Basso\Liquigas at the tour

[Galic Ho]

Are we talking about Cadel Evans who also said this:
The thing with this Giro is that is that there have been so many hard stages, even the transfer stages have been difficult. It's not that the break goes or the sprinters' teams ride: it's been hot or with crosswinds, or something was going on. How many days in a row did we have above 200km? I've never raced that long in a three-week stage race

Indeed we are talking about the same Evans. His tune changed halfway through the Giro. Hence why I made the distinction that it is still a hard race, but the pelotons pace is a little slower. Not much, but still slower. I also noted the GC boys went full throttle all the way. Take into consideration that Evans said he was sick from stage 11 onwards and his yo-yo-ing performances compared to Basso, Nibali, Scarponi and Vino are explainable.

Liquigas will bring a strong team--but not the best team--to the Tour. If they do well in the Tour, I think it will be, in part, because they don't have to control the race like they controlled the Giro. At the Tour, the weight of expectations will be on Astana, Radioshack, and Saxo Bank to dictate the pace on the big stages. I would hate to be a domestique for those squads as Basso, Nibali, Kreuziger and (maybe) Pellizotti take it in turns to attack, maybe with Szymd already up the road in a breakaway. Similarly, Liquigas at the Tour can focus on protecting Basso and/or Nibali/Kreuziger (i.e. keeping them up front and out of the wind) without also having to be at the very front, chasing down the breaks. I see no reason for Liquigas to try and drill it at the front all the time like they did in this Giro, though.

Dude, people said the same rubbish last year. I thought they might put up a fight and it never eventuated. What makes this year any different? Pellizotti will not race barring a miracle. If he races, so does Valverde. The thing about drilling it at the front of the peloton is that at the Tour, no matter what happens, Liquigas won't be able to do it, even if they wanted to. They will burn off too many domestiques and they have too many roosters in the hen house. Even if a Liquigas rider tries to make a move, the Schlecks and Contador can easily reel them back in. It will be just like Evans move in the Pyrennees after Arcalis last year. Ballsy, but futile. Won't amount to anything of real importance.

@Luckyboy. They really do need to fix this Valverde mess up. Either ban him or let him race. AC needs the competition. Valverde can put up a fight.

 

[Sasquatch]

If Valverde rides, he's the only one that can go close to Contador.

And as someone was talking about strong teams.

1. Alejandro Valverde
2. Luis Leon Sanchez
3. Jose Ivan Gutierrez
4. Mauricio Soler
5. Christophe Moreau
6. Juan Jose Cobo
7. Marzio Bruseghin
8. Rigoberto Uran
9. David Arroyo

Plus

10. Pablo Lastras
11. David Lopez
12. Vasili Kiryienka
13. Rui da Costa

That team will definitely be the strongest there.

Back on topic with Liquigas,

Pellizotti will be the man for them if he's allowed to ride. Or Kreuziger. It's hard seeing them back up from a tough Giro to a TDF. I honestly can't see Basso finishing top 3 in the TDF.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Is that the confirmed Caisse lineup? No José Vicente Garcia Acosta

edit: I assume it isn't, Caisse normally have a couple of their French domestiques at the Tour.

 

[Sasquatch]

Is that the confirmed Caisse lineup? No José Vicente Garcia Acosta

edit: I assume it isn't, Caisse normally have a couple of their French domestiques at the Tour.

Nah, it's not. I just put names to paper and missed him.

That proves my point that this team is so strong that strong riders will miss out.

 

[movingtarget]

Unfortunately I see a similar TDF to last year. I think we have just seen the best grand tour of the year. Contador, Schleck and the rest for this year's TDF. The others who would have made it interesting have just completed the Giro. Menchov, Sastre and Evans will also do better after last year's debacle but not good enough to challenge Contador and Schleck. Why would Liquigas have Kreuziger as team leader ? He has no chance of winning and has not lived up to his early promise. He can't finish in the top six in time trials and can't finish with the elite riders in the mountains. Will be interesting to see how some of the younger riders go like Gesink and Vanden Broek to see if they have made any progress.

