Aussies don't dope

[del1962]

Re:

Stryder, Rogers is basically the bargain version of Klöden.

As for the reference to 4th place, obviously Plaza is clinic material in 2005 (pre-Puerto, which meant he was persona non grata in most races in 2007 so Caisse jettisoned him until the storm had blown over) when he was setting the fastest ever long GT time trial (which I believe still stands) en route to 5th in the Vuelta, and with a career renaissance in his mid-30s with his GT stages this year after a couple of years of diminishing returns as a domestique at Abarcá, but not sure how he's relevant to this particular thread.

Plaza is also, if you wanted to be obtuse, the youngest veteran in the péloton, since he was born on February 29th, which means he celebrates his 9th birthday next year...

Probably because he just signed for Orica - at least thats what I heard

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Ah, gotcha, that makes sense.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

What year did Gerro ride the Comm bank classic?

2004(?) IIRC. Got in a 2 man break, sat on for over an hour and rolled the sprint.

Gerrans never rode the CBCC. He would have been 20 at the time of the final edition in 2000*. Old enough to race it, but he never did.

You might be thinking of the 2004 Herald Sun Tour, where Gerrans won stage 9 when he went with a 2 man attack with 20km remaining.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/oct04/suntour04/?id=results/suntour049


* The CBCC ended in 2000 (it had 19 editions from 1982-2000). It ended for various reasons, fallout from Festina affecting blue chip sponsor interest was a contributing factor.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

What year did Gerro ride the Comm bank classic?

2004(?) IIRC. Got in a 2 man break, sat on for over an hour and rolled the sprint.

Gerrans never rode the CBCC. He would have been 20 at the time of the final edition in 2000*. Old enough to race it, but he never did.

You might be thinking of the 2004 Herald Sun Tour, where Gerrans won stage 9 when he went with a 2 man attack with 20km remaining.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/oct04/suntour04/?id=results/suntour049


* The CBCC ended in 2000 (it had 19 editions from 1982-2000). It ended for various reasons, fallout from Festina affecting blue chip sponsor interest was a contributing factor.

The Commenweath Bank Cycle Classic was a proam event not fully professional. It's hosted a lot of amateur racers from Eastern Europe. The Sun Tour was the Professional event. Ullrich raced as a amauter in the event.

It stopped in 2000 due the the Commenwealth Bank becoming privatised in 96 and changing their sponsorship priorities. Nothing to do with Festina.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

The Commenweath Bank Cycle Classic was a proam event not fully professional. It's hosted a lot of amateur racers from Eastern Europe. The Sun Tour was the Professional event. Ullrich raced as a amauter in the event.

It stopped in 2000 due the the Commenwealth Bank becoming privatised in 96 and changing their sponsorship priorities. Nothing to do with Festina.

I'll admit I'm just going by what I was told by someone from the Bank at the time who was involved in the race's promotion. I recall seeing the CBA promotional photos of Neil Stephens all done in in readiness before the 1998 news broke.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Ah!!!! Freakin Teflon Mick Rogers, still don't get how people I speak to think he is/was clean

they dont "think" he was/is clean. they are projecting their worldview. people are good ergo, no way a good guy like mick would dope.

well, mick may be a good guy, but it is a logical fallacy that this determines status wrt doping in sport. see: 131313 's position on domestic pros in America. there are good guys who dope also. there are bad guys who dont dope also.

The Commenweath Bank Cycle Classic was a proam event not fully professional. It's hosted a lot of amateur racers from Eastern Europe. The Sun Tour was the Professional event. Ullrich raced as a amauter in the event.

It stopped in 2000 due the the Commenwealth Bank becoming privatised in 96 and changing their sponsorship priorities. Nothing to do with Festina.

bates the promoter right? kathy bates father?

not related to the adelaide gene bates tho.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

What year did Gerro ride the Comm bank classic?

2004(?) IIRC. Got in a 2 man break, sat on for over an hour and rolled the sprint.

Gerrans never rode the CBCC. He would have been 20 at the time of the final edition in 2000*. Old enough to race it, but he never did.

You might be thinking of the 2004 Herald Sun Tour, where Gerrans won stage 9 when he went with a 2 man attack with 20km remaining.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/oct04/suntour04/?id=results/suntour049


* The CBCC ended in 2000 (it had 19 editions from 1982-2000). It ended for various reasons, fallout from Festina affecting blue chip sponsor interest was a contributing factor.

The Commenweath Bank Cycle Classic was a proam event not fully professional. It's hosted a lot of amateur racers from Eastern Europe. The Sun Tour was the Professional event. Ullrich raced as a amauter in the event.

It stopped in 2000 due the the Commenwealth Bank becoming privatised in 96 and changing their sponsorship priorities. Nothing to do with Festina.

That was it. Just a bit off!!

It was Gerrans' good friend IRL too.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

It was Gerrans, Armstrong, Leipheimer and Horner.

