Attn: Embedded links, Skimwords

[Hugh Januss]

I thought it would be interesting to read the T&C's attached to this website just to make sure that skimwords isn't breaking the rules we signed up to.

Section 4 is the relevant one.



In my opinion SkimWords contravenes the bolded parts. Opinion?

At the very best it is advertising by entrapment.

 

[Granville57]

I thought it would be interesting to read the T&C's attached to this website just to make sure that skimwords isn't breaking the rules we signed up to.

Section 4 is the relevant one.

As such, you as the user of the Website Service are responsible for any Content you submit to the Website and the manner in which the Website Service is used under your username.

In my opinion SkimWords contravenes the bolded parts. Opinion?

Thanks for that. I gotta admit, I never once read the T&C's (didn't even see them hidden down there).

I won't try to argue any of the legal semantics to all of this, but here are a few more observations. I find them "interesting."

To the above excerpt: It's difficult for me to "accept responsibility" for my Content, if that very content itself is being manipulated.

Here are some other points of interest from the same source:

GENERAL RULES RELATING TO CONDUCT: The Website Service is made available for your own, personal use. The Website Service must not be used for any commercial purpose whatsoever or for any illegal or unauthorised purpose.

And here are some other things that "we" are not supposed to do.

5. SPECIFIC RULES RELATING TO CONDUCT: ...you agree not to:

b. Upload, post or otherwise display any Content which contains...any chain letters, pyramid-selling schemes, bulk mail, junk mail or similar.

e. Upload, post or otherwise display any Content for any commercial or business purpose including (without limitation) any Content which contains any advertising or promotional materials.

g. Upload, post or otherwise display any Content which is false, misleading, un-necessary and/or repetitive...

h. Upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content to a part of the Website which is irrelevant to the subject matter of the Content.

v. Upload, post or otherwise display any Content comprising an advertisement or accept payment or anything of value from any person in exchange for you uploading, posting or displaying any Content or otherwise performing any commercial activity on or through the Website.

As I stated above, I'm not the least bit interested in arguing or debating these points with anyone that runs the site. I'm sure that there are multiple ways to justify or explain any of the seeming contradictions laid out here. I couldn't care less about trying to "win" one side or the other of that particular "argument."

But does CN really want to dance around all these issues?

 

[JA.Tri]

best laugh ever

I am all for skimwords. They are very useful. Add me to the list that is in favor of skimwords everywhere inside members posts.

I especially like the way it was put into the forums unannounced. It was a great way to beta test it.

I am also pretty sure if you set up a poll you will find that the minority of users are against the use of skimwords while the majority of users just do not gava or like in my situation I really do like the use of skimwords. I agree 100% with what Daniel Benson has said on the subject.

Ta GW.

As HJ indicates: walking a tight rope while skating on very thin ice

 

[JA.Tri]

on a serious note

"Our apologies for not notifying the Cyclingnews community in advance that we're testing Skimwords on the Cyclingnews forum. This is a short term test and we are monitoring your feedback through the forums and the response rates to the ads themselves.

We understand that a minority of users have an issue with this kind of advertising but advertising is how we fund the site. Ads allow us to provide you with news and race reports 24/7 and for free - and they fund this forum. We are investigating a few different advertising models over the coming months in an attempt to find new ways for our advertisers to engage with you in a way that you find interesting and to that end we have created a forum thread for your feedback on your preferred ad formats (insert link here).

We will continue to work hard to maintain the balance between advertising and editorial and appreciate your support and feedback on this. We will ensure that in future we let you know what we're up to and we hope you take the opportunity to provide us with constructive feedback on how you would like our advertisers to communicate with you."

I am so disappointed that CN chose to beta test without notifying the users. Of all the issues arising from "sk1mw0rds" this is the most alarming.

From Daniel's first post, I infer that even Daniel was unaware of the beta test.

Nobody can reasonably object to CN obtaining fair revenue. Fair as in that reasonably required for the comfortable ongoing operation of CN. Fair also as in regard to the respect afforded its stakeholders. On the second definition...CN=FAIL.

I suggest that (even if it meets the first definition) SWs probably fails the second above definition of fair, and I vote NO! (at this time in the absence of options ).