 

[ScottyMuser]

Unfortunately I see a similar TDF to last year. I think we have just seen the best grand tour of the year. Contador, Schleck and the rest for this year's TDF. The others who would have made it interesting have just completed the Giro. Menchov, Sastre and Evans will also do better after last year's debacle but not good enough to challenge Contador and Schleck. Why would Liquigas have Kreuziger as team leader ? He has no chance of winning and has not lived up to his early promise. He can't finish in the top six in time trials and can't finish with the elite riders in the mountains. Will be interesting to see how some of the younger riders go like Gesink and Vanden Broek to see if they have made any progress.

Why would LG have Kreuzeiger as their leader? Maybe because he will be the freshest, and can easily top 10 being a joint leader (last year), and probably more (top 5 possible with a stronger team than last years and with being sole leader). Realistically, NOBODY can win it outsdie Contador and maybe Schleck, without a massive amount of luck, so I presume you are arguing why Rabo are having Menchov as leader, RS Armstrong, etc. Liquigas will be sending a stronger team this year to the TDF - last year they split things and had Bennati + 1/2 others to help him the sprints, then some helpers for Nib/Kreuzeiger - no smzyd, no Kieserlovski or others who have shown themselves to be top notch domestuques. Top 3 a possibility - tough., but top 10 I would expect, and possibly 2 in the top 10 (which I would argue as being a success for them after the Giro, especially if one top 5s)

 

[Lance Armstrong]

Why would Liquigas have Kreuziger as team leader ? He has no chance of winning and has not lived up to his early promise.

He finished 13th at age of 22 and 9th at age of 23. That are best results for such a young rider since 1996/1997 (Ullrich). I see him in Top5 this year.

 

[Nearly]

Nah, it's not. I just put names to paper and missed him.

That proves my point that this team is so strong that strong riders will miss out.

Arroyo's had a mighty but tough Giro. Will he be up to it or miss out?

 

[Zoncolan]

Unfortunately I see a similar TDF to last year. I think we have just seen the best grand tour of the year. Contador, Schleck and the rest for this year's TDF. The others who would have made it interesting have just completed the Giro. Menchov, Sastre and Evans will also do better after last year's debacle but not good enough to challenge Contador and Schleck. Why would Liquigas have Kreuziger as team leader ? He has no chance of winning and has not lived up to his early promise. He can't finish in the top six in time trials and can't finish with the elite riders in the mountains. Will be interesting to see how some of the younger riders go like Gesink and Vanden Broek to see if they have made any progress.

A fully fit Menchov can easily podium. I will go so far to say he could even do better than the Schlecklet this year. I just hope July in France will be dry, or he will lose some skin on all those downhill finishes.
Sastre and Evans will be spent. Even if Sastre wasn't, he couldn't podium. They should both try to win the Vuelta.
I agree on Kreuziger.
Van Den Broeck is the new Tommy D. IMO. He will never make a top 5 of a GT, and he will forever be called young and talented, even when he reaches 30 (not that far off now).
Gesink will indeed be interesting to observe. If he has improved his TT, and he and Menchov can avoid crashing, Rabo will have a big tactical advantage over some of the other teams.
Basso was very competitive in '05 after a very tough Giro, so I wouldn't rule him out.

 

[luckyboy]

Why would Liquigas have Kreuziger as team leader ? He has no chance of winning and has not lived up to his early promise. Will be interesting to see how some of the younger riders go like Gesink and Vanden Broek to see if they have made any progress.

Kreuziger the 24-year old, right?

Van Den Broeck the 27-year old, right?

 

[Christian]

Strongest team at the Tour will be Saxo. Look at the lineup. Fuglsang for the mountains, with Sorensen 1 and 2. Plus Franck Schleck backing up the second best climber at the TdF in recent years, not serving a ban (ala Ricco), who just happens to be his younger brother. O'Grady the old war horse with another old warhorse, the toughtest man riding a bike, Jens Voigt are the road captains. Plus add in Gustav Larson, monster rider, bettered only by Spartacus himself.

Lol that was great !!

Doesn't O'Grady have a broken collarbone though? Plus I don't think that'll be their exact line-up because they'll take Matti Breschel, that is already certain. I think they shouldn't take him if they want to focus 100% on AS, but what can you do. He's a great rider and I'm sure next year with Rabobank or someone else he'll definitely win a stage or something but just not a great help for a GC contendor

 

[Ferminal]

Basso probably outperformed most people's expectations in the Giro.

