Battle of the Super Domestique - tour 2011

[Cimber]

.

Btw u got any numbers on Tosatto? Cos I got the feeling he has done a LOT of miles with the cobbled classics and the Giro. But hey, a good diesel engine is better the more miles you do

Anyways for the super domestique I am going with Szmyd again. He was a little disappointing in the Giro but he will be ready for the Tour I think. And he wont only be a great domestique for Basso, he will be great for all the favorites who gets dropped by Andy and Bertie

For leopard I expect Fuglsagn to crack in the higher mountains again, but on the otherhand I expect alot from Monfort and for me Gerdeman is a interesting wild card.

For SBS I am unsure about Navarro and Jesus because of the Giro, but I expect Navarro to be there again, and I also think CAS will be very good. He seems to be better than last year anyways.

Regarding the RS arent they all super domestiques without a real leader?

 

[Midnightfright]

Btw u got any numbers on Tosatto? Cos I got the feeling he has done a LOT of miles with the cobbled classics and the Giro. But hey, a good diesel engine is better the more miles you do

Anyways for the super domestique I am going with Szmyd again. He was a little disappointing in the Giro but he will be ready for the Tour I think. And he wont only be a great domestique for Basso, he will be great for all the favorites who gets dropped by Andy and Bertie

For leopard I expect Fuglsagn to crack in the higher mountains again, but on the otherhand I expect alot from Monfort and for me Gerdeman is a interesting wild card.

For SBS I am unsure about Navarro and Jesus because of the Giro, but I expect Navarro to be there again, and I also think CAS will be very good. He seems to be better than last year anyways.

Regarding the RS arent they all super domestiques without a real leader?

that could be a call for szmyd. The pelotons super-domestique.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

He's called Philippe Gilbert.

 

[Midnightfright]

He's called Philippe Gilbert.

I think winning 14 stages, the yellow jersey, points jersey, kom and inexplicably the young rides jersey will probably disqualify him from super-domestique contention.

 

[AlejandroValverde]

Kiryjenka can be a really super dometique if he works for some top rider. In this race he would probably be racing for himself (maybe for Benat).

Szmyd said, his form is now really good and he's looking forward to toughest stages. But I don't believe in Basso, so Pole's all work can be wasted

I will be also glad to see Barredo and Garate in front. They can do really well and Gesink has certainly the best domestiques including spaniards with LuLu and of course TGBM

Of course, Leopard will do a great effort to stay in front, but in the highest mountains, I can see only Schleck Bros there.

 

[Publicus]

race days is not an accurate comparison. A rider who has done the giro could have done less days than a rider that hasn't even though they have more race days. Andy's argument is certainly more valid as rider A could take part in the Giro + other stage races and Rider B could ride more race days but just do 1 week stage races. Rider A will still be more tired. I find it hard to see Richie Porte being of much assistance. 55 race days of which he participated in Romandie going into the Giro then doing the Tour will be too much.

I don't disagree that merely comparing race days and kilometers is an adequate metric or an air tight one. In fact that is why I thought the CQ Efficiency figure was important to consider. For example, Andy has more race days and kilometers than AC--not a significant amount but more. Now we know Andy doesn't race very hard save the Ardennes Classics and the 3 weeks of the Tour, which is reflected in his paltry CQE of 6.86. Contador is different he races to win and has a pretty good track record (CQE of 24.13). I expect him to be more fatigued simply because it theoretically takes far more energy (and thus fatigue) to be competitive in every race you enter.

All of that being said, this is very crude and only a single data point. What I was trying to do was put some hard facts out there to go along with the anecdotal analysis everyone seems to be conducting as it relates to the domestiques. Navarro and Hernandez haven't raced appreciably more miles than the Leopard Trek riders and their CQE (each below 1) suggests that they haven't raced as hard or efficiently compared to the LT mountain domestiques. As for Ritchie he seems a lot more like Andy in that he spent A LOT of time in the gruppetto in most of the races he's entered. He didn't seem to really come around until the end of the Giro.

 

[Midnightfright]

I don't disagree that merely comparing race days and kilometers is an adequate metric or an air tight one. In fact that is why I thought the CQ Efficiency figure was important to consider. For example, Andy has more race days and kilometers than AC--not a significant amount but more. Now we know Andy doesn't race very hard save the Ardennes Classics and the 3 weeks of the Tour, which is reflected in his paltry CQE of 6.86. Contador is different he races to win and has a pretty good track record (CQE of 24.13). I expect him to be more fatigued simply because it theoretically takes far more energy (and thus fatigue) to be competitive in every race you enter.

All of that being said, this is very crude and only a single data point. What I was trying to do was put some hard facts out there to go along with the anecdotal analysis everyone seems to be conducting as it relates to the domestiques. Navarro and Hernandez haven't raced appreciably more miles than the Leopard Trek riders and their CQE (each below 1) suggests that they haven't raced as hard or efficiently compared to the LT mountain domestiques. As for Ritchie he seems a lot more like Andy in that he spent A LOT of time in the gruppetto in most of the races he's entered. He didn't seem to really come around until the end of the Giro.

It's hard to tell with richie if he's made a conscious descion to ride in the grupetto though.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I think winning 14 stages, the yellow jersey, points jersey, kom and inexplicably the young rides jersey will probably disqualify him from super-domestique contention.

