Battle of the Super Domestique - tour 2011

[just some guy]

One of the "big four" from Radioshack, after the pecking order is settled.

I think that once the big 4 have settled the pecking order 3 of them will be toast and the other quite done.

every GC guy talks about saving energy in the 1st week, this year is different the 1st week the GC guys will need to be on their game then 1st couple of Mountain stages to decide who the leader is can´t see it being good this year.

ps looking at the team comp - Garmin in for a look.

 

[jens_attacks]

LOL richie porte isnt a climber anymore. dani navarro and hernandez havent showed anything at all this year and they will be tired from this giro. But maybe navarro will have good form. nicki sorensen isnt a climber. however CAS would be strong as usual. But I believe fuglsang, montfort will be just as strong as him.

richie will fly this july i'm sure.i don't even dare to think what kind of animal navarro will be up in the pyrenees.his max heartrate in giro was like 120,alberto didn't need him.this guy was already a monster with martinelli,riis will make him peak in july like an angel.

for astana,watch out for di gregorio,awesome style of climbing and finally after all those years,he will climb,he will go better than kreuziger and tiralongo.

leopard riders though might be the guys who will destroy all the other super domestiques.very difficult to beat them.

it will be interesting who will be super domestique in radioshack because i doubt that after pyrenees all 4 of them will be in the top ten.

 

[Ferminal]

ps looking at the team comp - Garmin in for a look.

ah yeh, Tommy D for sure, if he isn't outright leader at that team. Let's face it, he has more runs on the board than CVV and RH in recent times.

 

[Scansorial]

What happened to Navarro? The guy was a beast at the TDF last year and he was nowhere to be seen at the Giro.

 

[Anonymous]

Only Szmyd for my Paisan in the mountains.

 

[movingtarget]

Seeing you are called Gilbertador I can assume we can take your comments with a grain of salt. Richie Porte hasnt shown anything in the mountains this year and I wonder how he is even going to do something.

Sure Contador has the best mountain domestiques but Andy has got Frank to domestique if needed. If Andy can take the first place, I doubt he wants to take Frank with him when he would fail if he did take Frank with him.

Porte was riding better towards the end of the Giro and was ill before the start. I think he will do better in the Tour. I am surprised that Popovych even made the R/S team. I hope they are not paying him much. We hear a lot about the Schleck brothers riding for each other but where are the results ? I often think the "support the brother thing" messes their tactics up especially when one of them is riding much better than the other.

 

[sky forever]

The best single domestique is probably either Navarro or Szmyd.

Navarro because he didn't expand too much energy in the Giro to help Contador as pointed out either with a max HR of 120. He will be fine for the Tour.

Szmyd is always awesome. If he is on 2010 Giro form.

The best overall team will be either Saxo or Leopard or Rabo.

Saxo's only problem could be tiredness after the Giro but CAS can help AC.

Leopard have big engines on the Flat and strong guys like Monfort on the Climbs.

However, if Radioshack have a big shake up in the Pyrenees and only have 1 GC guy challenging, then they will be awesome.

Rabo have Mollema, Sanchez, Garate for the climbs and Boom etc for the flat.

I personally think Saxo will be fine with helpers but who knows but Leopard can't go there thinking that Saxo will be tired. They have to go there there thinking they will be at there best.

 

[sky forever]

But if Radioshack have a big shake up in the Pryenees and have 1 GC leader up there, then they could be awesome. As long as it is an Amercian because Johan has a special place in his heart for Amercians.

 

[*Falze*]

Vasili Kiryienka has always been a super domestic, but i'm not sure if he would get a free reign this year, with no obvious leader.

Might put the old what if he worked for himself , what would he do question to bed.

Narravo was awsome in the TDF last year to agree with previous posters.

 

[2wheels]

I think Leopard Trek has the best horses, but it's never safe to assume that their DS will use them wisely. Guys like Gerdemann, Fuglsang, and Monfort will all be up there on GC and could put tremendous pressure on other teams to chase, if only they would attack-- but they just seem content to stay in the train. Likewise, Leopard could create some serious splits on the rolling and/or windy coastal stages with guys like Cancellara, Voigt, and O'Grady-- but will they? Way too conservative so far this year, IMHO.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Kiryienka may get free reign, but he rode through the early season (good results in March and April) and also worked hard in the Giro. I'd expect him more to be the good old 2008-era Kiryienka rather than any kind of GC mind.

I don't think Movistar will have any GC ambitions really. Not without having to get into a ton of breaks, but I just don't see where that's going to come either. They'll probably stick a bunch of support behind Rojas now I guess.

After all, they may never have had a genuine victory threat à la Valverde, but they've really had a terrible time this year.