CN's apology IMHO failed to achieve the level of consideration that CN normally affords to its stakeholders.

I look forward to CN improving both its internal and external communication.

regards js

ps if SWs are implemented then transparency of use is a must (if my continued presence is desired )

pps SWs don't show up on my browser, therefore I have no idea of any monster I may create

 

[Anonymous]

I just went back to reread some of the first posts and noticed in TSF's post two links, one for garminand one for halfords. when i ran the cursor over halfords, a yellow box clearly indicating that the link was added by skimwords appeared.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I get the same yellow box but it doesnt go far enough. There is a significant delay (in web times) before the box appears, certainly enough time to click the link before the box appears. Double underscoring is the standard approach.

That doesnt take away from the fact that advertising in our freely provided material is taking the mick. The forum brings a lot of people to cn and in turn generates advertising revenue, we provide the content free of charge. Skimwords is a step too far.

Look at post 15 on this page
http://www.knowledgesutra.com/forums/topic/37718-get-paid-to-post-on-forums/
That is how skimwords look best imo (kontera), obvious and non sneaky

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Trying to get around all of it is an irritation too. Say I don't want my posts to be adverts for companies I don't support, or even ones I do support but don't actually want to shill for.

This results in myriad time and effort-consuming methods of circumventing these words, either with constant deliberate typos (like getting around the swear filter) or by inserting code for bold or underline and then un-bold or un-underline in the middle of words. If this is a word we use consistently on the forum, such as Vaughters' team or the Italian Grand Tour, then this is a nuisance at best. It's like taking away our ability to freely discuss some of the topics that are most desirable to discuss.

Either that or the board gets filled with code, which makes it almost unreadable to the new user who can't figure out why we keep talking about "Team Slipstream Chipotle presented by H3O" or the "Ronde van Italië" - or is derided as a spammer when they post about the real names for these things.

 

[MacRoadie]

Say I don't want my posts to be adverts for companies I don't support, or even ones I do support but don't actually want to shill for.

Bingo

You write a scathing commentary on Team fill-in-the-blank and their ethics/internal testing/whatever, voicing your strong displeasure with them, yet your post becomes populated with links to their very website, generating revenue for CN AND the very team you are voicing your displeasure with.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

No, what happens is when you type certain flagged words, such as "Giro" or "Garmin", or "Cervelo" in any context, the forum automatically converts that word to a hyperlink to a pre-determined (and paid for) web page. This occurs AFTER you submit your post.

words that come to mind to describe this: wacko, clever, ah sheet. Maybe some admins from cycling forums has hacked in and planted a little gift, and maybe it's a disgruntled former CN employee

 

[gregod]

I get the same yellow box but it doesnt go far enough. There is a significant delay (in web times) before the box appears, certainly enough time to click the link before the box appears. Double underscoring is the standard approach.

That doesnt take away from the fact that advertising in our freely provided material is taking the mick. The forum brings a lot of people to cn and in turn generates advertising revenue, we provide the content free of charge. Skimwords is a step too far.

Look at post 15 on this page
http://www.knowledgesutra.com/forums/topic/37718-get-paid-to-post-on-forums/
That is how skimwords look best imo (kontera), obvious and non sneaky

I agree about the delay; it could be deceptive. I checked out post 15. The link in that post was obvious, but nothing indicated that it was a sponsored link. Maybe that with the floating box would be good.

... Say I don't want my posts to be adverts for companies I don't support, or even ones I do support but don't actually want to shill for.
...

Bingo

You write a scathing commentary on Team fill-in-the-blank and their ethics/internal testing/whatever, voicing your strong displeasure with them, yet your post becomes populated with links to their very website, generating revenue for CN AND the very team you are voicing your displeasure with.

At first I was agnostic about the skimwords, but more and more I am coming around to thinking that they are inherently deceptive.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Trying to get around all of it is an irritation too. Say I don't want my posts to be adverts for companies I don't support, or even ones I do support but don't actually want to shill for.

