Ban Team Time Trials ?

[Libertine Seguros]

The TTT relay race. Each rider rides an equal distance and needs to pass the team bidon on to the next teammate [rolling starts] and so on until the last rider (The GC one) takes it to the finish. All riders on the team get the same finish time.

The closest we've got to this was the 1975 Peace Race, which opened up with a relay race in Berlin, with a 7km course being done as a relay by each of the team's six riders. Can't tell if it was done as a shuttle (like the luge team races) or as a genuine relay, with hand slings or whatever to tag people in, but it was kind of weird, as riders would be given their individual leg times but the stage win was based on the team, so although the Italian team won, Hungary's István Szlipcsevics wore the leader's jersey on stage 2 for setting the fastest lap and the GC was set as though it had been a prologue.

 

[lemon cheese cake]

I'm not a fan of TTTs in terms of how they can effect the GC standings, however they are still a part of cycling whether they are long, short, whole teams, split teams, in a stage race or a standalone evebt. If the riders in the team aren't performing well in the TTT, then maybe they should look at how they can improve their ability at it. Even if it's to limit their losses, due to not being as financially strong as one that can spend hours in a windtunnel, rather than going to win.

 

[rallybanana]

I would like to see a new format where the time is taken individually (at the very least for GC), so it doesn't matter if a team ends up with two, four or seven riders together at the end.

I think it was like that in Tour Méditerranéen in 2004.

I wonder if the Paris-Nice organizers read this thread and liked this post

 

[Netserk]

I certainly think it's a far superior format, and it really delivered last year. It also allows for a more demanding route, like in the example of Mont Faron.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Every stage/race should be a team trial. Although I would mix it up a bit by having some of them all start at the same time.

 

[Cookster15]

I like TTTs but only early in grand tours. Not in one week stage races.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

"When should Team Time Trials be permitted?"

Answer:

When they're introduced in a GT at Mickey Mouse distances, like the one of as today in La Vuelta; A circus freak show distance where you sit between two chairs; With neurotic fear of daring to go against the flow, ruin a GC, etc., but still wanna have it.

If you are going to introduce a TTT in a GT, then it should be banned with such half-baked solutions.

I am a huge admirer of the grueling TTTs in GTs that existed before.
Where it was a 'main event' on par with the best mountain stages.
Where there were nerves and anticipation, tense atmosphere, suspense and excitement in the days leading up to.
Where it was a sport for the top photographers in the TV helicopters to zoom in on the weak links in the chain.
How the teams regrouped, turned shifts, for how long, when and where on the route, with which riders, etc.

And then the very best part - when it was close to collapsing, where riders are over the limit, where it breaks or carries. And where it could have cruel consequences if the patterns, strategy and micro planning was wrong, apart from other things happening on the route while things went on.
As well as several other things.

A TTT that all mattered and where you had to be prepared into tiny details.

But now huge economic forces have come onto the scene.
Which gather the best in fewer teams.
And then the logic has obviously become completely different.

Regrettable.

 

[PetPaima]

To honor the greatest team event in history of cycling, I'd love seeing a GT (any GT) to start off with a 100 km time trial for 4-man teams (each team could split their octet the way they want). Yes, it could produce several minutes of difference between GC riders. Yes, it could lead team's mountain domestiques being fewer in number, Yes, it could change a lot of GC dynamics.

All the better for that.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

To honor the greatest team event in history of cycling, I'd love seeing a GT (any GT) to start off with a 100 km time trial for 4-man teams (each team could split their octet the way they want). Yes, it could produce several minutes of difference between GC riders. Yes, it could lead team's mountain domestiques being fewer in number, Yes, it could change a lot of GC dynamics.

All the better for that.

Well, to me the 4 men 100k TTT is still another ball game, not really applicable for GTs

But surely deeply missing in action in WC's.
Like a "Femmila" 50k cross country skiing event, not as today, but one by one and the elongated display of real suffering beyond boundaries.

I'd guess clinical stuff reasons put at stop on those kind of events.

However, if you have faith that things are mostly going in the right direction with honesty here, then I see no reason to hold back here.

Neither with 4x 100k TTT national teams in WC or e.g. a near 70k 2005 TdF Tours-Blois, or similar proper GT TTTs.

