My 2 cents - Like with many drugs it's often not taking them that's the problem - it's the abuse - taking more (and more) than is 'good' for you. And so I struggle with the notion that doing any of this stuff is ever anything but bad.
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Heck, take a look at EPO.
Let's say you're a rec cyclist and like to ride a lot of centuries, but are really suffering on some and want to do better. If you had a controlled and monitored program where you took your hematocrit from, say 41 to 47 using EPO, you'd see a big jump in your performance on the bike, both in your training and in your centuries. And as long as you were keeping hydrated, and had a professional of some sort keeping tabs on you, there is almost zero short or long term side-effects. There's actually very little difference between doing this, and spending your summer in Leadville, Colorado riding up Mt. Evans all the time. I'd even say it's almost as harmless as orange juice, to quote an infamous doctor.
The problem is, when it comes to competitive sports, it's completely, totally cheating.
Let's say you're a rec cyclist and like to ride a lot of centuries, but are really suffering on some and want to do better. If you had a controlled and monitored program where you took your hematocrit from, say 41 to 47 using EPO, you'd see a big jump in your performance on the bike, both in your training and in your centuries. And as long as you were keeping hydrated, and had a professional of some sort keeping tabs on you, there is almost zero short or long term side-effects. There's actually very little difference between doing this, and spending your summer in Leadville, Colorado riding up Mt. Evans all the time. I'd even say it's almost as harmless as orange juice, to quote an infamous doctor.
The problem is, when it comes to competitive sports, it's completely, totally cheating.
MLB is a USA domestic sport only. Therefore, it's only governing body is the GOBN(Good Ol' Boy Network)
For those that don't know.... the GOBN is a secret society in American of politicians and businessmen that does whatever it wants to at the expense of the American taxpayer. All behind closed doors. The only reason they made any drug policy for baseball at all was because the public had become wise to the rampant use of the juice and the clear. So, they throw the public a bone with a wimpy policy and call it a "Comprehensive Drug Policy".
I'm half serious.... half kidding.
Is this true?
For those that don't know.... the GOBN is a secret society in American of politicians and businessmen that does whatever it wants to at the expense of the American taxpayer. All behind closed doors. The only reason they made any drug policy for baseball at all was because the public had become wise to the rampant use of the juice and the clear. So, they throw the public a bone with a wimpy policy and call it a "Comprehensive Drug Policy".
I'm half serious.... half kidding.
Is this true?
baseball
the fence is 450 feet away from the player and the pitcher throws a rapid ball at 95 mph.
ukpaul said:
the fence is 450 feet away from the player and the pitcher throws a rapid ball at 95 mph.
slowoldman said:
I laugh every time some one gets all twisted up about doping in any professional sport. It's ALL a circus; it's entertainment. Athletes? What? Most of Hollywood is more real than ANY professional sport. I suppose I would get ****ed if President Obama and Prime Minister Brown were injecting steroids before a news conference on the Iraq war, but "professional" cycling, baseball, football, soccer and whatever is nothing more than entertainment. Yeah, they are grabbing for better records so they can earn more money and the only solution to that is to boycott the sport and the sponsors if the drug thing is such a bother. I love it when I hear some drunk guys in a bar getting all ****y about a baseball player or cyclist doping. WTF?
Alpe d'Huez said:
i think this is a perfectly reasonable possition.
it's your body, your responsibility to have the facts and make the choice. (excluding minors of course)
are there those that aren't really smart enough to make an informed choice? absolutely. and that's probably why the so called experts try to jump in and use scare tactics.
but if we are free we need to be free to make our own judgments. those that screw up get darwined out. (oooh, am i really that cold? lol)
of course, a doctor that would prescribe epo so you can do century rides would probably be breaking the law or at least ethics, but hey, that hasn't stopped doctors from dosing athelets so why not regular people.
shawnrohrbach said:
I agree with you in part, all professional sports have sold their soul and become entertainment. That is precisely why I don't follow professional sports any longer (aside from cycling, I am a hypocrit in that regard). I suppose my initial anger came from the fact that I had a possible future in baseball but I don't cheat, never have, never will. I take pride in that fact. So I laugh at what it has become, I don't lose sleep over it. The "records" are neither commendable nor actual. I don't particularly care for Hollywood either and politicians deserve a special place in hell all to themselves, so I suppose we agree on most points.
