Battle for 2023-2025 WT licenses

Page 8 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
You are overestimating BEX's ability in one day races - Recent history has shown they are average at this discipline - Undoubtedly, BEX has been the unluckiest team hit by COVID in the peleton - Theyv'e had their leader forced out of two GT's when in the position to gain a decent swag of UCI points - You then add the team had to withdraw halfway during Giro 2020 and more importantly there have been no Australian races in the last two years in which they usually collect a swag of points.
No excuse for BEX last year, eh? Can’t keep excusing BEX for their performance when they’ve known the Aussie races are getting canceled, so they have to adjust accordingly, just like the rest of the peloton when they were scoring points over there. Instead, BEX ignored this. Luck hasn’t been on their side, but that’s the same for a bunch of other teams. Matthews should score points in Canada and WC’s if he has form, and Gronewagen in Maryland and whatever else he rides.
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
You are overestimating BEX's ability in one day races - Recent history has shown they are average at this discipline - Undoubtedly, BEX has been the unluckiest team hit by COVID in the peleton - Theyv'e had their leader forced out of two GT's when in the position to gain a decent swag of UCI points - You then add the team had to withdraw halfway during Giro 2020 and more importantly there have been no Australian races in the last two years in which they usually collect a swag of points.
You just think that BEX had the most bad luck because you follow them closely. You do realize Israel for example had their whole team out with Covid and other sicknesses in 3 months time during the first part of the season. They couldn't even line up enough riders to start some races (as you need 5 riders to start). Almost every rider in the peloton has had Covid the last year, some worse than others sure, and some at worse moments than others, but in the end every team had a ton of bad luck. And the whole australian races getting cancelled is just a BS excuse. They still got a ton of easy points from it in 2020 and it's not like other races didn't get cancelled. You do realize most Belgian smaller races got cancelled too for example? Plus BEX could've just ridden more of those like they're doing right now. If they do what they need to do they will literally get 200 free points out of the easy Maryland classic on Sunday.

And no I'm not overestimating their one day race ability. They're shiit as a team, but Matthews isn't. He's proven to be really good at the Canadian GPs in particular. He doesn't need a good team for it, he just needs to sprint to a good position. And same for Groenewegen. They'll be perfectly fine. Yates will probably be fit to do something in some of the Italian classics too.
 
Sponsors pay because they have a guaranteed Tour invite. Relegating would take that away. Sponsors could pull out.
With relegation system there is also promotion, so then sponsors can put their money in to those teams instead. Just because youve been around for a while you don’t deserve a free card no matter how bad you do. With only 2 of 18 teams relegating every 3 year its not that hard to stay up If you have a competent organization and a WT worthy squad.
As the system is based on results and everyone have known (or atleast had the possibility to read them) the rules it’s fair in my opinion.
 
Reactions: seasidehiking
You just think that BEX had the most bad luck because you follow them closely. You do realize Israel for example had their whole team out with Covid and other sicknesses in 3 months time during the first part of the season. They couldn't even line up enough riders to start some races (as you need 5 riders to start). Almost every rider in the peloton has had Covid the last year, some worse than others sure, and some at worse moments than others, but in the end every team had a ton of bad luck. And the whole australian races getting cancelled is just a BS excuse. They still got a ton of easy points from it in 2020 and it's not like other races didn't get cancelled. You do realize most Belgian smaller races got cancelled too for example? Plus BEX could've just ridden more of those like they're doing right now. If they do what they need to do they will literally get 200 free points out of the easy Maryland classic on Sunday.