If he was heading into the Tour with uninterrupted (no Giro) preparation he would be their best man for a chance of podium. Even if Pellizotti was there (he will not ride the Tour) he's more of an unknown in terms of what performance he could pull out.

Liquigas and Basso will work out whether or not he has the "conditioning" to put in a top performance in July. If he does he will be the clear leader, if he doesn't it will be more or less than same as last year.

 

[Jan the Man]

Re Kreuziger -

How can anyone say that winning Suisse and Romandie followed by gradual improvements in the Tour are not fulfilling potential??

He has for example shown more killer instinct than say Gesink, who is often touted on year as the next big thing.

Re Liquigas

They will be strong, very strong- but remember their team will likely be split and have different objectives i.e. Bennatti and GC this is not always condusive to the best team results.

No doubt Saxo has the strongest team on paper. One objective and many excellent workhorses:

Andy Schleck
Frank Schleck
Chirs Sorensen
Jacob Fuglslang
Nikki Sorensen
Fabian Cancellara
Gustav Larsson
Jens Voigt
Matti Breschel

 

[Zen Master]

Basso probably outperformed most people's expectations in the Giro.

To be honest I was one of a few who voted for him ( Who will win the giro ? poll )
With this form Basso IMHO have exactly the same chance for a TDF podium place as Andy Schleck ( good climbing + poor ITT ), but we'll se...

Re Liquigas

They will be strong, very strong- but remember their team will likely be split and have different objectives i.e. Bennatti and GC this is not always condusive to the best team results.

Major problem with Liquigas will be Basso vs Kreuziger if you ask me

 

[Angliru]

Methinks it'll be fun to watch Basso at the TdF. He certainly has the fitness now, but come July... Anywho, the Italian has said that it would be "fun" (or something along those lines) to race Contador.

Although, if I had any advise for Ivan I'd tell him not to bite more than he can chew.

You already have another Giro in the bag gumbah, the TdF is an entirely different animal altogether.

Don't let your mouth write checks your a$$ can't cash.

Ask Gilberto Simoni.

It appears Basso is pulling rank on his younger teammates, Nibali and Kreuziger. In the past Kreuziger wasn't bashful about his not wanting Basso on the 2009 Tour team and now to have him laying claim to the team leadership at the Tour is not going to come off to well nor is it going to do much for team unity. Basso is pretty ballsy thinking that he can compete with Contador after such a grueling Giro, almost bordering on delusional arrogance.

As a Simoni fan (fanboy if you must), I'd have to say while he may have bitten off more than he could chew in terms of the inferred reference to his statements following his 2003 Giro win, at least he had the cajones to even try the the Giro/Tour double, something a certain rider avoided for fear of failure at the Tour. Okay I've defended Simoni, I'm done.

 

[Señor_Contador]

It appears Basso is pulling rank on his younger teammates, Nibali and Kreuziger. In the past Kreuziger wasn't bashful about his not wanting Basso on the 2009 Tour team and now to have him laying claim to the team leadership at the Tour is not going to come off to well nor is it going to do much for team unity. Basso is pretty ballsy thinking that he can compete with Contador after such a grueling Giro, almost bordering on delusional arrogance.

As a Simoni fan (fanboy if you must), I'd have to say while he may have bitten off more than he could chew in terms of the inferred reference to his statements following his 2003 Giro win, at least he had the cajones to even try the the Giro/Tour double, something a certain rider avoided for fear of failure at the Tour. Okay I've defended Simoni, I'm done.

Yes, the double is indeed difficult, but trying it is not about having the cojones, it's about being realistic and putting your eggs (no pun intended) in the basket what most counts. For AC that basket is the TdF. For Basso, at least this year, it's the Giro. Very few riders attempt both with any realistic goals of winning both. The only one to have won not 2, but three grand tours in a little over a year is AC, so he knows what it takes.

I truly wish Ivan lots of luck, but, at one point, he's going to have to move aside and let Nibali take over the team captain role, at least at the TdF. Vincenzo had a good TdF last year, and was the only one sort of able to keep up with AC in stages like Verbier.

 

[simon_brooke]

Wrong, but not for the reasons you listed.

