Austria To Introduce 10 Year Prison Term For Doping In Sports

[workingclasshero]

How is it fraud when they're all on the juice anyway?

The only people being fooled are those daft enough to believe there's anyone clean in the top echelon of pro sports.

To those people, I have this bridge you might be interested in...

what bridge is it?

look, perhaps this could be part of what could give us a clean (or cleaner) sport in the future? there's no denying every fooker at the top of cycling (stick to that for now) is doped off their heads but perhaps my kid can become the best in the world without going down this path? or even be able to just make a living this way? worth a try imo. though i'm not sure this is going to do anything either way, it'll reinforce the shut-it mentality in each individual, dopers will fight even harder against any case brought on against them

 

[Anonymous]

what bridge is it?

look, perhaps this could be part of what could give us a clean (or cleaner) sport in the future?

The campaign to stop people from using drugs for fun by putting them in jail has been a total failure. Attempting to stop people from using drugs for money by the same means has even less chance of success, but will just criminalise another group of people, leaving the state to pick up the tab for their incarceration.

Waste of time and money replicating in sport a policy that we know doesn't work in society as a whole.

 

[workingclasshero]

The campaign to stop people from using drugs for fun by putting them in jail has been a total failure. Attempting to stop people from using drugs for money by the same means has even less chance of success, but will just criminalise another group of people, leaving the state to pick up the tab for their incarceration.

Waste of time and money replicating in sport a policy that we know doesn't work in society as a whole.

oh the big one - legalisation. completely against it myself.

and anyhoo, i don't think you can see recreational drug policy and peds as equals. even if someone is having great fun at a party doing E's, my kid doesn't have to take them to have some top fun himself.

but he will be forced to do performance enhancing drugs to keep up with the dopers at the top of his sport if that's what they do - especially if it is legalised, then why would he not?

 

[BikeCentric]

The campaign to stop people from using drugs for fun by putting them in jail has been a total failure. Attempting to stop people from using drugs for money by the same means has even less chance of success, but will just criminalise another group of people, leaving the state to pick up the tab for their incarceration.

Waste of time and money replicating in sport a policy that we know doesn't work in society as a whole.

So do you think the drugs should remain in the shadows as the "dark side" of the sport or do you think they should be openly accepted as "necessary" for competition?

I think both options will destroy the sport in the long run.

 

[Anonymous]

So do you think the drugs should remain in the shadows as the "dark side" of the sport or do you think they should be openly accepted as "necessary" for competition?

I think both options will destroy the sport in the long run.

I honestly don't have an opinion either way, I just observe reality as it is.

I do feel rather sorry for guys like workinglasshero who'd like his kids to take part in drug-free sport, but given the history of our species as a drug-using animal, you might as well wish for your kids to be able to skateboard to the moon.

Me, I like achievable goals. I don't have kids, but if I did, I'd be steering them away from aspiring to be elite sportspeople.

 

[workingclasshero]

Me, I like achievable goals. I don't have kids, but if I did, I'd be steering them away from aspiring to be elite sportspeople.

well same here. it is a hypothetical kid (i need to find a bird with great lungs before i can dream of passing on good enough genes to raise a world class athlete)

i'm also aspiring to go skateboarding to the moon. and back!

 

[Polish]

I'll Be Back...

"Serving your Time" by spending a "2-year ban" riding your bike is a joke.
ban me ban me. Let me cheat my way to a few hundred thousand Euro's
first, however, before you ban me to the 2-year riding vacation. That is supposed to be an incentive NOT to cheat??

But a "10 year Austrian Prison Term"?

Dopers should be escorted unpaid from the sport forever after one offense.
No jail terms or 2-year riding vacations.

And don't get me started on the corrupt WADA lab employees:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iAB0aglp-7yD0NwjvYW1cFgs1Zlg

 

[Dr. Maserati]

How is it fraud when they're all on the juice anyway?

The only people being fooled are those daft enough to believe there's anyone clean in the top echelon of pro sports.

To those people, I have this bridge you might be interested in...

I suppose this is the crux of the matter - how do you define 'top echelon'. Top 20, top 100, top 800? How far do you have to go down the Pro ladder to find clean riders?
I do not have an answer to that - regardless of our opinions there are clean athletes and they should be protected against those that defraud them.

I dont agree with your observation about PED abuse being similar to 'diving in the penalty box' - yes, both are cheating and perhaps fraud. However when you have 2 athletes of similar ability and one starts to play with the 'hotsause' then if forces the other as Zulle said to either 'arm up or go back to painting houses'. This is both unfair but in particular very dangerous to the health of the athletes.

Also - the same is true of the difference between recreational drug abuse and taking PED's. Again if you or my neighbor or colleagues want to engage in recreational drugs this does not force me to consider taking them - that is personal choice. However with athletes taking PED's I may have to decide to join the 'Arms Race' to maintain my livelihood.

 

[zealot66]

Hitler annexed austria and made them germans. Maybe this is along the same lines ?

 

[Polish]

Austrian National Fraud Act

Does anyone know what other kinds of FRAUD are punishable under
the Austrian National Fraud Act?