I find that as I grow older I appreciate participation in sports more than viewing. I simply mourn the death of purity of sport and competition. Naivete, some would say, but I would like to see people compete on equal terms with their own God given ability. Some will succeed, some will fail. Cheats, in my opinion, have failed before they begin.
slowoldman said:
sigh, i try to ignore things, really i do.
i'm sorry, i can't sit back and stomach this holier than thou tripe.
hollywood, politicials, and pro athletes get your scorn, execpt for your precious cycling, becuase of some mythic, mystic, purituy issues.
and then you have to drag god into it.
somehow i think god would have a problem with you looking down your nose at people.
"i don't care for hollywood" is usually code for "i think they're all godless pinko perverts with no values and morals", followed by, "oh i have to run, my favorite show is on".
all politicians go to hell is code for "i don't really understand public policy so it's easier to just condemn them all".
and you're saying your failure in pursit of your "future in baseball" was because you refused to cheat? what cheating did you refuse to do? i'm puzzled by this if you are a slowoldman because i don't recall anyone of the boomer era of being accused of cheating. unless you think alcohol and hangovers help you hit.
and what do you all mean by pro sport being just "entertainment"? like pro wrestling with the out comes fixed? not on your life. there's to much money involved for that.
i had a future in baseball too.
had great breaking stuff, location and game smarts. but without a fastball i was only going so far.
i don't blame anybody.
jackhammer111 said:
Wow.... I guess it was my poor grammar. I had a future in baseball, it didn't come to fruition. That's it, no crying involved. I don't like cheating of any kind. I am a fan of cycling (admittedly hypocritical see post above). I don't care for Hollywood or politicians (I understand policy on a somewhat limited basis, as all in the public do), feel free to inject what you think that might mean. I agreed with the poster I quoted on sports becoming more entertainment based (eg: juiced balls in baseball for more homeruns, not fixed games). I long for competition that is based on God given talents (any sport, not just cycling). My relationship with God is none of your business. I am 44 years old, I refer to myself as old, some would agree, some wouldn't. I think that should about cover it.
"and what do you all mean by pro sport being just "entertainment"? like pro wrestling with the out comes fixed? not on your life. there's to much money involved for that."
You don't think pro cycling is fixed? you are indeed young. You got the money part right, and it's fixed for that very reason, something like the superbowl with the Seahawks and the Steelers. Fixing a sport is not typically as blatant as determining the winner up front; it is usually more subtle especially like a college football team in Washington State when their coach bet against them using the point spread. They may have won or lost, but the money was made if the spread was right and keeping a key player out or an injured player in might help ensure the spread. This is what keeps Pete Rose out of the hall of fame; he bet on baseball and when he did that he also may have had inside influence to drive the point spread or the final outcome. Also, two years ago, an NBA ref was accused and finally admitted to calling games the way he was told to. There are many ways of fixing pro cycling given the amount of promotional money there is. Look at all of the points where money can be made and reverse engineer the situation; i.e. King of the Mountain, Sprinters jersey, etc. and ask if whoever won (or lost) was "motivated" by something other than the pure love of sport (there is always a tear welling in my eye when I say that) And, fixing is not always driven by betting. Fixing a few games may force a trade of a player the manager or coach wants to dump. I can think of many instances where a cyclist was not helped by a team, lost miserably and then, oh my, is no longer on the team. Pure sport? hardly. More like a set up hatchet job.
You don't think pro cycling is fixed? you are indeed young. You got the money part right, and it's fixed for that very reason, something like the superbowl with the Seahawks and the Steelers. Fixing a sport is not typically as blatant as determining the winner up front; it is usually more subtle especially like a college football team in Washington State when their coach bet against them using the point spread. They may have won or lost, but the money was made if the spread was right and keeping a key player out or an injured player in might help ensure the spread. This is what keeps Pete Rose out of the hall of fame; he bet on baseball and when he did that he also may have had inside influence to drive the point spread or the final outcome. Also, two years ago, an NBA ref was accused and finally admitted to calling games the way he was told to. There are many ways of fixing pro cycling given the amount of promotional money there is. Look at all of the points where money can be made and reverse engineer the situation; i.e. King of the Mountain, Sprinters jersey, etc. and ask if whoever won (or lost) was "motivated" by something other than the pure love of sport (there is always a tear welling in my eye when I say that) And, fixing is not always driven by betting. Fixing a few games may force a trade of a player the manager or coach wants to dump. I can think of many instances where a cyclist was not helped by a team, lost miserably and then, oh my, is no longer on the team. Pure sport? hardly. More like a set up hatchet job.
slowoldman said:
i would just hope to get you to think about your evident propensity toward blanket condemnations.
if you think god gives talents what do you think god thinks of that?
it's not ok to trot out your belief in god and then claim that your beliefs are non of my business.
A lot of the magic goes when you grow older
I think as you are growing older you are realising that the world isn't as black and white as you once thought. A lot of the magic goes when you grow older. You get to see behind the curtain, and realise Santa is just your dad.