Without dope Gerrans would be struggling to hold wheels at Pro Conti level just like he was in the Commonwealth Bank Classic before he went to Europe. A chemical creation.

Nice guy though.

wait a sec, gerro woulda been about 16 when the commonwealth bank was still running.

Yeah I got my late season stage races mixed up.

 

[blackcat]

DearWiggo did you ride with the Saeco rider Davidson of Caulfield Carnegie? 42x16 what do you remember of him. I think he had a two year neo contract with Saeco Cannondale's Cipo reign in 02 and 03 then he came back to do a trade. I think he was with Rahna de Marte in Italy, who became Gerro's wife.

Wonder out of him, Allan Davis, Allan's brother Brad, Cookie, Gerro, that generation, who was the best rider when they were all 19/20 together, think that the AIS Academy in Varese was just starting up around 2005 with Mapei's backing. Actually, that is Rogers' generation. He must have been the most talented of that lot. Mcgee a few years on him. spose you can throw Renshaw into that lot, but he was mostly on the track side.

Gerro certainly has done the best wrt a palmares, and as a winner, I have him over Evans wrt Australia's best ever. And Skippy his mentor. ok, Evans won tdf and Worlds, but Gerro was a winner. Phenomenal record. Australia's best imo.

Actually, the VIS coach Dave Sanders had an anecdote about Cooke and Gerrans, and when Sanders was putting the feelers out for testing to young talented riders to coaches and clubs in Vic, he said their numbers were off the charts, and they were ones to invest in and with VIS scholarships.

now, this could be one of those anecdotes that gets massaged in hindsight, I would have heard it around 2005, the year Gerro moved across as a stagiare and a neo contract with AG2R, and Cookie had just won the maillot vert in July, so Sanders may have been retrofitting, and confirmation bias(ing [sic] creating my own verb neologism)... so the story, might have been part fictional creation from Sanders, part truth, they did have manifest talent. But they had the ergo/VO2max testing at VIS by early 90's, so this is not out of the boundaries as a possibility.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

You might be thinking of the 2004 Herald Sun Tour, where Gerrans won stage 9 when he went with a 2 man attack with 20km remaining.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/oct04/suntour04/?id=results/suntour049

Mansfield is Gerro's home town.

once he sees the route and the road handbook, this is the stage he highlighted. from what we now know of Gerro, he was ALWAYS gunna boss this stage.

 

[Archibald]

Re:

Now we even have full football teams under threat of sanction amid doping scandals(which have been rigorously reported on in the media).

Until it's proven, much like any other country, we'll largely turn a blind eye while we're winning.

Ah, Essendon... we'll convict the doctor who supplies all the players, but somehow not one player gets convicted or sanctioned... a real "I didn't inhale" scenario...

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

bates the promoter right? kathy bates father?

Wrong Bates. Kate's dad (and her sister Natalie's dad) is Rob, of Parramatta.

Phil Bates of St George was the CBCC race promoter.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re:

Mads Kaggestad on Gerrans: viewtopic.php?p=817653#p817653.

Isn't it amazing what working with Dr. Manuel Rodriguez will do for someone's career?
Almost brings a manly tear to my eye.

 

[whynotme101]

If aussies dope its just the once, like Stuart O'Grady

 

[blackcat]

Re:

If aussies dope its just the once, like Stuart O'Grady

we dont dope. we share that muscular christianity gene with the brits.

and tWiggo is half australian.

ofcourse we dont dope.

 

[Ferminal]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22897995/desperation-drove-australia-cheat-steven-smith

How good is everyone laying into the Australian cricket team... a sport in itself really. The outrage is a bit much though, did you think our heroes were clean and tampering is only something feeble Brits and Saffers do? Imagine if there was a proper PED scandal where blame couldn't be assigned to someone's mum.

Also love the "how do I tell my children their idols cheat" as though kids aren't allowed to know how the real world works until they have to experience it.

Smith and Lehman don't survive this.

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22897995/desperation-drove-australia-cheat-steven-smith

How good is everyone laying into the Australian cricket team... a sport in itself really. The outrage is a bit much though, did you think our heroes were clean and tampering is only something feeble Brits and Saffers do? Imagine if there was a proper PED scandal where blame couldn't be assigned to someone's mum.

Also love the "how do I tell my children their idols cheat" as though kids aren't allowed to know how the real world works until they have to experience it.

Smith and Lehman don't survive this.

Agree Smith and Boof should carry the can. In fact the 5 or 6 players "leadership team" are all complicit and should be punished

But the ICC have announced a one match ban for Smith, nothing for Lehman, 3 demerit points for Bancroft

Will Cricket Australia take things further? Has to be doubtful. Especially with a new TV deal currently being negotiated

 

[thehog]

Re:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22897995/desperation-drove-australia-cheat-steven-smith

How good is everyone laying into the Australian cricket team... a sport in itself really. The outrage is a bit much though, did you think our heroes were clean and tampering is only something feeble Brits and Saffers do? Imagine if there was a proper PED scandal where blame couldn't be assigned to someone's mum.