It seems Sporting Fraud is different from many other types of Fraud.

Not like Pro Cyclists are stealing money from Widowers and Pensioners.
They are paid the Big Bucks by Sponsors who expect RESULTS.

Many of the sponsors turn a blind eye to the doping as long as
the results get them the publicity...THEN turn all high and mighty
when "their" guy gets caught.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Does anyone know what other kinds of FRAUD are punishable under
the Austrian National Fraud Act?

It seems Sporting Fraud is different from many other types of Fraud.

Not like Pro Cyclists are stealing money from Widowers and Pensioners.
They are paid the Big Bucks by Sponsors who expect RESULTS.

Many of the sponsors turn a blind eye to the doping as long as
the results get them the publicity...THEN turn all high and mighty
when "their" guy gets caught.

The 'fraud' is against other clean athletes.

When rider X -who is juiced - wins large race and gets a lucrative endorsement contract to wear/drive/promote a certain product that is fraudulent to that company and to other athletes.

 

[the truth.]

if we read it
a max of 10 years.

So they are on the right path.
If a coach feeds dope to a team of junior riders- endangering their health/future- Sure 10 years matches the crime.

lesser crimes- lesser jail times.
No pro doper is going to do a massive stretch but I am truly delighted that the law of the land is policing our sport-

what our governing body has failed to do

 

[Galic Ho]

Brilliant money-saving idea on the part of the Austrian government. With no pro or elite athletes among their population, they won't have to fund an Olympic team.

Genius!

The Australian government was paying $50,000 for a gold medal win at the Olympics. Kate Allen, Melbournite could not make the aussie womens triathlon team (best in the world) and decided to switch nationality to her husbands home nation of Austria. She outsprinted Lorreta Harrop in the last 100 metres in Athens 2004, bridging a 2 minute deficit on the run leg.

Gold medal for adopted country and $1 million payout by the Austrian government. Austria takes winning seriously. Hope that changes your understanding. Also, who rules Alpine downhill skiing? Bobsled? Nah, Austria has a crap winter Olympic team, Australia can beat them! But we all know that is a a fallacy.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that Doctors are the one's who are often forgetten in this scenario. They are more hidden than the riders, they are the "masterminds" of the doping underworld.

They should be targeted by the legal system, if not already. Rather than banning them for practicing, send them to jail. If there are no doctors to provide these illegal drugs, then the riders will have trouble cheating. The riders are the chess pieces in the doctors games. for the doctors, the more riders they have win, the more money they will get.

Of course, the riders will still try without doctors, but who will monitor their crit levels? Who will provide them with the undetectable products? The cyclists surely do not have the most up to date knowledge of doping, they must get this from a doctor, or some kind of quasi-specialist.

I think the doping problem is not the riders de-frauding their competitors, because the riders who are caught often say "they all do it too, it's not cheating if they all do it". If the Omerta exists, or, if all pro cyclists have some idea who is cheating, and the extent of cheating, then the concept of fraud does not exist in this sport.

I believe, get to the source of the problem. The doctors. Of course, the riders should be punished for cheating, cheats are cheats, send them to jail, i doubt it will stop doping tho. I think increased punishments do not work, because the probablity of getting caught is so small, in ALL sports.

Narcotics officers don't target the people doing drugs, or the petty dealers, they target the ones producing the drugs, the source of the problem.

 

[rata de sentina]

I think that Doctors are the one's who are often forgetten in this scenario. They are more hidden than the riders, they are the "masterminds" of the doping underworld. .....

Narcotics officers don't target the people doing drugs, or the petty dealers, they target the ones producing the drugs, the source of the problem.

Spot on comment. It bemuses me that more effort hasn't been put into this as it seems pretty logical to me.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Spot on comment. It bemuses me that more effort hasn't been put into this as it seems pretty logical to me.

What's logical to you and what's logical to most are universes apart.

 

[Hugh Januss]

What's logical to you and what's logical to most are universes apart.

Yeah, I guess you're right, it's pretty illogical to go after the doping doctors!

Barkeep, I'll have some of what he is smoking.

 

[Not Riding Enough]

The campaign to stop people from using drugs for fun by putting them in jail has been a total failure. Attempting to stop people from using drugs for money by the same means has even less chance of success, but will just criminalise another group of people, leaving the state to pick up the tab for their incarceration.

Waste of time and money replicating in sport a policy that we know doesn't work in society as a whole.

I do agree with your first para. I'm not sure if I agree with the second. Precisely for the reason you first stated that cycling is a game. Albeit a complicated game that effects the livelyhood of many. You can set much more specific rules for a game than you can for society as whole, and it is much easier to walk away if you don't like them.

As game the rules should be set to what it should be not what realistically can be enforced. Granted, with out better ways of catching cheats and ways of punishing those that encourgage and enable it, it will go on but you have to try and you have to have ideals.

I don't think that jail terms will stop this but perhaps drive the price up of the enablers and perhaps put it out of reach of more people. Also as mentioned before stope even more people speaking out.

I have to admire the motivation of making it a criminal offence though.

