being on the record...manifesto baby

[blutto]

Re:

1) I like manifestos in general.

2) Professional sports are about money, not sport. They are a simulacrum of sport, one in which their starring figures make a Faustian bargain in exchange for fame, fake glory, and, in exceptional cases, real riches.

3) In a system that is corrupt through and through, such as professional sports, fame can turn to infamy in a flash. The true stars of pro sports are not the players but the big money behind the scenes, and they won't tolerate anyone, or anything, who threatens their interests.

4) The only hope for reforming pro sport into something healthy and wholesome is a strong players union controlled by the players, combined with open discussion among enlightened fans who demand better than they are getting.

5) Lance Armstrong is a reprehensible character, but he is as much a victim as a perpetrator and a straw man where corruption in cycle sport is concerned. The sport is as corrupt now as it was in his heyday.

6) Today's cycling stars - Froome, Wiggins, Horner, et al. - and their teams, are as fake as Fox News. Vaughters and his team are no exception, far from it.

7) I too despise Bruce Springsteen.

....actually Brucie is/can be ok.....some of the fans not so much.....similar problem to the Dead crowd...

 

[42x16ss]

anti-brit bias aside. is "the most incredible donkey to racehorse" stuff, about Froome, somehow related to the how the people perceive what should be fair or not?
is that thing choking in the followers throats every time they see Froome, because it is not allowed?
because ok gimme Boonen or Alberto and I will close eyes and ears and WANT to support them, while seeing Froome do the same it touches the "truth" alarm and also involves Alberto and Boonen and Nibali and all the others cause they dope too?
is Froome madness also ringing a bell for everyone? and that means people really understand they support dopers too, while before they pretended they didnt see? they pretended it was normal, it was the old euro doping tradition?
are we seeing the pesky brits doing what they werent supposed to do, go berzerk, win the Tours, and shake the old status quo where the old nations did the same but it was always so and it was fine?

Yes it's all about Brit bashing. :lol:

We've never had this discussion before

 

[Freddythefrog]

Like other posts - not sure where else this could go.

https://twitter.com/andrewrheyes/status/935818911605514240

@mdsportex discussing causes of inadvertent Doping @ukantidoping @basesuk #BASESFEPSAC17 Examples such as Baxter, Williams and Warburton, Contador, Sharapova. Athletes must take care when purchasing medication and supplements


Dr Ian D. Boardley
@mdsportex

Senior Lecturer in Sport Psychology. Research specialisms in moral disengagement, anti-doping, & prosocial & antisocial behaviour.

Its hard to believe that in 2017 after all the *** of the last 30 years "inadvertent doping" is the best fit to Sharapova, Contador, Warburton and Williams. I suppose these are the numpties Raimondas Rumsas was targetting when he told then that van full of PEDs his wife was trafficing around France were for his mother in Law ?

Ian what is that doctorate in - "the nutritional requirements of unicorns and the effects on the UKs pixie population" ? The "wrong people"....... Yeah I will remember that next time, Edita must take care what meds she buys to help out her mother's ticklish, nightime, chesty, cough. Thanks, If I had only known.

 

[pastronef]

from the Froome thread question about reactions towards other riders if they were involved is a positive case like Froome

What would you, Sky fans, think if the subject was Nibali or Quintana or any other GC rider?

I´d buy a bucket of popcorns and enjoy the show. I am a Sky fan and I am interested in Sky and try to remember clinic posts and tweets and try to defend them (rightly and wrongly, I know)
I am not a hater nor focused on cyclists I dont like (or despise). I dont know what Nibali, Quintana, Sagan, Aru or other GC guys are doing, if they are on Strava, what they said in the interviews these years, if they wrote a book, the finish orders of the races they raced 2-3-4-7-10 years ago, where are they training every day, I dont check theit twitter or instagram, I dont know how many doctors their team have, if they train with motorpacing, if they use the same kit every day, if they are thin or fat, I dont know the average speed of their training, the zones of training power, their hearthrate etc. I dont care.
so I couldnt be on here analyzing their every action, words, pedal stroke, race finish and so on.
I would enjoy the show and read the reactions on here, but I can´t contribute to the accusations, or defence of these riders, because I dont know very much. I know it´s subjective.
I am a Sky defender but I wouldnt have the same drive in accusing any rider. sure, I would enjoy very much if Nibs or Sagan got caught, not for them, not because I want them to be erased and never see them ride, but for the fans, to see the fans reactions.

