great" in your sport, IMO you need to have faced talent fairly equal to or as "great" as yourself. Heavyweight boxing is going through the most talent deprived period it has seen in years. There are no other "great" heavyweights to challenge the Klitschko brothers.

Ali had Frazier, Foreman, Liston...

Who have the Klitschko brothers had? I do think they are talented boxers though but not great.

 

[avanti]

Isn't this award premature? - the current decade ends December 31, 2010.

 

[Tugboat]

Schumacher eh? That surprising. I wouldn't have ever thought about drivers in this regard. That wasn't meant as a jab at you, formula one, or his achievements. I just don't think I would rank him above Lance, Ronaldo, or Phelps.

I'd have Valentino Rossi in a top 5 list. Probably at 3 behind Federer and Woods and ahead of Armstrong who I'd have 4th.

 

[ViaPagliano]

1) Roger Federer
2) Lance
3) Cristiano Ronaldo

 

[Azdak6]

I do remember it. Herschel Walker won it twice.

But Herschel was insane... professional football player, all american college track star (just missed making the 4x100 relay team), olympic bobsled competitor, trained with ballet and was a blackbelt in tae kwan do.

An interesting fact about Rote... he was actually attending college on an American Football scholarship. He broke his leg... so was forced to play soccer. He was really a US football athelete playing soccer due to injury.

I didn't remember that. I just remember the shock in the mainstream sports media that a "soccer player" beat out all of the traditional "athletes". Not only did most americans not have a clue about the all-around ability needed to play soccer, participants in the "traditional" mainstream American professional sports were not nearly as well physically trained as they are today.

Agree that HW was a freak--in the best possible meaning.

 

[BikeCentric]

Agree that HW was a freak--in the best possible meaning.

It's too bad that his trade alone can be credited for making the Cowboys into "America's Team" but I digress.