 

[poupou]

The campaign to stop people from using drugs for fun by putting them in jail has been a total failure. Attempting to stop people from using drugs for money by the same means has even less chance of success, but will just criminalise another group of people, leaving the state to pick up the tab for their incarceration.

Waste of time and money replicating in sport a policy that we know doesn't work in society as a whole.

Yes you are right, but it's true for all other crimes. Should we stop to fight them because murder, rap, ... will still exist despite law?

Maybe the best way to achieve it is to remove incitative to dope... no money, no podium, just go back to Baron Coubertin "l'important c'est de participer"

 

[poupou]

I think that Doctors are the one's who are often forgetten in this scenario. They are more hidden than the riders, they are the "masterminds" of the doping underworld.

They should be targeted by the legal system, if not already. Rather than banning them for practicing, send them to jail. If there are no doctors to provide these illegal drugs, then the riders will have trouble cheating. The riders are the chess pieces in the doctors games. for the doctors, the more riders they have win, the more money they will get.

I'm sure for France and Germany, they already have laws which are less favorable for people who helps to dope than for doped athletes.
Seems the same in Italia with conviction of Ferrari and other doctors or facilitors.
Spain has adopted similar laws after Puerto.

By criminalising doping, it's easier to find the facilitators. Every caught athlete is prosecuted and has to explain how he obtained the drugs. Without answers he becomes an accomplice of his providers or facilitators making himself eligible to a much more risky penalty.

Edit:
In France, facilitators could be punished with 5 years (7 if young athletes involved) in jail and a fine of 75.000 euros

 

[my username is flish]

Should we stop to fight them because murder, rap, ... will still exist despite law?

QUOTE]

Rap is a crime?....hmmm, you may have a point.

(sorry, serious topic/discussion going on but I couldn't resist it)

 

[python]

criminalizing doping could be effective if properly implemented. but it is not necessarily the solution. almost 50 posts in this thread and not one mentioned that the workable solution to any problem in a civil society usually involves combining punitive measures with incentives- carrots with sticks.

prison terms for doping facilitators and athletes are the extreme of punitive and i am sure could be justified in some cases. but what about education, incentives for cooperation and admissions, guarantees of privacy and confidentiality for whistle blowers, hefty financial rewards for exposing doping chemistry and procedures, increased antidoping research, perks for the pharma companies that market new drugs with anti-doping in mind etc etc.

i am not against the austrian initiative in principle but the thing that worries me with criminalizing doping is overreaching with more good intentions without the clear prospect for deterrence and improvement.

we need safeguards against overzealous bureaucrats, righteous functionaries and vindictive officials who could misapply the new law as an outlet to their own inadequacies and insecurities. plenty of those. and at the end if another doping athlete gets thrown in prison whilst the doctor who sold the dope and the secret protocol walks free what good is the new law

 

[poupou]

Should we stop to fight them because murder, rap, ... will still exist despite law?

QUOTE]

Rap is a crime?....hmmm, you may have a point.

(sorry, serious topic/discussion going on but I couldn't resist it)

Yes when it's done like that rap singer "singing" his national anthem according to some people who cannot laugh of a such funny mistake

 

[131313]

How is it fraud when they're all on the juice anyway?

The only people being fooled are those daft enough to believe there's anyone clean in the top echelon of pro sports.

To those people, I have this bridge you might be interested in...

That's a pretty disappointing comment from the EIC of Cyclingnews. "Anyone" is a strong word, and I certainly don't believe it's correct. As someone who competes against some who are in the top echelon it's certainly fraud against me, and I know I'm not doping. I also strongly believe that a few who are in the 'top echelon' are also clean, if top 20 UCI ranking counts.

I think your comments are a real affront to anyone trying to make a living as a clean athlete.

I also think the analogy to recreational drugs is a poor one. We aren't talking about 'drug problems' we're talking about fraud. When fraud gets to a big enough amount, governments get involved. Funny thing is, in the US the existing statutes would allow for prosecution, though I don't know if it's ever happened.

The Austrian 'law' seems to be a bit of posturing and not much else.

 

[Not Riding Enough]

criminalizing doping could be effective if properly implemented. but it is not necessarily the solution. almost 50 posts in this thread and not one mentioned that the workable solution to any problem in a civil society usually involves combining punitive measures with incentives- carrots with sticks.

prison terms for doping facilitators and athletes are the extreme of punitive and i am sure could be justified in some cases. but what about education, incentives for cooperation and admissions, guarantees of privacy and confidentiality for whistle blowers, hefty financial rewards for exposing doping chemistry and procedures, increased antidoping research, perks for the pharma companies that market new drugs with anti-doping in mind etc etc.

i am not against the austrian initiative in principle but the thing that worries me with criminalizing doping is overreaching with more good intentions without the clear prospect for deterrence and improvement.

we need safeguards against overzealous bureaucrats, righteous functionaries and vindictive officials who could misapply the new law as an outlet to their own inadequacies and insecurities. plenty of those. and at the end if another doping athlete gets thrown in prison whilst the doctor who sold the dope and the secret protocol walks free what good is the new law

I don't disagree with your carrots but the thread is specifically about jail terms for doping, so it is no real wonder that posts have not been more encompassing of solving the issue as a whole.