 

[thehog]

from the Froome thread question about reactions towards other riders if they were involved is a positive case like Froome

What would you, Sky fans, think if the subject was Nibali or Quintana or any other GC rider?

I´d buy a bucket of popcorns and enjoy the show. I am a Sky fan and I am interested in Sky and try to remember clinic posts and tweets and try to defend them (rightly and wrongly, I know)
I am not a hater nor focused on cyclists I dont like (or despise). I dont know what Nibali, Quintana, Sagan, Aru or other GC guys are doing, if they are on Strava, what they said in the interviews these years, if they wrote a book, the finish orders of the races they raced 2-3-4-7-10 years ago, where are they training every day, I dont check theit twitter or instagram, I dont know how many doctors their team have, if they train with motorpacing, if they use the same kit every day, if they are thin or fat, I dont know the average speed of their training, the zones of training power, their hearthrate etc. I dont care.
so I couldnt be on here analyzing their every action, words, pedal stroke, race finish and so on.
I would enjoy the show and read the reactions on here, but I can´t contribute to the accusations, or defence of these riders, because I dont know very much. I know it´s subjective.
I am a Sky defender but I wouldnt have the same drive in accusing any rider. sure, I would enjoy very much if Nibs or Sagan got caught, not for them, not because I want them to be erased and never see them ride, but for the fans, to see the fans reactions.

I wish Gooner was still about but his blind faith lead him to deleting his account. Same happened with Lance, the most rabid just disappeared.

 

[fantomas]

Not sure where else to put this. I just listened to a podcast from Danish TV 2, and the journalist said that "it is well-known that the 90's and some of the nougties were different than now regarding doping."

Really? Is that well-known? Isn't it just the narrative journos and insiders have been (successfully) pushing? I am neither for nor against doping and enjoy te sport regardless, but I have no doubt that doping in cycling hasn't mysteriously decreased (dramatically) in the last 10-15 years.

 

[Forever The Best]

Not sure where else to put this. I just listened to a podcast from Danish TV 2, and the journalist said that "it is well-known that the 90's and some of the nougties were different than now regarding doping."

Really? Is that well-known? Isn't it just the narrative journos and insiders have been (successfully) pushing? I am neither for nor against doping and enjoy te sport regardless, but I have no doubt that doping in cycling hasn't mysteriously decreased (dramatically) in the last 10-15 years.

I think a bump is needed given that current riders are pretty much on that level, only behind the very best times of the 90s. Vingegaard was Top 20 all time in Alpe d'Huez ( he and Pogacar could have gone faster ) and Hautacam ( he and Pogacar were battling already in Spandelles ).

I think cycling as a whole has decided to look away and let some other sport become the laughing stock of casuals with doping cases.

 

[SafeBet]

I think a bump is needed given that current riders are pretty much on that level, only behind the very best times of the 90s. Vingegaard was Top 20 all time in Alpe d'Huez ( he and Pogacar could have gone faster ) and Hautacam ( he and Pogacar were battling already in Spandelles ).

I think cycling as a whole has decided to look away and let some other sport become the laughing stock of casuals with doping cases.

Concur with this.
Everybody has an interest to look away and make the sport more entertaining / marketable.
They cannot afford to bring Netflix in and then uncover the biggest doping scandal in years. Won't happen. There must be some sort of agreement, as there is in most pro sports.

Jumbo kinda disturbs me though. We used to laugh at them, now it's their turn to laugh at us.