And no I'm not overestimating their one day race ability. They're shiit as a team, but Matthews isn't. He's proven to be really good at the Canadian GPs in particular. He doesn't need a good team for it, he just needs to sprint to a good position. And same for Groenewegen. They'll be perfectly fine. Yates will probably be fit to do something in some of the Italian classics too.
You realise that some teams could not get invites to smaller Belgium or French races because of the cap on the number of WT teams at these races - Yes, Israel could not field a team for Flanders and had reduced teams for some other races at this time. Name me one other GC team leader who has been forced to leave 2 GT's with COVID when in a decent position and a team which was forced to leave a a GT halfway through ( 2020 Giro ) - At the end of the day, BEX is privately funded, so the impact of promotion/relegation will not affect them as badly as other teams. Anyway, I've posted awhile ago that the Promotion system is flawed and not needed.
 
You realise that some teams could not get invites to smaller Belgium or French races because of the cap on the number of WT teams at these races - Yes, Israel could not field a team for Flanders and had reduced teams for some other races at this time. Name me one other GC team leader who has been forced to leave 2 GT's with COVID when in a decent position and a team which was forced to leave a a GT halfway through ( 2020 Giro ) - At the end of the day, BEX is privately funded, so the impact of promotion/relegation will not affect them as badly as other teams. Anyway, I've posted awhile ago that the Promotion system is flawed and not needed.
I don't think it's needed either, i don't like it either but that's besides the point. The cap never ever happened. I don't know why you're making that up. It might happen in the next month and yes I agree that's problematic as it gives organizers too much power right now.
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
Apr 17, 2019
9
5
2,545
You realise that some teams could not get invites to smaller Belgium or French races because of the cap on the number of WT teams at these races - Yes, Israel could not field a team for Flanders and had reduced teams for some other races at this time. Name me one other GC team leader who has been forced to leave 2 GT's with COVID when in a decent position and a team which was forced to leave a a GT halfway through ( 2020 Giro ) - At the end of the day, BEX is privately funded, so the impact of promotion/relegation will not affect them as badly as other teams. Anyway, I've posted awhile ago that the Promotion system is flawed and not needed.
You just think that BEX had the most bad luck because you follow them closely. You do realize Israel for example had their whole team out with Covid and other sicknesses in 3 months time during the first part of the season. They couldn't even line up enough riders to start some races (as you need 5 riders to start). Almost every rider in the peloton has had Covid the last year, some worse than others sure, and some at worse moments than others, but in the end every team had a ton of bad luck. And the whole australian races getting cancelled is just a BS excuse. They still got a ton of easy points from it in 2020 and it's not like other races didn't get cancelled. You do realize most Belgian smaller races got cancelled too for example? Plus BEX could've just ridden more of those like they're doing right now. If they do what they need to do they will literally get 200 free points out of the easy Maryland classic on Sunday.

And no I'm not overestimating their one day race ability. They're shiit as a team, but Matthews isn't. He's proven to be really good at the Canadian GPs in particular. He doesn't need a good team for it, he just needs to sprint to a good position. And same for Groenewegen. They'll be perfectly fine. Yates will probably be fit to do something in some of the Italian classics too.
I wonder whether the UCI may intervene in the relegation system at the end of 2022. When the system was initiated, the UCI could not have foreseen three years of Covid impacting the outcome of races to this degree and this could give them an excuse to increase the number of WT teams. Suppose Astana does not start in 2023. It would be easy for them to allow 19 teams. It is in the interest of the UCI to have non European teams in the WT increasing the viewing audiences in the USA with EF, in Australia with BEX and Israel and Canada with IPT. They would also not like to see Spain without a team in the peleton.
 
No, but that can be a huge benefit. Sure, if you're France's top non-WT team it's not a big deal because you're going to be invited to the Tour anyway, but for other teams doing a GT can be the difference between continuing or having to stop. And securing a spot allows you to plan your seasons much more methodically, which has a positive impact on performance.
Exactly. When there are only 2 free wildcards left for the organisers (and always local ProTeams asking for those), it's quite risky to depend on being handed one of those (or risking needing to the following year).
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
We've been watching an ongoing Premier-League-ification of cycling for a while, and plenty of proposals in order to lock it off. And not just from the UCI/big money team side either - Vaughters' franchise idea was largely to prevent his team being one of those that fell by the wayside (and his concern has been shown to be correct, with EF being one of the bottom teams).