There never was this purity of sport and competition you long for.
http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersComService_2_MOLT/idUSL655603720080808
The thought that sport is less pure now than it used to be is pure nostalgia. Trust me, in the very early Tours de France, they used to cheat their arses off. In the 1904 Tour de France, 73 out of 88 competitors were disqualified for cheating. That is the equivalent of 150 riders being disqualified from the 2008 Tour!! So if anything, you could say there is less cheating now than ever before.
As for god-given talents, where do you draw the line on that. Does that mean that people shouldn't train at all? If so, should they be allowed to modify their diet? What about altitude training? carbon components? caffeine? Shaving your legs?
What about blood doping? That is just replacing your own blood. You're god given blood.
slowoldman said:
I think as you are growing older you are realising that the world isn't as black and white as you once thought. A lot of the magic goes when you grow older. You get to see behind the curtain, and realise Santa is just your dad.
There never was this purity of sport and competition you long for.
http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersComService_2_MOLT/idUSL655603720080808
The thought that sport is less pure now than it used to be is pure nostalgia. Trust me, in the very early Tours de France, they used to cheat their arses off. In the 1904 Tour de France, 73 out of 88 competitors were disqualified for cheating. That is the equivalent of 150 riders being disqualified from the 2008 Tour!! So if anything, you could say there is less cheating now than ever before.
As for god-given talents, where do you draw the line on that. Does that mean that people shouldn't train at all? If so, should they be allowed to modify their diet? What about altitude training? carbon components? caffeine? Shaving your legs?
What about blood doping? That is just replacing your own blood. You're god given blood.
jackhammer111 said:
Generalizations come in all shapes and sizes, I am guilty of that as are most others in some capacity. I really don't need your help, nor did I ask for it.
God given talents is an old figure of speech. Let it rest.
Again, my relationship with God is my business, not yours. Are we done?
boalio said:
I can appreciate what you are saying. I would argue that there had to be purity in sport at some time. But to me, cheating is as black and white as it comes. You choose to do it or not to do it. I have defined what I believe to be cheating before. As for God given talents, I would say use common sense to define it. If it is against the rules and you feel you have to justify it, I would say it is probably cheating. Seriously, we are all grown men and women (though some refuse to act like it), and you know what cheating is.
As for the blood doping question, really, don't trivialize it. Do you think it is cheating? Why even ask that question.
slowoldman said:
I thought I was showing evidence that there has always been some form of impurity.
slowoldman said:
As for blood doping, it wasn't meant as a real question just a little tongue in cheek comment on the dangers of trying to apply 'black and white' thinking to a world that isn't.
Just for the record, I'm not pro-cheating.
shawnrohrbach said:
ah.. i love the internet... research is so easy... i pretty much assume when i write something someone is going fact check me so i do a lot of fact checking myself.
i think you should too.
i like to say "everyone is entitled to there own opiions, they are not, however, entitle to their own facts"
from usa today "The dismissal of Washington football coach Rick Neuheisel in 2003 was in part for participating in an NCAA basketball pool and is indicative of how seriously the issue of sports betting is taken."
he wasn't trying to fix anything. he was being held to a strick rule. if you are a college coach you are forbidden by ncaa rules from betting on any college sport.
have no idea what you mean about Seahawks and the Steelers.
pete rose is, and always has been self serving scum. he should never even be allowed to see PICTURES of cooperstown, let alone be enshrined there, because of what he did, even though he had a hall of fame career. if he evens says the word "cooperstown", a fan should be allowed to slap his face.
but one scandal since '29 doesn't make baseball a fixed sport.
the nba official went to jail for providing inside information to a gambler and betting on games he officiated. there were times he actually failed to fix the outcome on some games he bet on. if you are inferring he was told by the nba to fix out comes, there's no proof of that. he made the accusation after he'd been convicted but before he was sentenced.
it's the only such occurrence in nba history.
ironically, in the nba case a case and a fixing case involving university of toledo players, it was bookmakers that alerted law enforcement that something was wrong.
they can see last minute money getting spread around and if last minute money wins against them, they don't like it.
mlb, nfl and nba also have their own investigators who's job it is to look for evidence of fix.
what you say about cycling is confusing to me. can you be more specific? i think riders get kom or sprinter or what ever because they like to be a winner but also because they get paid extra for doing so. nothing underhanded. you can't fix the koa to someone if i want it and i can outrun the other guy. that's what i mean by too much money at stake in pro sport for fixing most of the time. most pros that can affect the outcome are making too much money to be bought off by bookies. what's a bookie going to offer lebron james to throw a game when doing so could affect huge amount of future income? there's huge money in winning. it's hard to make someone lose with so much up for grabs for winners. what do you bribe a rich man with?