Ofc it's still the big WT team economic backup question and how much it would affect for am early static GC settle in a GT. But a silent advice to the organizers; have real courage. This could bring the popularity back with some unexpected scenarios and so on. And just the displays in themselves, with trained heliTV cams, knowing the exact tasks, not to forget.

 

[Vinther1991]

I want a TTT in the third week of the Tour de France on the Col de la Loze descent. Teams should only start 30 sec apart, and it should be third rider over the line that counts.

Joking aside, I like TTTs, but not if they are too decisive. A short one early in a grand tour every 3-4 years and I am happy.

 

[proffate]

To honor the greatest team event in history of cycling, I'd love seeing a GT (any GT) to start off with a 100 km time trial for 4-man teams (each team could split their octet the way they want). Yes, it could produce several minutes of difference between GC riders. Yes, it could lead team's mountain domestiques being fewer in number, Yes, it could change a lot of GC dynamics.

All the better for that.

only makes sense if there's also a salary cap

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I want a TTT in the third week of the Tour de France on the Col de la Loze descent. Teams should only start 30 sec apart, and it should be third rider over the line that counts.

That's on purpose, ruining my point!

Joking aside, I like TTTs, but not if they are too decisive. A short one early in a grand tour every 3-4 years and I am happy.

In that case I'd prefer to skip those days with non-purpose small distance TTTs of which are not decicive demanding tons of preparation and only decicive part is due to crashes, mechanicals or misfortunes. I'll never become a fan of such "artificial events".

A TTT distance that really matters, leading to excitement, tense nerves for audience, riders, mechanics, DC's, journalists, everyone days up to. A well prepared team tactic using given riders at given time spots, regrouping for change in terrain, every rider being a 100% honest about current capabilities - and for the viewer, the very tiny deviations and small cracks, some able to close the wound other times a domino effect in the making - each riders TT position on straight flat parts, hairy corners, etc... where every detal matters much more than today.

Of course it doesn't help if a 2013 WC TT pancake flat route is designed, it has to be a number of different challenges along the way, which give different types of riders advantages and others where it really hurts.


However, I can surely follow the subsequential issues in a world with UAE and Visma, having the strongest TT riders for every terrain

Personally I would like to watch that kind of daring every now and then from GT organizers with courage.

I remember in early 90ies (some may disqualify my reasoning for mentioning that specific decade) a super long TTT, I think it was +80k where everybody counted on Once, as the route and distance just suited every rider on a super strong Once team, but it went to a thrilling battle and Once lost and I think the victory went to MG by extremely close margin, this over a +90mins grueling battle, besides another team in the pool for victory. And as it was underway: what a journey and rollercoaster for the viewers!
Edit: And Yes, especially Rominger and Escartin were big time loosers that day (AFAIR), but the scenes, the suffering and the tense moments were all worth it.

 

[Oldman]

Every stage/race should be a team trial. Although I would mix it up a bit by having some of them all start at the same time.

Nascar has a version of that on the Superspeedways. 20 car pileups at 200 mph is a typical occurrence but sadistically fun to watch. A cycling version would be the same thing except no one walks away from crashes. At least not with their kit intact.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Does anyone care much for TTT’s ?
If I want to watch such a thing I will watch a team pursuit.

Now individual tt’s I am a fan of, and I’d like to see longer ones in the tour. I actually prefer to watch a good tt instead of a crappy ‘transition stage’ or sprint stage most of the time

 

[Charlyghoul]

Also
This years tour finish > last day individual tt > the usual procession

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Well, to me the 4 men 100k TTT is still another ball game, not really applicable for GTs

But surely deeply missing in action in WC's.
Like a "Femmila" 50k cross country skiing event, not as today, but one by one and the elongated display of real suffering beyond boundaries.

I'd guess clinical stuff reasons put at stop on those kind of events.

However, if you have faith that things are mostly going in the right direction with honesty here, then I see no reason to hold back here.

Neither with 4x 100k TTT national teams in WC or e.g. a near 70k 2005 TdF Tours-Blois, or similar proper GT TTTs.

Ofc it's still the big WT team economic backup question and how much it would affect for am early static GC settle in a GT. But a silent advice to the organizers; have real courage. This could bring the popularity back with some unexpected scenarios and so on. And just the displays in themselves, with trained heliTV cams, knowing the exact tasks, not to forget.