Strongest team at the Tour will be Saxo. Look at the lineup. Fuglsang for the mountains, with Sorensen 1 and 2. Plus Franck Schleck backing up the second best climber at the TdF in recent years, not serving a ban (ala Ricco), who just happens to be his younger brother. O'Grady the old war horse with another old warhorse, the toughtest man riding a bike, Jens Voigt are the road captains. Plus add in Gustav Larson, monster rider, bettered only by Spartacus himself.

HTC. Need I say more, other than their finely tuned train. Their helpers are better than everyone on Liquigas crew other than Sagan, Basso, Nibali and Kreuziger. HTC are monsters. Perhaps you missed Tony Martin on the climb into Big Bear at the ToC. He was on fire. He'll back up Rogers if HTC make the GC a target. Sure they have the Cav express train to target but they can improvise, such is their talent.

Granted Saxo are a very strong team (and the team I will personally be cheering for in the Tour, particularly big Jens). But you're undercounting Leaky's strength there. Szmyd was enormously impressive during the Giro. And you overcount HTC. Yes, they have talented riders. But those talented riders will be focussed on slingshotting Cavendish at the line, and one team no matter how talented cannot cover everything in a Grand Tour.

Can Liquigas? Don't count on it.

Leaky have (unsurprisingly) put a lot of effort into their home tour. But they've got a lot out of it - two podium places, second in the team competition (to Saxo, who were not fielding their strongest team), second in the mountains classification, third and fifth in the points classification, second and sixth in the young rider classification. That's a pretty good haul of prizes.

Caisse d'Epargne. Valverde. Look at where Arroyo came in the Giro. Caisse sent their crap team. All the big boys will be at the Tour. Assuming Valverde rides (as he still is right now) then Caisse will be at least on par with Liquigas.

Last but not least...Astana. David De la Fuente, Oscar Perreiro and Vino all riding for one man. Alberto Contador. They have listed on their website that their goal is to win the Tour for Contador. Contador needs no introduction. He was holding back last year.

Uh-uh. Whatever the rest of the team do, Vino will ride for one man, and it won't be Contador. Remember Vino destroying his team captain, Ullrich, attacking him and attacking him on climbs? Vino cannot beat Contador. But he can prevent Contador having a united team behind him - and he will. Basso - with the Giro behind him - cannot beat Contador, mano a mano - or if he can we have to worry once again as to whether he's clean (and I don't want to). But the Tour isn't a one on one competition. It's a team competition, and Contador has at least one man fewer on his team than any other GC contender.

As for Caisse d'Epargne, Valverde has a strong team behind him. But that strong team have Valverde to lead them - therefore, Caisse d'Epargne will not feature on the podium. Every rider has off days, but Valverde has too many to be a Grand Tour champion.

I'm not saying Leaky will win the Tour. My money is on Saxo. But I don't think you can write Leaky off so easily. Basso is not their only GT contender, as the Giro demonstrated.

 

[ScottyMuser]

Leaky have (unsurprisingly) put a lot of effort into their home tour. But they've got a lot out of it - two podium places, second in the team competition (to Saxo, who were not fielding their strongest team), second in the mountains classification, third and fifth in the points classification, second and sixth in the young rider classification. That's a pretty good haul of prizes.

Uh-uh. Whatever the rest of the team do, Vino will ride for one man, and it won't be Contador. Remember Vino destroying his team captain, Ullrich, attacking him and attacking him on climbs? Vino cannot beat Contador. But he can prevent Contador having a united team behind him - and he will. Basso - with the Giro behind him - cannot beat Contador, mano a mano - or if he can we have to worry once again as to whether he's clean (and I don't want to). But the Tour isn't a one on one competition. It's a team competition, and Contador has at least one man fewer on his team than any other GC contender.

I agree with what you wrote in your post , and want to make 2 points with regards to the 2 parts of your post I quote above.
1) Yes, Szmyd was hugely impressive, and for a lot of us, not surprisingly so. Don't forget LG didn't take him to the Tour, so if they do this year thats one more strong cog in their team added (for those saying he won't ride as he had such a gruelling race, than what about evans, sastre, arroyo, sorensen, etc who will be riding it)
2) That didn't harm contador last year where Armstrong was *clearly* riding entirely for himself, as was at least half the team (as shown by the mass exodus to join Lance at Shack) - in fact Contador has a STRONGER team behind HIM than last year (people like Tiralongo, Perreiro, Fuente), and if Vino attacks then Contador has no need to react as a) Vino will be exhausted after this giro and b) this Giro has shown that (possibly?)O candy-free he is not at the same level as he was when on candy

 

[theyoungest]

As for Caisse d'Epargne, Valverde has a strong team behind him. But that strong team have Valverde to lead them - therefore, Caisse d'Epargne will not feature on the podium. Every rider has off days, but Valverde has too many to be a Grand Tour champion.