as for managers fixing games to for the trade of a player they don't like, it's hard enough for a manager to fix a game. most times they're frustrated by players that want to win. just ask pete rose. he lost money even betting on baseball. on top of that your saying a manager can fix in such a way to make a particular player look bad? wow.. that's subtlety for you.
as for cycling "hatchet jobs"? you're talking about the personal politics of team sports. all team sports or groups of humans period are going to exhibit signs of our ape mammal evolution that are not pretty to look at
.
i'm still convinced that in all pro sports, the power of self interest, money, prestige, pride among those competitors that can affect outcomes, overpowers "fixing" of outcomes and among leagues and owners, the price of allowing corruption is so great that they will be vigilant.
pete rose needs to be the example of what happens.
i don't like blanket condemnations.
i have no idea where to send your for purity.
btw.. at 59.. illusions of being young are pretty much gone. best i can angle for young for my age.
ukpaul said:
STEROIDS - that's it really. Baseball is lame, but if you have lots of muscle, you can slug the ball out of the park.
Your theory raises an interesting cultural issue having to do with certain perceptions between Western societies, which I have come to ponder first hand having moved from NE America, which some call WASP society, to the Mediterranean.boalio said:
I've come to believe now that there are two in many ways conflicting cultures in the Western World: one Calvanist and Puritanical, the result of post-Reformation and Enlightenment phenomena; and the other let's say Mediterranean, where the ideals of the former have never enjoyed much popularity...
And I don't mean to belittle one and praise the other, but you see in the Mediterranean culture ethical behavior is a much less rigid concept then in the Northern protestant societies. Given the coruption and flagrent immorality among the first two estates that led to the birth of more democratic ideas in the post-Enlightenment era, the protestant societies have always tried to live up to such ideals, whereas in the southern Mediterranean cultures those values have never been imprinted upon society with such vigor and so have taken on less weight among the people. As it's often said here in Italy, for example, if the mafia exists in Sicily its because the insular society places more confidence in it than the government in Rome.
Why do I make these points? Because the idea of purity in sport has never been part of a Mediterranean world view, given that the same vigor mentioned above associated with the protestant world view doesn't impact much on its society. Of course there are many Mediterranean folk who desire clean sport, just as there are many Sicilains who detest the mafia and wish for Rome to defeat it. But I really do think now that as a base culture, they assume (and from having been brought up to see things this way) that in general much corruption exists and that what in a puritanical culture is deamed "cheating" is for them simply being sly and slyness isn't, in there way of thinking, necessarilly unethical.
If you don't believe me go live in Naples for a while and then, I don't know, live in the American Mid-West. I gaurantee what I'm trying to propose won't seem so far fetched.
In the end, its about perceptions and cultural mores. Not that people in reality live more ethically in one culture and less so in the other, but one does promote a greater level of "innocence," while the other has never seen reality as being black and white but much more nuanced and elastic. I mean I was told a great story once about young US GI's at Naples in 45 distributing chocolate and cigarettes to the Neopolitans. While they were doing this some Neopolitan kids from about 6-10 years of age dismembered their jeep to resell the parts at black market value! The naive GI's couldn't believe they had been swindled with such professionalism by those scrawny and tanned little kids. Other than believing in Santa or not knowing what's behind the curtain. So the very concepts of "purity" and "innocence" seems rediculous and naive to them and those who try and live by them are precieved as candid (candido), where the term has a negative cultural value. Whereas back on the farm in the Mid-West, being candid is considered a positive traight.
This has always explained to me why almost everybody here that I have ever met always has assumed that "they are all on dope," whereas most people from the puritanical cultures believe at heart just the opposite. Which view do I believe is correct? Honestly I think both distort reality by exaggeration. But based on my experiences I'd say the former is nearer to the reality, but without making an alibi for doping.
rhubroma said:
Amazingly well put. As an australian, with a european background (italian, french and spanish. Wonder why i like cycling so much? hehe
), who is currently living in the US, i constantly see these contrasts in the view of life. I really do think it is a big reason that cycling is perceived as 'dirtier' than a lot of mainstream US sports.Another big reason is the difference in style of the media between the US and europe. The emotion level in european news, especially sports I think is much more 'sensational'. Europeans love to read stories that everyone, other than their heroes, are dirty degenerates. They love the view that 'everyone in the sport is doping', except X, he is a god who rises above them all. Americans never question the purity of their sports, only individuals.
