Baseline Hematocrit- Will we ever know

[PosterBill]

Who the guys were that got the biggest gains by using EPO? Sure we can infer that most of the winners like LA got the huge boosts from low baselines but what about guys like Andy Schleck or Levi Leimpheimer.

It could go a long way in explaining a few things. Both Schleck and Levi appear to be falling off the face of the planet. Could they have had the low levels that gave them such huge artificial jumps in performance. I am sure there must of been many other donkeys turned racehorse. Is there anyway to have that information? Could it possibly tell something? Or does the baseline vary so wildly that reliable info cannot be gained. From a very admittedly novice POV..it would seem logical to go back through the profiles and look at data like this.

 

[hmronnow]

For general population, crit fluctuates a lot. Through my occupation I have annual health checks including blood test, and mine has varied from 39-52 over the years. I am therefore not sure it is possible to say that a given individual/rider has a baseline that stays the same over the course of his career.

This of course completely non-scientific. There may scientific statistics disproving or supporting this.

 

[del1962]

From what I understand, HCT levels should be lower in trained athletes than couch potatoes. So when you start training your level will come down.

 

[zbranko]

Who the guys were that got the biggest gains by using EPO?

Ugrumov

30% (Not a typo) -> 60%

 

[LaFlorecita]

From what I understand, HCT levels should be lower in trained athletes than couch potatoes. So when you start training your level will come down.

That doesnt make any sense to me. More red blood cells = more oxigen transport so it would make sense trained athletes who are in good shape should have higher HCT levels

 

[del1962]

That doesnt make any sense to me. More red blood cells = more oxigen transport so it would make sense trained athletes who are in good shape should have higher HCT levels

Training also increases bllod plasma to a greater extent so a lower percentage

 

[Gerippe]

That doesnt make any sense to me. More red blood cells = more oxigen transport so it would make sense trained athletes who are in good shape should have higher HCT levels

More hemoglobin and erythrocyte, but even more blood volume. So the hct decrease
Also capillary gas exchange and the muscle oxygen supply can work better at a low hct.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Hct may be lower but Hgb mass would be higher, I would hazard a guess. Even in clean cyclists, than the couch potato.

 

[gillan1969]

sorry...non-scientist question..

why isn't somebody with a low Hct just crap? Does the body adapt to more efficient with less oxygen?

yours confused

 

[Race Radio]

A few points on this

Individuals who get their Hct tested often at a normal hospital will see large swings in their Hct, but these are more due to the variable machines and calibrations. The UCI and WADA use the same equipment, calibrated the same. Variance is supposed to be .03

Hct will drop under heavy training and racing. It is important to measure in the off season, when the rider is not training hard. Armstrong's was 39.3

It is not unusual for a rider who has been using EPO to have their Hct crash when they stop. This happened to Pantani and Urgamov.

In the non-enhanced world Hct does not have an effect on performance. You can have a great rider who has a 39 and a slow rider who has a 49. It is not a measure like Vo2

 

[LaFlorecita]

Training also increases bllod plasma to a greater extent so a lower percentage

Okay, I was wrong then. Still it makes me wonder, what about trained athletes with a rather high HCT, it would be even higher if they stopped training? Aren't such high levels dangerous?

 

[del1962]

Okay, I was wrong then. Still it makes me wonder, what about trained athletes with a rather high HCT, it would be even higher if they stopped training? Aren't such high levels dangerous?

I would not have thought it would be dangerous, but I am not really qualified to comment.

 

[zigmeister]

The definitive answer is, we don't know.

Hence, why you need reliable and accurate tests to detect banned substances.

If we knew, then guys would be getting busted left/right with the passport. And how many passport cases have been started based of the history of blood values? Very few, all you can get is suspicion, not definitive.

Unfortunately, you have to get an admission, or a stone cold bust positive with testing. Because blood values are all over the map and vary from person to person, day to day etc...there are too many variables that affect them.

 

[Catwhoorg]

A well run passport serves 3 purposes.

