Bernie Kohl - for all those fed-up with discussions about doping

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JavierOtxoa said:
Excuse me, but sounds like LA's words, talking with Bassons ... I't a mess what happened in sport rtegarding doping. You can't hide your head in the sand and say everything is just fine.
But doping are largely used in every major sport not only in cycling. It can be such an HUGE amount of doped rider in cycling and this phenomenon be ONLY in cycling. Again, it is very very strange what happened with Operacion Puerto, when there was rumours about the involving of other sports, like football or tenis.
So saying something about doping in cycling means you are destroying it??? No, those who destroy cycling are the doped riders, and all those who cover them and get money and fame from dope, team managers, doctors etc...
I know judo champions who had big problems with their hearts,livers, impotency and other hormons disturb. , few years after they quit sport, all of them very young, 30-40 years old...
You clearly don't understand the point I was making. I wasn't attacking the fact that he was mentioning doping in cycling in perticular but WHAT he was saying.

What we had there was a fan that said that something like "You can't compete in cycling without dope" The part I take offence to is the "can't compete" part not the "in cycling" part.

What's destroying the sport is the insane thought that you HAVE TO DOPE to compete. That's the attitude that's destroying cycling and any other sport where this mentality is prevalent. That's the root of the culture.

As long as people go around thinking that everyone else is doping so I have to do it as well then the problem will never go away.

I'm sure the problem with doping is bigger than what has been revealed and that there are still doping communities out there that hasn't been busted. Vienna wasn't the first and probably not the last. That doesn't mean that everyone cheats. I think the number of people that people think are cheating is larger than the number that actaully are.
 
Mar 15, 2009
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@ingsve. I get the point ,but I believe ,you can't compete without dope, too. Of course if my son want to compete, I'll not say like: '' don't compete because you can't without dope''. But lots of rider confess that comes a point, a moment, when you have to think about doping, if you want performance, if you want money if you want contracts. Of course you can compete and stay clean but will you make performance? How long you can ride if you are not winning? Domestique? Yes, even to perform as a good domestique you have to dope, otherwise you can't suport a rider who are on dope and who compete against oders dopers. Pantani, and not only, said that comes a moment when you notice the mules suddenly start riding like arab stalions ,at that momment you start thinking of doping. At least at that momment. of course depending of the riders; there are riders like Virenque ( see Villy Voet ''Braking the Chain'' )who are dispose to take anything with any cost if there is a slight chance to improve their abilities to win and gain fame=money, no mater what and what this will afect their health.
In the mater of doping, I'll always suport the idea, that police enforcements should deal with sporting drugs, because it's about money, big money,fame, and those cheater are model for the young people; it is obvious there isn't a unique Fuentes and a unique Ferrari. It is obvious it is about a network ,supliers doctors, labs, biologisst pharmacists ,team managers soigneurs etc. etc and these networks are build exactly as the ''ordinary'' drug dealer network are builded.
I love this sport and I will keep watch cycling but also I am not naive. All these ( to consider only the last 20 years of cycling) last year Casandras in cycling was right and all those who tried to minimize the drug phenomenon in cycling was wrong: Verrbrughen, ASO,UCI, Mcquaid, Spaniards judges, Le Blanc etc plus the riders and the team staff member. But, yes, because I know all these, I'm wandering how many youg boys will dream to became cycling riders? Including my own son...
 
Well, I can understand the thought that these riders must have when they suddenly notice that people that used to be on par with them make incredible leaps in performance and you suspect that they might be cheating. It can obviously be hard for them.

My problem with the whole notion of "you have to dope to have a shot" is that people seems to think that that somehow makes it ok to dope. The fact that everyone does it does not make it right.

It's only the idiot that tries to fight fire with fire. Fire is fought with water and thus doping should be fought by anti-doping and not more doping...
 
Mar 17, 2009
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If one looks at the list of busted riders: Ullrich, Basso, Landis, Valverde, Hamilton, Heras, Vino, Millar, Kohl, Garzelli, Schumacher, Santi Perez, Sevilla, just off the top of my head... these aren't amateurs trying to break in, they're top riders. Over half the TDF winners in the last 15 years have been busted for doping at one point in their career: Riis, Landis, Ullrich, and Pantani. Not suspected, actually caught and proven. Two GT winners were busted directly after winning: Landis and Heras.

Clearly, there is a serious problem.

At least cycling is trying to do something about it. They will get bad press by airing their dirty linen, while the larger, better financed sports can hush it up. For the time being, anyway.