This results in myriad time and effort-consuming methods of circumventing these words, either with constant deliberate typos (like getting around the swear filter) or by inserting code for bold or underline and then un-bold or un-underline in the middle of words. If this is a word we use consistently on the forum, such as Vaughters' team or the Italian Grand Tour, then this is a nuisance at best. It's like taking away our ability to freely discuss some of the topics that are most desirable to discuss.

Either that or the board gets filled with code, which makes it almost unreadable to the new user who can't figure out why we keep talking about "Team Slipstream Chipotle presented by H3O" or the "Ronde van Italië" - or is derided as a spammer when they post about the real names for these things.

That is a horrible scenario you describe. I was ALMOST in tears but errrrrrr not.

Seriously this is a nothing issue and there are many people crying about nothing.

All types of places do this and it is just part of Cycling News making money. Yet the negative or the folks who do not like it is in the NEGATIVE. MOST members of this message board have decided not to even spend a second contributing to this mess and yet the minority is screaming the most.

Honestly you guys are TROLLING CYCLING NEWS just by general definition of trolling. TROLLS.

 

[gregod]

That is a horrible scenario you describe. I was ALMOST in tears but errrrrrr not.

Seriously this is a nothing issue and there are many people crying about nothing.

All types of places do this and it is just part of Cycling News making money. Yet the negative or the folks who do not like it is in the NEGATIVE. MOST members of this message board have decided not to even spend a second contributing to this mess and yet the minority is screaming the most.

Honestly you guys are TROLLING CYCLING NEWS just by general definition of trolling. TROLLS.

By definition only the people who are interested in a particular topic will post on it. Therefore, while it is a nothing issue to most, others do have legitimate concerns.

We recognize the need to make money. Forgive me, I don't quite understand what you mean by the sentence that i bolded.

As far as trolling goes, I don't know how this qualifies. but then again, most of what is accused of being trolling in this forum doesn't seem to rise to the level of deliberately provocotive posting. most of what i have read so far has been reasoned and thoughtful.

 

[Oskayono]

If you took the forum away from CN it would just be another cycling news site. The forum is probably the biggest source of real information about cycling on the internet. You only have to look at views for some threads.

Hahaha! Yep, gotta find out what cubicle gnomes think of cycling to find out real information about cycling!!

 

[Anonymous]

I agree about the delay; it could be deceptive. I checked out post 15. The link in that post was obvious, but nothing indicated that it was a sponsored link. Maybe that with the floating box would be good.

At first I was agnostic about the skimwords, but more and more I am coming around to thinking that they are inherently deceptive.

Sorry post, 18 not 15.

Double underscore and then floating box when rolled over

 

[Anonymous]

"Our apologies for not notifying the Cyclingnews community in advance that we're testing Skimwords on the Cyclingnews forum. This is a short term test and we are monitoring your feedback through the forums and the response rates to the ads themselves.

We understand that a minority of users have an issue with this kind of advertising but advertising is how we fund the site. Ads allow us to provide you with news and race reports 24/7 and for free - and they fund this forum. We are investigating a few different advertising models over the coming months in an attempt to find new ways for our advertisers to engage with you in a way that you find interesting and to that end we have created a forum thread for your feedback on your preferred ad formats (insert link here).

We will continue to work hard to maintain the balance between advertising and editorial and appreciate your support and feedback on this. We will ensure that in future we let you know what we're up to and we hope you take the opportunity to provide us with constructive feedback on how you would like our advertisers to communicate with you."

Interesting discussion of cyclingnews' usage of skimwords. I mean cyclingnews has the legal right to do this as my words are posted on a site paid for by cyclingnews. I believe it shows a certain amount of disrespect for the people who post here, but cyclingnews can choose to do what it wants with our words. I do ask that cyclingnews and their staff consider the distaste many will have with their decision, but if cyclingnews chooses to employ skimwords, then I guess we will all just have to passively take their decision in stride?

 

[usedtobefast]

Hahaha! Yep, gotta find out what cubicle gnomes think of cycling to find out real information about cycling!!

really?...

 

[Granville57]

Sorry post, 18 not 15.

Just a quick FYI:

Like many sites, including CN, you can link directly to any specific post by clicking on the actual post #.

 

[Polish]

Is it really that hard to click on a few skimword adds?
Would it really kill some of you guys to click click click?