May I remind you that Valverde won a Grand Tour last year?

 

[Angliru]

Yes, the double is indeed difficult, but trying it is not about having the cojones, it's about being realistic and putting your eggs (no pun intended) in the basket what most counts. For AC that basket is the TdF. For Basso, at least this year, it's the Giro. Very few riders attempt both with any realistic goals of winning both. The only one to have won not 2, but three grand tours in a little over a year is AC, so he knows what it takes.

I truly wish Ivan lots of luck, but, at one point, he's going to have to move aside and let Nibali take over the team captain role, at least at the TdF. Vincenzo had a good TdF last year, and was the only one sort of able to keep up with AC in stages like Verbier.

...and for Simoni it has always been the Giro & 7 podium finishes attest to that. The statements he made after the Giro were of course bravado motivated by his recent success at the Giro. It's oddly similar to Basso's level of confidence, except Basso has the Tour track record to back up his words.
Simoni never attempted to focus on the Tour which makes sense since during his prime he always rode for Italian teams.

As far as Verbier I don't really recall Nibali being anywhere near Contador but that is neither here nor there. I hope that Nibali has something left in the tank to put in a good Tour. I would personally like to see Basso return the favor to Niballi and support him and Kreuziger unless the 2 falter in the mountains and Basso shows he is indeed the team's best bet.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

er... simon, Valverde kinda won a Grand Tour last year and spent twelve days defending that jersey. The man has purged a lot of the off-days from his repertoire by becoming a smarter (but a bit less exciting) rider. And his results in the last 12 months speak for themselves really. A Dauphiné, Burgos, the Vuelta, 2nd in Paris-Nice, 2nd in País Vasco, Romandie... the guy is a winner, and can and will contend in the (extremely unlikely) event that he gets to start. Elsewise, Caisse can behave like Radioshack in that they'll have lots of people up near the front (meaning they'll do well in the teams classification) without threatening to win outright; Cobo went top 10 in the Vuelta and has stage victories in the Vuelta and Tour, Luís León has won Tour stages in back to back years, Moreau will continue to get a rise out of the French fans, Bruseghin has a Giro podium and at least one other top 10, plus a Vuelta top 10 in his history, Rubén Plaza has a Vuelta top 5, Juan Mauricio Soler has a polka-dot jersey at home and has really shown a return to form this year, Vasily Kiryienka has a Giro stage win and was top 15 in last year's Vuelta despite being third in Valverde's line of domestiques after Rodríguez and Moreno.

That is a lot of top drawer rider right there, and that's before we get to José Iván Gutiérrez and José Vicente Garçia Acosta, two of the best domestiques around, or the young up-and-comers like Urán and Costa.

 

[Galic Ho]

Granted Saxo are a very strong team (and the team I will personally be cheering for in the Tour, particularly big Jens). But you're undercounting Leaky's strength there. Szmyd was enormously impressive during the Giro. And you overcount HTC. Yes, they have talented riders. But those talented riders will be focussed on slingshotting Cavendish at the line, and one team no matter how talented cannot cover everything in a Grand Tour.

No I'm not under estimating Liquigas. I'm being realistic. The name Szmyd will not send shivers up the spines of the opposition. HTC have a train. They pull very hard on the front of the peloton solely on their own numerous times during the Tour. Remember stage 3 last year? What other teams can do that in the tour or have in recent years apart from HTC? Saxo and maybe Caisse. Definitely not Liquigas, regardless of what they showed this Giro. Everyone is dreaming until Liquigas make that move. They won't because they cannot. They might share a pull at the front, but they won't send 6 guys up front in anticipation of an attack like Saxo did on Stage 17 last year.

Leaky have (unsurprisingly) put a lot of effort into their home tour. But they've got a lot out of it - two podium places, second in the team competition (to Saxo, who were not fielding their strongest team), second in the mountains classification, third and fifth in the points classification, second and sixth in the young rider classification. That's a pretty good haul of prizes.