 

[BR2]

It's not a single tree, it's the forrest we see that shows us that there's poison in the ground:

- fastest Tour average?
check

- climbing times in areas of famous dopers?
check

- peloton à deux vitesses?
check

- riders who can do it all?
check

- a few select riders who don't ever seem to get tired?
check

- riders rising from good to spectacular on one specific team?
check

- sudden transformations from one day to the other?
check

I don't know what it is. But there's something siginificant and rather new in the peloton, something only a few teams are using or using effectively. There are clear differences in the way that Jumbo and UAE work, but both teams look nuclear at least in parts. Don't know about a smaller team like for instance in this Tour Israel.

Anyway, I just hope someone cleans this up a bit.

 

[Miss Violet Smith]

My personal manifesto: I really, really don't like doping. I understand why it happens and why it keeps happening; in all professional sports, the differences are tiny and whatever gives an advantage is apparently worth the risk, and so it goes.

There are three sports I follow: cycling, cross-country skiing and biathlon. (Great choices for someone who doesn't like doping.) Because I want to enjoy these sports, I try to not think too much about their history or the nature of professional sports in general. A sort of wilful ignorance if you like. But I'm also not stupid.

P. S. Oh, and I really like Bruce Springsteen.

 

[pastronef]

in any case, I think about Jorgenson every day and I so want him to go full *** at the TDF. that Oman stage win in early 2022 started my bandwagoning. yes, I'm cheering a RaboJumbo rider, how tables have turned!
I simply gave up trying to explain to the anti-Sky and anti-Brits who Leinders worked for, for years, before 2 summers at Sky. and telling them to compare climbing times of Sky vs RaboJumbo (SKy would be crushed). I gave up. it's useless. now I go all-in for Jorgenson.
and by July I'll be on the Froomegaard bandwagon too maybe. same thinness, same charisma if he shows up 100% and smashes the TDF (including a Monaco TT faster than Combloux) I'll go crazy and smile. I totally gave up. I argued too much.
and the British hubris is on par with Plugge's Dutch hubris. and the twitter Sky defenders back then, now have Benji and the other guy (both officially hired by Visma ffs). so I say it's a draw. no need to keep going Fausto. *** watch and enjoy. in any case my WVA dislike stays.

 

[veganrob]

in any case, I think about Jorgenson every day and I so want him to go full *** at the TDF. that Oman stage win in early 2022 started my bandwagoning. yes, I'm cheering a RaboJumbo rider, how tables have turned!
I simply gave up trying to explain to the anti-Sky and anti-Brits who Leinders worked for, for years, before 2 summers at Sky. and telling them to compare climbing times of Sky vs RaboJumbo (SKy would be crushed). I gave up. it's useless. now I go all-in for Jorgenson.
and by July I'll be on the Froomegaard bandwagon too maybe. same thinness, same charisma if he shows up 100% and smashes the TDF (including a Monaco TT faster than Combloux) I'll go crazy and smile. I totally gave up. I argued too much.
and the British hubris is on par with Plugge's Dutch hubris. and the twitter Sky defenders back then, now have Benji and the other guy (both officially hired by Visma ffs). so I say it's a draw. no need to keep going Fausto. *** watch and enjoy. in any case my WVA dislike stays.

Nice!

 

[pastronef]

Nice!

my dislike for Cian remains too. maybe it'll go away as time goes by ahah. the dislike for WVA I don't know. he beat many riders I liked. same as Sagan

 

[pastronef]

ok. UAE Tour funded by the bottomless pockets of the Sheiks, UAE team leader in UAE Tour leader's jersey attacks and goes in the break.
one side blaming him, the other praising for giving spark to a boring stage. all of this with the Emirates panoramas and infrastructure and views in the background.
and the neverending question about what's "good for cycling" and what's "bad for cycling".
but which cycling? the 2025 cycling? the European cycling vs the new wealthy nations? the fans of cycling?