Cycling is damned if they do, and damned if they don't attack doping. May as well be damned for doing the right thing.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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ingsve said:
My problem with the whole notion of "you have to dope to have a shot" is that people seems to think that that somehow makes it ok to dope. The fact that everyone does it does not make it right.
There is no right or wrong here. The situation is what it is. It is a systemic problem.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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ingsve said:
As long as people go around thinking that everyone else is doping so I have to do it as well then the problem will never go away.

I'm sure the problem with doping is bigger than what has been revealed .



I agree but you have some things wrong in your thinking. And I dont mean to be any kind of jerk.

when one very, VERY talented rider does not dope and another rider with "some" talent goes on a rampage while autologous blood doped the very very talented rider will dope for sure so they do not get their *** kicked. And everyone will follow suit. Upon the advent of epo in 1991 every rider was jacked because, BECAUSE somebody who raises their 1-hour threshold from 300 watts to 370 watts can now maintain 300 watts for perhaps 4 hours! So a super talent like LeMond was quickly DROPPED by the field and left in the dust of the 'caravan' of cars. And mocked by the team managers inside them to boot! And if you go back and watch these Tours, 92 and 94 you will see this.

If the average pro is autologous blood doping, they will be much, MUCH stronger then a super freak talent who is not doped. Just being able to get to 5.0 w/kg without dope mean you can get 6 with a full program. Past FREAKS like LeMond and Fingon were able to win with about 5.7.

Nowdays not everybody has the means or the knowhow to do blood dope inside the controls and most are too scared to try and do it like some have and are doing it right now (the top "heroes" of cycling. Trying to compete totally clean against another talented athlete with a 55 hematocrit is suicide. So what we see is certain teams DOMINATING. And yes, they are way ahead of the others. A 130 pound man should have no chance against another talented man at 180 who is a flat TT specialist.

Someone with just a 12% power advantage on you at VO2 max or threshold will ride you off their wheel. SO they all have to be on "something" when competing at this EXTREMELY high level in order to not be dropped like a stone.

You cannot do a breakaway with someone who is 10% more power than you.... Unless you wheelsuck the whole way.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BroDeal said:
There is no right or wrong here. The situation is what it is. It is a systemic problem.
I'd say there is most definitely something wrong! Simply saying that the situation "is what it is", is quite possibly the root of the problem.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Cribbo said:
I'd say there is most definitely something wrong! Simply saying that the situation "is what it is", is quite possibly the root of the problem.
Systemic problems happen frequently. Over the last few years millions of Americans commited mortgage fraud. They lied about their incomes or owner occupancy or whatever. They did not do it because they are "bad" people. They just did what everyone else was doing, and fraud had become standard procedure in the industry. It is useless to pin the blame on individuals in a systemic problem. The problem is the system not the people. And in cycling the system is what it is; riders will continue to dope as long as the current system stays the same.

This is also why the UCI's scapegoat approach to handling the problem is grossly unfair. It is easier to pretend to fix the problem than to actually fix it. If a few unlucky riders get destroyed for doing what the UCI's knows that everyone else is doing and what everyone else will continue to do then so be it. It is good for public relations if the UCI can occasionally point to a rider and say, "There he is. That is the bad guy."
 
Mar 27, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Systemic problems happen frequently. Over the last few years millions of Americans commited mortgage fraud. They lied about their incomes or owner occupancy or whatever. They did not do it because they are "bad" people. They just did what everyone else was doing, and fraud had become standard procedure in the industry. It is useless to pin the blame on individuals in a systemic problem. The problem is the system not the people. And in cycling the system is what it is; riders will continue to dope as long as the current system stays the same.

This is also why the UCI's scapegoat approach to handling the problem is grossly unfair. It is easier to pretend to fix the problem than to actually fix it. If a few unlucky riders get destroyed for doing what the UCI's knows that everyone else is doing and what everyone else will continue to do then so be it. It is good for public relations if the UCI can occasionally point to a rider and say, "There he is. That is the bad guy."
I would agree which is why, as I said in an earlier post, I think that the only real way to change the culture is to recognise that these guys are drug addicts rather than cheats. Most western civilisations now concentrate their fight on drug dealing rather than drug use because drug use is a never ending problem as long as drug dealing exists.

Sport, and not just cycling, needs to invest more effort in catching those behind the systematic doping. At present, we only seem to catch them when a caught rider names them. That, to me, tells me that our process is wrong because we'll never catch those who are good at it.

Graham.
 

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