P.S. Take his word for it. You don't want to go live in Naples. Hehe.
jackhammer111 said:ah.. i love the internet... research is so easy... i pretty much assume when i write something someone is going fact check me so i do a lot of fact checking myself.
i think you should too.
i like to say "everyone is entitled to there own opiions, they are not, however, entitle to their own facts"
from usa today "The dismissal of Washington football coach Rick Neuheisel in 2003 was in part for participating in an NCAA basketball pool and is indicative of how seriously the issue of sports betting is taken."
he wasn't trying to fix anything. he was being held to a strick rule. if you are a college coach you are forbidden by ncaa rules from betting on any college sport.
have no idea what you mean about Seahawks and the Steelers.
pete rose is, and always has been self serving scum. he should never even be allowed to see PICTURES of cooperstown, let alone be enshrined there, because of what he did, even though he had a hall of fame career. if he evens says the word "cooperstown", a fan should be allowed to slap his face.
but one scandal since '29 doesn't make baseball a fixed sport.
the nba official went to jail for providing inside information to a gambler and betting on games he officiated. there were times he actually failed to fix the outcome on some games he bet on. if you are inferring he was told by the nba to fix out comes, there's no proof of that. he made the accusation after he'd been convicted but before he was sentenced.
it's the only such occurrence in nba history.
ironically, in the nba case a case and a fixing case involving university of toledo players, it was bookmakers that alerted law enforcement that something was wrong.
they can see last minute money getting spread around and if last minute money wins against them, they don't like it.
mlb, nfl and nba also have their own investigators who's job it is to look for evidence of fix.
what you say about cycling is confusing to me. can you be more specific? i think riders get kom or sprinter or what ever because they like to be a winner but also because they get paid extra for doing so. nothing underhanded. you can't fix the koa to someone if i want it and i can outrun the other guy. that's what i mean by too much money at stake in pro sport for fixing most of the time. most pros that can affect the outcome are making too much money to be bought off by bookies. what's a bookie going to offer lebron james to throw a game when doing so could affect huge amount of future income? there's huge money in winning. it's hard to make someone lose with so much up for grabs for winners. what do you bribe a rich man with?
as for managers fixing games to for the trade of a player they don't like, it's hard enough for a manager to fix a game. most times they're frustrated by players that want to win. just ask pete rose. he lost money even betting on baseball. on top of that your saying a manager can fix in such a way to make a particular player look bad? wow.. that's subtlety for you.
as for cycling "hatchet jobs"? you're talking about the personal politics of team sports. all team sports or groups of humans period are going to exhibit signs of our ape mammal evolution that are not pretty to look at
.
i'm still convinced that in all pro sports, the power of self interest, money, prestige, pride among those competitors that can affect outcomes, overpowers "fixing" of outcomes and among leagues and owners, the price of allowing corruption is so great that they will be vigilant.
pete rose needs to be the example of what happens.
i don't like blanket condemnations.
i have no idea where to send your for purity.
btw.. at 59.. illusions of being young are pretty much gone. best i can angle for young for my age.
Not sure what your point is. Mine is fairly simple; any sports is easily fixed for a variety of "motivations". There is no pure sport. There might be some purists who participate, but even amateur sport can be easily fixed, and often is. And, no, your internet research did not turn up the "college football coach from Washington State". Keep looking and perhaps you will find it.
Not quite on topic, but the feds in the U.S. just arrested 70+ people in a steroids investigation.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iSaKgVQb-aGG5HNULMg3CcpYpmZgD98ERU9O0
Some more detail:
http://www.fortbendnow.com/2009/05/27/38202
The junk is everywhere.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iSaKgVQb-aGG5HNULMg3CcpYpmZgD98ERU9O0
Some more detail:
http://www.fortbendnow.com/2009/05/27/38202
The junk is everywhere.
shawnrohrbach said:
my point is that your point is crap.
it is not easily fixed. it is very hard to fix sports outcomes and it's rare, and you make no rational argument that pro sport should be disparaged as "just entertainment" as though it were the WWE.
i'm accusing you of making your argument based on facts not in evidence.
you claim a washington coach bet against his team using the point spread. i don't find any evidence that that is true. if you do, then trot it out.
you claim an nba official called games the way he was told. i find no credible evidence of that being true.
if your opinions are based on things that are in fact not actual, they have no value.
i made no claim that sport, or anything for that matter, is pure. even the soap box derby had a cheating scandal that i know of.
i was originally commenting on someone's blanket condemnation of sports on some kind of purity grounds.
i was making the point that such a condemnation is unjustified.
i stand by that.
jackhammer111 said:
While not the same kettle of fish, the post-TdF crits are definitely fixed. The TdF podium finishers always win and these guys are no crit riders.
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