 

[Gratemans]

Today I've been thinking about the clinic and what we've seen the past few years, so here's my manifesto:

It's kinda weird that I can enjoy cyclists competing with eachother even if they're on something. I mean ok, otherwise I should have stopped watching this sport decades ago. Hell, I was a big fan of Vinokourov even But you know, the competition part is kind of important to me. When the differences get too big, it gets frustrating. Especially if those riders are being cheered on in an almost cult-like way by a new generation of fanatical fans that are convinced they're doing it clean. Nowadays Pog and Jonas, used to be Froome, Armstrong.
The point I got frustrated again was Vingegaards ungodly timetrial. I was with someone who was cheering out loud (someone who's been watching cycling for decades as well) and I just looked at him like 'wtf, you seriously believe this?!' Then 2024 Pogacar came along, which was even more ridiculous. I don't think we've ever seen gaps in performances that big compared to the rest of the field, actually. Not even in Armstrongs days (I still hate that dude btw because he actually ruined peoples lives to cover up all his ****.)

And I completely agree with SafeBet here:

Concur with this.
Everybody has an interest to look away and make the sport more entertaining / marketable.
They cannot afford to bring Netflix in and then uncover the biggest doping scandal in years. Won't happen. There must be some sort of agreement, as there is in most pro sports.

Jumbo kinda disturbs me though. We used to laugh at them, now it's their turn to laugh at us.

Cycling, while not yet a really big sport, is by now too big to fail. UCI will not intervene. I'm pretty sure they never actually sat down, but there is a silent agreement, an understanding if you will, amongst all parties involved.

And something I mentioned earlier, that often gets overlooked imo: journalists. Back in the day, even up to the early 00's or '10's even, journalists were paid quite well and were often on long-term contracts. Newspapers had subscribers and weren't dependant on clicks. Nowadays, they're pretty much all freelancers that are (and this bit is important) completely dependant on the sport they're covering. Nobody dares to bite the hand that feeds them. So there will be no new Walsh.

I don't know. Will the 2025 Tour be fun when we can blindly put down who will take the top two spots?
I used to enjoy Contador, Schleck, Nibali, Wiggins, Valverde, Rodriguez and their contemporaries battle it out in Grand Tours. Were they riding clean? Very probably not, but they were all close in level. It was exciting. Nowadays, not so much

 

[b0ydman]

I think I have been here since 2005. Friends who were continental pro, taught me enough to recognise it. As did growing up in Adelaide with friends in the very good South Australian program taught me that "nice people" are on programs, and these are institutionally applied programs too

I was sad when Stuart O'Grady went to Astana (?) and one year basically pulled the whole peleton behind him for an entire TdF. That was a bit too obvious Stu

I'm in my 50s, under no illusion about many things in life, including cycling

I want to watch it, but its not worth staying up through the night to see the demoralising inevitable

I occasionally catch up on the 8 minute short highlight covering the race and I struggle to get to the end of it now. Bunches hanging in there until one of the 3 super humans pulls away with total ease from the last bunch - at the moment when everyone stands up on a grinding incline and falters. And away they go, hunchback

Its not that it is obvious, it is that it is insulting.

UCI are killing the golden goose. They're meant to ensure the wins are shared around or the casual viewer will just walk away and forget about it. And the casual viewer is the margins and the bonuses

And UCI you can't let them win the way these guys are. Every race, Every TT. Every classic. 2 grand tours back to back in a season, etc

It must be demoralising for the rest of the bunch and teams busting their guts to jag a win. Where is the sport going? What is the point?

The sport is in trouble if it doesn't pull this in. Real trouble. If/ when a scandal comes out it will be a disaster. Hopefully it will just be a new version of Dr Jeckly's special bread and water.

If it is a mechanical discovery from any of these guys (as it clearly was for too long since at least the Froome era and some Cancellara's thrown in et al) the sport could be dead in the water for many years.

I can't imagine that. But I can imagine broadcasters wondering if its worth the money paying for the rights next season. I mean who is left watching this now?