Potential GT and stage race GC men on Movistar:
David Arroyo (finished just outside the top 10 at the Giro, back at his usual kind of level)
Marzio Bruseghin (embroiled in Mantova Investigation, withdrawn from Giro)
Beñat Intxausti (his head is not in the right place right now and that he's even riding right now is creditable and admirable, so no pressure or expectation should be placed on his shoulders)
Sérgio Pardilla (very quiet season adapting to life at the top - has come off the Giro)
Rubén Plaza (shattered his leg in early March, only just got back into races at the nationals)
Juan Mauricio Soler (life-threatening crash at the Tour de Suisse)
Xavier Tondó (RIP)

 

[Angliru]

I think that once the big 4 have settled the pecking order 3 of them will be toast and the other quite done.

every GC guy talks about saving energy in the 1st week, this year is different the 1st week the GC guys will need to be on their game then 1st couple of Mountain stages to decide who the leader is can´t see it being good this year.

ps looking at the team comp - Garmin in for a look.

Leipheimer and Kloden will lose time at some point in the first week, likely on the stage that looks like they had LBL in mind when they plotted out the route. Neither of them are any good in hilly classics while Horner has consistently shown that he has the savvy to maintain his postion in the front group and battle it out with the elites in the Ardennes. Brajkovic seems just too frail to be able to endure the 3 weeks of a grand tour without getting sick or injured or simply running out of gas. I see Horner being the one that has the more consistent ride and thus take the undisputed team leadership role going into the 3rd week with Leipheimer and Brajkovic as domestiques and Kloden floating in and out of the top ten in the gc. Horner may surprise and back up his tall words touting his climbing prowess. He's got quite an engine and a fine tactical mind.

 

[The Hitch]

Really disappointing Giro for the Super Mountain Domestiques will they perform better

Ever heard of Przemyslaw Niemiec?

 

[Gloin22]

ever heard of przemyslaw niemiec?

+100000000

 

[just some guy]

Ever heard of Przemyslaw Niemiec?

So one guy makes up for 15 then ?

 

[Angliru]

What happened to Navarro? The guy was a beast at the TDF last year and he was nowhere to be seen at the Giro.

After Contador established his dominance early in the Giro, Navarro likely was told to save his matches for the Tour. Hernandez was more prominent in the Giro than Navarro and that was prbably part of their long term plan. With his primary threats already intimidated by Contador's form, they (Nibali and Scarponi) were left to try to respond to Contador's aggressions. Their's were immediately brought back by Contador, issuing a constant blow to their morale.

I see the Schleck's as being their own worst enemies. Andy still says that he just hopes one of them wins the Tour, it doesn't matter who. Will Frank be willing to risk his chances and standing in the gc by attacking on the penultimate climb of a stage with chance of getting reeled in and dropped, losing time? Will the potential reward outweigh the risk in their minds? Will Andy once again be trying to multi-task, win the Tour and get his brother on the podium or vice-versa? That complicated strategy seems a bit much for the tactically challenged Schleck's and their management staff of fluffers and yesmen. If we see them pull another dual attack ala L-B-L then we know that they haven't learned from their mistakes and are destined to be bent over a counter again. They'll be on their backs, legs up in the air while Contador, Riis and Saxo Bank scratch their bellies like the submissives they showed themselves to be back in late April.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Andy has the best domestique in Spartacus. He'll be worth a minute alone in the TTT and Andy can just sit behind that big backside all day on the flat, sheltering from the wind.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The best single domestique is probably either Navarro or Szmyd.

Navarro because he didn't expand too much energy in the Giro to help Contador as pointed out either with a max HR of 120. He will be fine for the Tour.

Szmyd is always awesome. If he is on 2010 Giro form.

The best overall team will be either Saxo or Leopard or Rabo.

Saxo's only problem could be tiredness after the Giro but CAS can help AC.

Leopard have big engines on the Flat and strong guys like Monfort on the Climbs.

However, if Radioshack have a big shake up in the Pyrenees and only have 1 GC guy challenging, then they will be awesome.

Rabo have Mollema, Sanchez, Garate for the climbs and Boom etc for the flat.

I personally think Saxo will be fine with helpers but who knows but Leopard can't go there thinking that Saxo will be tired. They have to go there there thinking they will be at there best.

Navarro no matter what will be tired. You can't soft pedal through the giro and if a guy like him didn't lift his heart rate above 120 then he'd be struggling to make the time limit.

 

[Midnightfright]

What about tony martin for Cav. That is his role this year right . To be the leadout slave? Atleast that's what I presume , I've not heard anyone suggesting he could achieve more.

 

[Chef_Vodnik]

After Contador established his dominance early in the Giro, Navarro likely was told to save his matches for the Tour. Hernandez was more prominent in the Giro than Navarro and that was prbably part of their long term plan. With his primary threats already intimidated by Contador's form, they (Nibali and Scarponi) were left to try to respond to Contador's aggressions. Their's were immediately brought back by Contador, issuing a constant blow to their morale.