This isn't the Giro thread. It is about Liquigas at the Tour. All this just solidifies the point that they had weakened opposition.

Uh-uh. Whatever the rest of the team do, Vino will ride for one man, and it won't be Contador. Remember Vino destroying his team captain, Ullrich, attacking him and attacking him on climbs? Vino cannot beat Contador. But he can prevent Contador having a united team behind him - and he will. Basso - with the Giro behind him - cannot beat Contador, mano a mano - or if he can we have to worry once again as to whether he's clean (and I don't want to). But the Tour isn't a one on one competition. It's a team competition, and Contador has at least one man fewer on his team than any other GC contender.

This bit is rubbish. Vino did not attack his team captain. Ullrich and Kloden pulled Vino's attacks back in during 2005. Why did Vino start his own team? Wake the hell up. People have said been spraying this BS and biased misconception for months about Vino being a sly traitor in the Astana ship. These malicious rumours did not stop Alberto helping Vino in Liege. You have been smoking some serious $h1t if you believe for a second Vino is going to stab AC in the back. Maybe some of boys in the forum can direct you to the numerous quotes displaying the new found Astana comradeship or the photos of the guys chillin together. You know, the stuff that was absent last year at Astana. Vino is spent after the Giro. He'll be helping De la Fuente and Perreiro get AC high into the big stages so he can do his thing. Not a Lance fan are you? You're description of Vino is exactly what LA is. Vino ain't Lance, so stop tarring an entertaining rider with crap that there is no evidence to support.

As for Caisse d'Epargne, Valverde has a strong team behind him. But that strong team have Valverde to lead them - therefore, Caisse d'Epargne will not feature on the podium. Every rider has off days, but Valverde has too many to be a Grand Tour champion.

How did Valverde win the Vuelta? He learnt not to have those bad days. He will do better than any Liquigas rider will if he races.

I'm not saying Leaky will win the Tour. My money is on Saxo. But I don't think you can write Leaky off so easily. Basso is not their only GT contender, as the Giro demonstrated.

Yes I can. My point was about dictating pace on the big stages or on the in between ones. Liquigas, depending on team composition (they may have Sagan so HTC comparison is applicable) will struggle to do that against the other teams. They will hang on and conserve energy. They will most likely only set pace if they get a guy into a breakaway and sneak the maillot jaune for a day. Maybe you missed the Giro. Basso was the only real contender on Liquigas. Nibali ain't ready this year. Pellizotti is the only other one they have (the best actually, but doped best) and he will be lucky to race within the next two years.

 

[Jan the Man]

@ Libertine - CAS may have a strong team but they don't have a leader after today's ruling.

@ Galic - I have to disagree re Vino's tactics in the 2005 tour, particulalry after his jour sans up to Courchevel. His attack on Stage 14 was stupid and although yes Kloden chased him down, which in hindsight was not smart, his attack was individual and contrarty to what was best for the team, especially as he had been dropped on the Palharies.

Additionally after seeing Basso's climbing in the Giro. If Basso is leader for the Tour I'd wager he would do better than Valverde.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Jan - yea, I know. I was too busy responding to the Evans threads up here to look in the Clinic until after I posted that.

Edit - oh, and on Basso vs. Valverde climbing in the Tour? It'll be Basso's second GT in quick succession and Valverde's first.

I'd have put money on Menchov and Sastre climbing better at the Tour than Kreuziger and Armstrong on May 31st 2009. That wouldn't have worked out well for me.

 

[ttrider]

no people are wrong about Basso putting his eggs in one basket
before the giro he said he would support pelizoti in order to get full support at the tour
that would mean 90% ish of form at giro, when pellizotti pulled out he couldnt suddenly make his form excellent to win, it was to late therefore he will peak at the tour as with the original plan

Arguably 2005 Giro was harder lead up to the tour for him than this year, he competed a lot of the time for GC and was then ill yet carried on and so must have damaged his body and tour chances

Im convinced he can podium if he can merely maintain giro form he will be on a par with a shleck if he can improve it.... well we could be in for an epic battle until contador smashes him in the tt!

Kreuzinger should just shut the hell up hes never convinced me and i highly doubt hes a team player, Basso gets on with Nibali etc but kreuzinger causes problem after problem

Kreuzinger and pelli shud either work unselfishly or not do the tour