But i'm sure he'll still find some time to help VDB in some stages.

Anyway, just read an interview with VDB: he claims a guy like Lang is much more important in a stage race than a mountain domestique.

 

[Midnightfright]

But i'm sure he'll still find some time to help VDB in some stages.

Anyway, just read an interview with VDB: he claims a guy like Lang is much more important in a stage race than a mountain domestique.

its certainly a way of giving Lang a nice confidence boost. I can u understand what he means. I can imagine for a slighter built rider have a good strong roleur to protect them on flat stages can save them a lot of energy.

 

[just some guy]

But i'm sure he'll still find some time to help VDB in some stages.

Anyway, just read an interview with VDB: he claims a guy like Lang is much more important in a stage race than a mountain domestique.

Evans claims Manuel Quinziato is BMC most important signing for the same reasons -

for Andy, Contador they need the mountain guys

Basso, the Radioshack 1 + 3, Rabo and Sammy have them

VDB2, Evans, Wiggins don´t need them will have other teams to do the work for them - so flat and medium, early mountains important.

When it all goes off anyway there will be no Mountain Domestiques around anyway

 

[Midnightfright]

Evans claims Manuel Quinziato is BMC most important signing for the same reasons -

for Andy, Contador they need the mountain guys

Basso, the Radioshack 1 + 3, Rabo and Sammy have them

VDB2, Evans, Wiggins don´t need them will have other teams to do the work for them - so flat and medium, early mountains important.

When it all goes off anyway there will be no Mountain Domestiques around anyway

Unless u count frank as a domestique

 

[Publicus]

Btw u got any numbers on Tosatto? Cos I got the feeling he has done a LOT of miles with the cobbled classics and the Giro. But hey, a good diesel engine is better the more miles you do

Oh I have them. And you are correct. 8,991.3 KM over 53 race days. N Sorenson comes close with 8,600 km over 57 race days.

 

[greenedge]

LTD, Syzmd, Navarro , Frank, Fuglsang, Jani ( because retirement briings the best out of you ) , CAS. It's out of these people. Uran and Gilbert will be as well. I think Tosatto should have been replaced by Larsson or maybe even Cooke, unless if Tosatto is needed to bring back any break very quickly/ accelerate out of corners like most sprinters for the TTT. Busche, Sastre and Grabsch shall also be missed

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

What about tony martin for Cav. That is his role this year right . To be the leadout slave? Atleast that's what I presume , I've not heard anyone suggesting he could achieve more.

not leadout slave but he pulls the break back in without the leadout train expending too much energy before the last 20ish Ks. I always thought he was really great at this role and it was cool to see

 

[42x16ss]

It's hard to tell with richie if he's made a conscious descion to ride in the grupetto though.

For some reason, right throughout the Giro I had the impression that Porte and Navarro were only there as Contador's "get out of jail free card" in case the proverbial hit the fan and Alberto needed big support FAST. Simply sit back, see how he's going and be ready just in case.

I might be wrong though . However both of them have hardly raced since the Giro and seem to be working with Contador and Riis closely leading up to the Tour, so I'm assuming they will be more than ready and then getting a loooong rest afterwards.

 

[Tuarts]

Richie will be riding in support of Contador first, eg to stay with him to help as long as possible and then his own GC position second.

So whilst I reckon that he wont be one of the main mountain domestiques (Navarro and CAS) I think you'll see Richie as 2nd helper each (major) stage and come in with the 3rd or 4th group in the mountains, getting himself into position for 15th-20ths on GC by the end of the time trial.

Interestingly, CAS has said he'd wants to go for the KOM if able.

 

[Angliru]

LTD, Syzmd, Navarro , Frank, Fuglsang, Jani ( because retirement briings the best out of you ) , CAS. It's out of these people. Uran and Gilbert will be as well. I think Tosatto should have been replaced by Larsson or maybe even Cooke, unless if Tosatto is needed to bring back any break very quickly/ accelerate out of corners like most sprinters for the TTT. Busche, Sastre and Grabsch shall also be missed

Tosatto is Saxo's road captain and assigned to protect Contador from the wind on the flats. His presence will be quite valuable should teams try to exploit what they see as a Contador weakness in dealing with windy conditions that result in the forming of echelons. His experience is immeasurable and likely the reason he's been selected over Larsson.

 

[Nastyy]

Seems like Voigt and Rolland are winning this battle right now. Szmyd also going decent enough.

 

[jens_attacks]

rolland by far.insane shiit.
nice to see szmyd and voigt doing damage as always though

 

[luckyboy]

When Szmyd got on the front, the gap went from 1.15 to about 40 seconds, amazing domestique.

Also Rolland was great today.

 

[roundabout]

And then back up from 40 to 1.15

 

[luckyboy]

Yeah it slowed up when Europcar got back on the front.

 

[El Pistolero]

F*ck them all! There can only be one...

Jelle Vanendert!

 

[Nastyy]

Yeah it slowed up when Europcar got back on the front.

Nah, the gap started to increase while Szmyd was still pulling, then he faded and Rolland worked for very short while before Schlecks started their attacks.

 

[Fus087]

After the Pyrénées, I have to say Rolland.