I see the Schleck's as being their own worst enemies. Andy still says that he just hopes one of them wins the Tour, it doesn't matter who. Will Frank be willing to risk his chances and standing in the gc by attacking on the penultimate climb of a stage with chance of getting reeled in and dropped, losing time? Will the potential reward outweigh the risk in their minds? Will Andy once again be trying to multi-task, win the Tour and get his brother on the podium or vice-versa? That complicated strategy seems a bit much for the tactically challenged Schleck's and their management staff of fluffers and yesmen. If we see them pull another dual attack ala L-B-L then we know that they haven't learned from their mistakes and are destined to be bent over a counter again. They'll be on their backs, legs up in the air while Contador, Riis and Saxo Bank scratch their bellies like the submissives they showed themselves to be back in late April.

My guess is they'll try for the double attack on the first hard mountains day to see how it goes, that's for sure. I don't know if they're smart enough to change it up when it doesn't quite work, though.

 

[luckyboy]

Andy has the best domestique in Spartacus. He'll be worth a minute alone in the TTT

No way are Leopard taking that much on Saxo in the TTT.

The field was only spread over 1'13" in the Giro TTT, and that was only 3km shorter than the Tour TTT.

 

[Jolleh]

One man! Lars ''****ing'' BAK we will see him pull the peloton, control the break every single day on that flat

 

[roundabout]

No way are Leopard taking that much on Saxo in the TTT.

The field was only spread over 1'13" in the Giro TTT, and that was only 3km shorter than the Tour TTT.

I am not sure that this was his point.

 

[Publicus]

I thought I would put some of this in perspective as it relates to Saxo Bank/Leopard Trek, though we could perform this exercise with all of the teams. I looked up the race days, kilometers raced and CQ efficiency (CQ pts/kilometers raced) of the mountain domestiques and GC candidates for both:

Saxo Bank Race Days KMs CQ Eff

Alberto Contador 44 6,936.1 24.13
Jesus Hernandez 42 6,690.6 0.63
Dani Navarro 42 6,690.6 0.82
Ritche Porte 55 8,053.9 1.45

Leopard Trek

Andy Schleck 46 7,024 6.86
Frank Schleck 42 6,419.5 10.73
Maxime Monfort 42 6,487.3 4.47
Jakob Fuglsgang 51 7,688.2 4.46


Now what this says to me is that even though Saxo's domestiques have logged more miles, they've not been finishing high up and going into the red. Comparatively, Maxime and Jakob have ridden their kilometers much harder in the sense they've produced significantly more CQ points in slightly fewer kilometers. I come to that conclusion by comparing Andy and AC. Andy's ridden more kilometers than AC, but the CQ efficiency tells you how those kilometers were ridden. In Andy's case, mainly not for points. Whereas comparatively speaking, AC is essentially ALWAYS going for the win or placing highly.

Nothing very scientific and definitely open to interpretation, revision and discussion, but I thought it would be interesting to look at some data points to fill in the discussion.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I thought I would put some of this in perspective as it relates to Saxo Bank/Leopard Trek, though we could perform this exercise with all of the teams. I looked up the race days, kilometers raced and CQ efficiency (CQ pts/kilometers raced) of the mountain domestiques and GC candidates for both:

Saxo Bank Race Days KMs CQ Eff

Alberto Contador 44 6,936.1 24.13
Jesus Hernandez 42 6,690.6 0.63
Dani Navarro 42 6,690.6 0.82
Ritche Porte 55 8,053.9 1.45

Leopard Trek

Andy Schleck 46 7,024 6.86
Frank Schleck 42 6,419.5 10.73
Maxime Monfort 42 6,487.3 4.47
Jakob Fuglsgang 51 7,688.2 4.46


Now what this says to me is that even though Saxo's domestiques have logged more miles, they've not been finishing high up and going into the red. Comparatively, Maxime and Jakob have ridden their kilometers much harder in the sense they've produced significantly more CQ points in slightly fewer kilometers. I come to that conclusion by comparing Andy and AC. Andy's ridden more kilometers than AC, but the CQ efficiency tells you how those kilometers were ridden. In Andy's case, mainly not for points. Whereas comparatively speaking, AC is essentially ALWAYS going for the win or placing highly.

Nothing very scientific and definitely open to interpretation, revision and discussion, but I thought it would be interesting to look at some data points to fill in the discussion.

race days is not an accurate comparison. A rider who has done the giro could have done less days than a rider that hasn't even though they have more race days. Andy's argument is certainly more valid as rider A could take part in the Giro + other stage races and Rider B could ride more race days but just do 1 week stage races. Rider A will still be more tired. I find it hard to see Richie Porte being of much assistance. 55 race days of which he participated in Romandie going into the Giro then doing the Tour will be too much.