1) catch the stupid/crzay dopers
2) limit the amount of doping (micro dosing rather than whole bags and EPO)
3) provide intelligence for further targeted testing

Now one can happily argue about if the UCI bippassport program is well run.


(personally I'd love to see a steroid panel included in a biopassport run by someone with no compelling interest in suppressing positives (say WADA) for every significant sport)

 

[D-Queued]

A well run passport serves 3 purposes.

1) catch the stupid/crzay dopers
2) limit the amount of doping (micro dosing rather than whole bags and EPO)
3) provide intelligence for further targeted testing

No (fixed typo) one can happily argue about if the UCI bippassport program is well run.


(personally I'd love to see a steroid panel included in a biopassport run by someone with no compelling interest in suppressing positives (say WADA) for every significant sport)

It depends on your point of view.

If the biopassport allows those who provide donations to bypass scrutiny, it is working fine.

If your perspective is that the UCI should be appearing to provide a flurry of activity, without actually catching anyone, it is also working fine.

It is a beautiful thing when seen in the right light.

Dave.

 

[zigmeister]

I think the biopassports only real value is the fact that over time, you *might* be able to look at someone's values and have suspicion.

From there, they could do more targeted testing, like OOC testing etc...and try to get accurate results based on that method.

Otherwise, the passport isn't the end-all be-all. You need to catch people stone cold with a proof positive.

The UCI has really gotten nowhere with the passport. They claim it has reduced doping. But I think doping in general was already on the decline with more advanced testing, OOC...until the last year when OOC for many riders/teams dropped off dramatically.

The UCI/WADA really need to get their testing/act together. Have teams put more resources into the process/methods.

But we know how the UCI are control freaks and do no wrong. It needs to be entirely independent with all parties involved having a big stake regarding their future/reputations, and a big financial blow if guys are caught.

 

[Nick777]

A few points on this

Individuals who get their Hct tested often at a normal hospital will see large swings in their Hct, but these are more due to the variable machines and calibrations. The UCI and WADA use the same equipment, calibrated the same. Variance is supposed to be .03

Hct will drop under heavy training and racing. It is important to measure in the off season, when the rider is not training hard. Armstrong's was 39.3

It is not unusual for a rider who has been using EPO to have their Hct crash when they stop. This happened to Pantani and Urgamov.

In the non-enhanced world Hct does not have an effect on performance. You can have a great rider who has a 39 and a slow rider who has a 49. It is not a measure like Vo2

Didn't Pantani nearly die in hospital after a crash, his hct got so low?

 

[classicomano]

Didn't Pantani nearly die in hospital after a crash, his hct got so low?

In 1995 he had a terrible crash where in the hospital his HCT was measured at 60.1%. Maybe you mean that story.

 

[doperhopper]

PhilGil confirmes the importance of the right HCT level in his post-LBL coming out:

“I was lacking a few percentage points in what was a really tough race,” Gilbert, finally seventh, said afterwards. “And it’s those few percentage points that always make the big difference.”

 

[zigmeister]

Didn't Pantani nearly die in hospital after a crash, his hct got so low?

In 1995 he had a terrible crash where in the hospital his HCT was measured at 60.1%. Maybe you mean that story.

Yes, I think Nick777 meant the 60% number after his one crash.

Which, maybe dehydration and trauma response could have elevated it 4-5 points which isn't unusual for trauma victims.

But, throughout his career, his levels, like in the TDF one year, went from 49% to 54% approximately. So he had levels tested many times up in the 54-55% range.

Crazy. And goes to show during his duel with Lance during the TDF, where Lance seemed to let him get ahead of him at the finish line to take the win and Lance retained Yellow, how doped Lance must of been if Pantani was running those numbers throughout his career, and Lance was dominating everybody else.

 

[Race Radio]

Didn't Pantani nearly die in hospital after a crash, his hct got so low?

Yes.

He had multiple issues when he stopped his program. His Testosterone and RBC production were compromised