Take Take Take. How about some giving?

This is forum.cyclingnews.com
Not a .org
You guys know the difference between a .com and a .org right?

Cyclingnews is a business with employees to support.
Some of the employees have kids. Some have cats.
Orthodondists and kittychow&litter are not cheap
C'mon. click click click click click click click.

Click on Garmin. Holy Crap they support a clean CYCLING team.
Click on Giro. They save CYCLISTS lives.

"oh, but skimwords Violate the Integrity of my forum posts"
OMG, that is not even funny but it really is lol.

"I will leave the CN forum if skimwords are adopted"
Meow. Try not to ban me on your way out the door lol again.

 

[patricknd]

Is it really that hard to click on a few skimword adds?
Would it really kill some of you guys to click click click?

Take Take Take. How about some giving?

This is forum.cyclingnews.com
Not a .org
You guys know the difference between a .com and a .org right?

Cyclingnews is a business with employees to support.
Some of the employees have kids. Some have cats.
Orthodondists and kittychow&litter are not cheap
C'mon. click click click click click click click.

Click on Garmin. Holy Crap they support a clean CYCLING team.
Click on Giro. They save CYCLISTS lives.

"oh, but skimwords Violate the Integrity of my forum posts"
OMG, that is not even funny but it really is lol.

"I will leave the CN forum if skimwords are adopted"
Meow. Try not to ban me on your way out the door lol again.

glad you're back. been a lot of moping around without you and flicker. bet the post activity is down by 15% at least.

 

[LugHugger]

"Our apologies for not notifying the Cyclingnews community in advance that we're testing Skimwords on the Cyclingnews forum. This is a short term test and we are monitoring your feedback through the forums and the response rates to the ads themselves.

We understand that a minority of users have an issue with this kind of advertising but advertising is how we fund the site. Ads allow us to provide you with news and race reports 24/7 and for free - and they fund this forum. We are investigating a few different advertising models over the coming months in an attempt to find new ways for our advertisers to engage with you in a way that you find interesting and to that end we have created a forum thread for your feedback on your preferred ad formats (insert link here).

We will continue to work hard to maintain the balance between advertising and editorial and appreciate your support and feedback on this. We will ensure that in future we let you know what we're up to and we hope you take the opportunity to provide us with constructive feedback on how you would like our advertisers to communicate with you."

You can add me to the "minority" who object. Oh, and check your records. I think that you'll find that I'm one of the forums earliest subscribers.

Please keep the forum updated on these decisions. If you decide to proceed with this software, or software like it, I expect to the decision be made public in a VERY prominent way.

 

[Daniel Benson]

Hey all, Just dropping in to say that I'm reading all your feedback and passing it to the relevant people at Future.

Thanks

Daniel

 

[gregod]

...

This is forum.cyclingnews.com
Not a .org
You guys know the difference between a .com and a .org right?

...

Yes, we do. We, most of us, click on the ads on the side. Except for the google ads, CN puts its reputation on the line when it posts an ad and for those of us who place some trust in this site, we might be more inclined toward using a product or site that is de facto endorsed by CN.

By the same reasoning, any links that we put in our posts constitute a positive or negative endorsement of a product or opinion. Therefore, if a third party sneaks links in to a forum user's post, they are co-opting that person's reputation for an endorsement. This might not be of concern to those whose reputation on this forum is somewhat suspect, but it does concern many.

As long as the skimwords are very obvious, most people would not object to their use.

 

[thrawn]

I'm not a fan of them either.

 

[Anonymous]

I object to it because I object to the commoditization of everything, especially my words by commercial entities. I realize that they provide the forum for my words, and that they therefore own them. I get that. I still object. I realize times are tough, but I don't care how tough they are, I don't agree with using skimwords. I don't want my posts linked to anything I don't choose to promote myself. Obviously, I posted earlier about that, and my social commentary was not appreciated, yet this is a fine usage of the forum? Again, what is "obscene" and what is obscene are not readily apparent to many people. You are here<- CN.

 

[AussieGoddess]

yeah Im not a fan either

 

[Daniel Benson]

We will be removing this from the forums.

Dan