Do you believe that there is an audience for them that makes the level of specialised training necessary for it to be a skill and art in itself, rather than a discipline in which you trust the strongest riders can cover up the mistakes that come from lack of co-ordinated fluidity? How many events a year do you think are commercially sustainable, or justifiable to mainstream road teams? And how many days specialised training is it reasonable for a team to dedicate to that number of events? I note what @Oldman (was it him?) said about early-season training and preparation for contingency team efforts to reconnect the team leader with the peloton, but I get the impression that your dream is of something more specialised.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Do you believe that there is an audience for them that makes the level of specialised training necessary for it to be a skill and art in itself,

I fully understand an entire new generation to cycling asks "do we really need TTTs?"

But when you as a viewer have experienced more exceptional longer TTTs in GCs with an entire different starting point and talks and analysis from everybody days up to, and what's really at stake - the event turns into something different;

As a prolounged experience with nerves all the way, the viewers' senses become all more lit, especially with excellent TV heli cam shootings, delivering images to the viewer with fine opportunities for studying the symbiosis of each team down to the smallest details.

It is something completely different than today on such a short TTT, where X and Y riders sit up without costing anything, where on the long TTTs everything is at stake.

rather than a discipline in which you trust the strongest riders can cover up the mistakes that come from lack of co-ordinated fluidity?

It doesn't have to be a contradiction, although I see your point.

How many events a year do you think are commercially sustainable, or justifiable to mainstream road teams?

My experience is that just one such event can bring great interest and commercial success, which can spread like wildfire, so that other races get a taste for it.

Of course it's also a risk that it will go the other way, especially in a protectionist world where you have the defenses up and the money has become very big and you are too afraid to take the riscs.

And how many days specialised training is it reasonable for a team to dedicate to that number of events? I note what @Oldman (was it him?) said about early-season training and preparation for contingency team efforts to reconnect the team leader with the peloton, but I get the impression that your dream is of something more specialised.

No, we've been there before and what's mentioned here reflects reality at that time, more or less

 

[PetPaima]

Well, to me the 4 men 100k TTT is still another ball game, not really applicable for GTs

It would only be applicable as a 1st stage with full teams.

With tough enough time limit to avoid any quartet TOTALLY slacking off.... But not so tough that an honest effort gets you eliminated.

I am afraid that with today's generation of fans, it only would attract the effort and training if part of a grand tour. Also apparently, UCI is more interested in making world championships a some kind of circus. BMX, Madison are not even sports...

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

If I should omit the prehistoric part of me and the fact that you can't turn back time in a world of hard competition on the streaming platforms nowadays, I really liked recent years TTT format governing that each single rider time counts, and put in a long TTT in a GT and see how it goes. My point is that due to everything is at stake it could become an inlet piece for the viewers, especially with opportunities to zoom in at the symbiosis of each team while the race is underway.

Ofc with present state of affairs that UAE and Visma could ruin delicate suspence in the GC battle, leaving pure climbers with GC potential in the dust.
But I would warmly welcome if a GT organizer had the courage to just try it out and see how things develop, if just fot once in a while

And then another wish to the genie:
Please bring back the 4 men 100k national TTT in WCs!

 

[Oldman]

I fully understand an entire new generation to cycling asks "do we really need TTTs?"

But when you as a viewer have experienced more exceptional longer TTTs in GCs with an entire different starting point and talks and analysis from everybody days up to, and what's really at stake - the event turns into something different;

As a prolounged experience with nerves all the way, the viewers' senses become all more lit, especially with excellent TV heli cam shootings, delivering images to the viewer with fine opportunities for studying the symbiosis of each team down to the smallest details.

It is something completely different than today on such a short TTT, where X and Y riders sit up without costing anything, where on the long TTTs everything is at stake.


It doesn't have to be a contradiction, although I see your point.


My experience is that just one such event can bring great interest and commercial success, which can spread like wildfire, so that other races get a taste for it.

Of course it's also a risk that it will go the other way, especially in a protectionist world where you have the defenses up and the money has become very big and you are too afraid to take the riscs.