Also love the "how do I tell my children their idols cheat" as though kids aren't allowed to know how the real world works until they have to experience it.

Smith and Lehman don't survive this.

Smith got a one match ban, the worst part was Lehman. When he saw the video footage on the big screen he sent out the 12th man to tell Bancroft to conceal the evidence. The fact that the umpires asked what was in his pocket and he produced a sunglasses case showed not only was this premeditated but they also attempted to conceal it once caught. Scuffing one side of the ball in not a new method of cheating but the way this one played out showed Australia’s are fairly use to cheating as a norm heh using the “we’re all Aussies, we are good blokes” excuse.

 

[yaco]

At the end of the day Cricket Australia has covertly supported poor behaviour by the Australian team - Eventually you reap what you sow - All we need now is for umpires to intervene to stop poor behaviour on the field.

 

[Parker]

Re:

How good is everyone laying into the Australian cricket team... a sport in itself really. The outrage is a bit much though, did you think our heroes were clean and tampering is only something feeble Brits and Saffers do? Imagine if there was a proper PED scandal where blame couldn't be assigned to someone's mum.

While other teams may well have a little nick at the ball occasionally, there's a general feeling in cricket that this Australian team is a group of unpleasant people - Warner front and centre. (And yes, Stokes for England - but that's off the pitch)

Essentially what Yaco said above.

 

[Parker]

Interestingly cricket does have a lesson to teach the Clinic. And that's the story of reverse swing.

Back in 1992 two Pakistani bowlers - Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis - demolished England with a bowling innovation called 'reverse swing'. At the time a lot of people accused them of cheating saying that it wasn't physically possible. Here's the article in that year's Wisden (cricket bible): http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/152058.html

Fast forward to now reverse swing is an established fact and one of the best exponents is England's most prolific wicket taker, Jimmy Anderson

The moral of the story is just because you can't explain something, it's doesn't follow that it's cheating.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Reverse swing has been around since well before the 1990s. The Pakistani duo didn't invent it. They were just brilliant at exploiting it.

Ball tampering in the manner employed by the Australian team is used to bring the effect on earlier in the game, the rules explicitly outlaw it (law 41.3.2) and is cheating pure and simple.

Do other teams and players do it? Yes. But that's not really the point.

The issues in this case are that:

- it was not a spur of the moment thing but was pre-meditated and discussed in the change rooms during a break in play and an agreed strategy to implement it was devised

- the teams' captain instructed a junior member of the team to do the dirty work, and that junior member, while uncomfortable with the prospect did not say no to the cheating

- when it was realised they were being caught on video, there was an attempt at cover up

Those all point to a poor culture and cultural change can only come from the top.

That said it's pro sport so as distasteful as it may be the reality is the ethics of what happens now will be somewhat malleable.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re:

Interestingly cricket does have a lesson to teach the Clinic. And that's the story of reverse swing.

Back in 1992 two Pakistani bowlers - Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis - demolished England with a bowling innovation called 'reverse swing'. At the time a lot of people accused them of cheating saying that it wasn't physically possible. Here's the article in that year's Wisden (cricket bible): http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/152058.html

Fast forward to now reverse swing is an established fact and one of the best exponents is England's most prolific wicket taker, Jimmy Anderson

The moral of the story is just because you can't explain something, it's doesn't follow that it's cheating.

The Pakistan team of the 90s were doing exactly what the Australians are doing now. 1992 at Lords for example. Waqar himself got caught some years later

The moral of the story being if it quacks....

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Interestingly cricket does have a lesson to teach the Clinic. And that's the story of reverse swing.

Back in 1992 two Pakistani bowlers - Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis - demolished England with a bowling innovation called 'reverse swing'. At the time a lot of people accused them of cheating saying that it wasn't physically possible. Here's the article in that year's Wisden (cricket bible): http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/152058.html

Fast forward to now reverse swing is an established fact and one of the best exponents is England's most prolific wicket taker, Jimmy Anderson

The moral of the story is just because you can't explain something, it's doesn't follow that it's cheating.

The Pakistan team of the 90s were doing exactly what the Australians are doing now. 1992 at Lords for example. Waqar himself got caught some years later

The moral of the story being if it quacks....

Nonsense. People said that reverse swing was impossible and was a result of cheating. This was proved wrong. Reverse swing is a cricket standard now.

 

[Parker]

Re:

Reverse swing has been around since well before the 1990s. The Pakistani duo didn't invent it. They were just brilliant at exploiting it.

It's true they didn't invent it. Pakistanis before them did. But they were the first bowlers good enough to make it matter at Test level.

My point is that Akram and Younis were called cheats for doing something that the establishment and fans didn't understand