Making the top races even more inflexible in terms of invites is just going to make it not worth anybody's time trying to run a ProTeam level team unless they're in one of a small handful of countries, however. A lot of those smaller races that have benefited big time over the last season from these teams desperate for points coming in are probably going to completely fall back the other way once the top level is kinda locked off, though, as they will no longer see any big teams come in and ProTeam level teams will be far lower draws (they already are relative to 10-15 years ago) than they are now. And a lot of races that need to drive up local sponsors may not appreciate the restriction of wildcard opportunities making it harder to give the race a local flavour or increase local interest, as well as concentrate all non-WT riders from that country into a smaller number of ProTeams, further enhancing the Premier-League-ification by impoverishing all but the top handful of PT squads.

And of course, you've always got the problem of what happens if Lotto or Movistar lawyer up? If Mas gets turfed out of the Vuelta for Covid protocols, or some late season races on a team's calendar get cancelled due to a case surge, or Lotto fall only a couple of points short with a number of race cancellations in the Low Countries that would have favoured them or are forced to withdraw a big rider the day of, say, Paris-Tours due to Covid protocols, surely they protest that they were penalised for complying with the rules? And with results across 2020 and 2021 being part of the issue when every country had different regulations in place, teams can rightly challenge that they may have been disadvantaged simply by falling under different legal jurisdiction to a team that was afforded more freedom to train, or was able to travel to more races, or where more races were allowed to be organised sooner after the Covid-restricted periods?

I just foresee a big mess come season's end.
 
The big mess is already here since the whole thing seems to have no purpose at all anymore. When Hein Verbruggen introduced the idiocy at least there was a goal, a concept. Getting money from ASO, TdF TV revenue sharing, and guarantees for sponsors. Failed (predictably, even if some sharing actually wouldn't be wrong) and even that guarantee thing hasn't really worked out all that well finally, sponsors still pull the plug and teams are scrambling and sometimes failing to find new ones.

Nowadays it just seems to exist because it exists, they tweak the system every 2 years, going in opposite directions, plan to go down to 16 teams, but then it turned out to be 19, a bunch of races added to the World Tour a few seasons ago, but without the requirement for the teams to participate. And at least in Frankfurt's case they weren't even asking for it, were just offered to be in it. Qatar of course got to be a WT race and then was cancelled immediately. Now this 3 year system with a big fight for the places every 3 years. And with with the Covid interference this has become sort of messy too now. But again, it already is a mess, the whole World Tour system seems to the only purpose seems to be the have 18 teams with a guarantee to ride the TdF for 3 years. 2 additional teams who can earn their place in the previous year. Second purpose is the same for the Giro and Vuelta, but quite a few of the WT teams probably wouldn't even mind that much missing one of those... The whole system is a mess, having a mess now with the new licenses is fitting. But IMO is still better than the rider buying system they had ages ago... When points at the start of the new season counted.
 
Reactions: postmanhat
Sponsors pay because they have a guaranteed Tour invite. Relegating would take that away. Sponsors could pull out. Pretty big chance Movistar could just seize to exist for example if they relegate. That's not good for Spanish cycling and imo also not for the sport in general.

Lotto btw is the oldest team in the world. They have been a main sponsor since 1985.



If there was one team that could take this hit it was BEX. They'll be fine. They'll be taking a massive amount of points in sprint races (maryland, Fourmies, Belgian ones) with Groenewegen and Canada/Worlds with Matthews. As long as Matthews for example doesnt crash out before Canada they have nothing to worry about.

It is quite funny that this is the 2nd time some riders are voicing their opinion about the system just when BEX seems to be in problem. They all didn't care when it was just Israel and Lotto.
Why do Movistar and Lotto deserve to be top teams ?

There has to be some form of merit system. It's been a while now since Movi were an important team and personally I'll have a little laugh if they lose out to Nairo and Arkea.
 