No, we've been there before and what's mentioned here reflects reality at that time, more or less

You hit on the real possibility of improving a fan's viewing experience and knowledge to make this a very-watched discipline. Watching 5 continuous hours of Vuelta/Giro/Tour landscape is for the few. If you had a consequential TTT stage that was produced by the media properly it could be very compelling.
Specifically:
1)Assign a drone for each team's coverage.
2)Have helmet cams and sound on several riders on each team and get permission to broadcast that pulse/wattage data/speed in real time.
3)Place POV cameras at low angles at key corners and transitions to get the real feel of the speed.
4)Accentuate production graphics and commentary on what they already did pretty well today: virtual GC consequences, personal rider bios and their specific contribution to highlight the domestiques' part of the performance. Create new heroes in the process.
Produce this already available technology into something less clinical with good direction and it can become a featured stage rather than an aberrant distraction. Superbike GPS, Motocross, action sports...hell; even PBR Bull riding does alot of this and newbies are astounded at the required skills and courage necessary to perform them. Then make it a regular GT or 1 week race feature.

 

[houtdffan]

should be a 75km TTT held within the first 5 days of a GT

4th rider across is the time of the team

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I remember in early 90ies (some may disqualify my reasoning for mentioning that specific decade) a super long TTT, I think it was +80k where everybody counted on Once, as the route and distance just suited every rider on a super strong Once team, but it went to a thrilling battle and Once lost and I think the victory went to MG by extremely close margin, this over a +90mins grueling battle, besides another team in the pool for victory. And as it was underway: what a journey and rollercoaster for the viewers!
Edit: And Yes, especially Rominger and Escartin were big time loosers that day (AFAIR), but the scenes, the suffering and the tense moments were all worth it.

OK, so just found the concerned stage:

Tour de France 1993 Stage 4 (TTT) results

Tour de France 1993 Stage 4 (TTT) from Dinard to Avranches was won by Carlo Bomans before Wilfried Peeters and Mario Cipollini. Mario Cipollini was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

And then you had ITTs like this one:

Tour de France 1987 Stage 10 (ITT) results

Tour de France 1987 Stage 10 (ITT) from Saumur to Futuroscope was won by Stephen Roche before Charly Mottet and Jesper Skibby. Charly Mottet was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

OK, so certainly different times.

And at some point UCI skipping those TT distances as well as monsterous MT stages as e.g. the 1996 Tour Pamplona stage due to juicy things belonging at another forum.

And I don't deny, especially with the debate on the other forum, that there are still things to improve here (such as juicy mechanical things, small things that can make a devastating difference), but let's say that there was otherwise full confidence in the riders here, so why not give it a try.

Today's Vuelta TTT is IMO a completely unnecessary artificial poppet.

What speaks against the long distances can, admittedly, also be the timeframe for the necessary broadcasting surface.

If I should make a parallel here, it was the main reason why FIS dropped the classic "Femmila" 50k cross-country skiing discipline for a mass start, now with a completely different boring skiing technique consisting of a 45k common arm pole and the decision on the last dying kilometers. Something completely different to following the suffering of each individual ski athlete for hours, one by one; the main event to look forward to at the championships, together with the final 4x10k relay. The new artificial invention made me completely abandon the event as a viewer, it made as little sense to me as to watch today's TTT.

If I have to defend Unipublic's previous tendency to super-short TTTs as starters, then I actually liked them, as they worked as team presentations with the guiding by commentators. Where today each GT delivers on bloated team presentations few days ahead of race start.

 

[Rockestar_33]

I like TTT's more than ITT's honestly. They're a bit more chaotic and anything could happen. Like Sobrero's crash massively impacts Jai Hindley and Pellizzari's GC ambitions, he's probably the best time trialist of all of them and they could have been ahead of V-Lab if he hadn't crashed.

 

[Eagle_Alps]

As I wrote in the Vuelta stage 5 thread:
Despite the negativity about TTTs, the riders went full gas anyway. That alone makes it worth it.

 

[RedheadDane]

And then you had ITTs like this one:

Tour de France 1987 Stage 10 (ITT) results

Tour de France 1987 Stage 10 (ITT) from Saumur to Futuroscope was won by Stephen Roche before Charly Mottet and Jesper Skibby. Charly Mottet was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

You know we have established that 1987 - and everything before that - was a very long time ago.