Reactions: postmanhat
Why do Movistar and Lotto deserve to be top teams ?

There has to be some form of merit system. It's been a while now since Movi were an important team and personally I'll have a little laugh if they lose out to Nairo and Arkea.
Where did I say that? I simply responded to someone who mentioned Movistar and QS as traditional teams because he left out the oldest team there is.
 
Where did I say that? I simply responded to someone who mentioned Movistar and QS as traditional teams because he left out the oldest team there is.
No they didn't, they mentioned Movistar. Movistar are the old Reynolds team which has been around since the 70s, and as a pro team since 1980. Lotto is the oldest sponsor, but Movistar is the oldest continuous entity in the pro péloton.
 
Why do Movistar and Lotto deserve to be top teams ?

There has to be some form of merit system. It's been a while now since Movi were an important team and personally I'll have a little laugh if they lose out to Nairo and Arkea.
Well, there are a few mediocre teams that are above them too, who aren't going to add any more to a lot of races than Movistar would (and in some races, considerably less). They're still paying for the idiotic three-headed-monster team of a few years ago, where having all 3 cost them almost all of their quality domestiques, and they've never managed to get back on track since then really.

Although if Enric Mas hadn't crashed out of several consecutive races and Miguel Ángel López could have been convinced to get back on his bike last Vuelta, they wouldn't be anywhere close to this issue. The public fallout with Supermán - who until that point had been pretty content with the team and had only just signed a contract extension - is the biggest problem they have, other than a neglect of what had seemed pointless small flat one day races they didn't have any riders for, and which have enabled the various French and Belgian teams to hoover up small points that now endanger them. The Spanish calendar doesn't really have an equivalent to these races beyond the Challenge Mallorca races in February and the team has never really paid much attention to sprints or sprinting, and I think that they have been far, far too slow to recognise or even comprehend that they were in danger and have only in the last couple of weeks started to take action to protect themselves, whereas teams like Lotto, BikeExchange and EF have been in survival mode and targeting these smaller races for months, and that hubris, along with Supermán's temper, might be what costs them in the end.
 
SERIOUSLY UCI???

Even as a LTS fan, what a fking joke. You've made teams doing horribly stupid things for months now for this??

I know there has been a a lot of teams lobbying for this for a while but I also thought UCI always said no.

Just to be clear, the article just says UCI is thinking about having 20 WT teams, not that it has been confirmed.
 
Last edited:
I've seen enough, Black Spoke is starting in the Tour. And no one will be able to stop Aaron Gate from winning it.
But seriously, 25 teams in GTs and 28 teams in other events is going to look super weird. Not a fan of it. even tho it's good for smaller PCT teams as they will have more chances at riding bigger races.

Maybe it's also just a premature article. It states that there is a lot of pressure on the UCI from EF, Movistar, BEX, Cofidis, Lotto & Israel, but some of teams might not care anymore after this weekend.
 
But seriously, 25 teams in GTs and 28 teams in other events is going to look super weird. Not a fan of it. even tho it's good for smaller PCT teams as they will have more chances at riding bigger races.

Maybe it's also just a premature article. It states that there is a lot of pressure on the UCI from EF, Movistar, BEX, Cofidis, Lotto & Israel, but some of teams might not care anymore after this weekend.
I always thought it was strange that when they cut team sizes from nine to eight in Grand Tours and eight to seven in other races, they didn't allow more teams into the races given that those cuts were not made for safety reasons but tactical reasons.

But if this decision comes it is of course ridiculously late.
 
I always thought it was strange that when they cut team sizes from nine to eight in Grand Tours and eight to seven in other races, they didn't allow more teams into the races given that those cuts were not made for safety reasons but tactical reasons.

But if this decision comes it is of course ridiculously late.
Oh I genuinly thought those decisions were made because of safety reasons. But that definitely hasn't helped at all so...
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Samu Cuenca Professional Road Racing 108

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS