Best climbers in history?

[Armchair Cyclist]

In pursuit of AS if I remember correctly: my desktop pic has the same mountainside in the background, and shows Evans, Basso, Tommy, Frank, Cunego, Rolland, and Contador slightly adrift. And a guy standing at the road who looks very like Cliff from Cheers .

 

[jens_attacks]

In pursuit of AS if I remember correctly: my desktop pic has the same mountainside in the background, and shows Evans, Basso, Tommy, Frank, Cunego, Rolland, and Contador slightly adrift. And a guy standing at the road who looks very like Cliff from Cheers .

thanks that was my point but it was pages ago

santi perez was once in a lifetime kind of form,so no,no best climber of history from him.just the supreme entertaining prize for that vuelta.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What does this have to do with how good a climber Lance was?

The only riders in recent times who set off on really long range attacks are those who are KOM riders (aren't good enough to focus on GC) or are in a desperate situation (Pantani '00, Landis '06, Schleck, Contador this year). Was Tadese a better 10,000 metres runner than Gebrselassie or Bekele because he went on long range attacks? No, of course not. He wasn't quite as talented (also didn't have the sprint finish) and therefore HAD to.

If you can always win doing the same thing then why not do so? Riders aren't riding to win fans.

Tadese wasn't a better 10,000m than Gebrselassie or Bekele, no.

But the situations aren't comparable. Each 10,000m is one race. There's no stage-upon-stage-of-consecutive 10,000m. Often the riders who went on these long mountain raids were going on them NOT because the others were better climbers (we are talking about climbers here), but because the others were better GC riders. But we're not saying "who was the best GC rider of all time?", we're saying "who was the best climber?". Different questions.

To whit:
By the time the Tour got to the mountains in the Armstrong era, we'd usually had a prologue and either a TTT or an ITT. The strength of Armstrong in the chrono meant that he would usually be ahead of his GC competitors. And there would be an ITT coming up. As a result, the better climbers (if there were any) HAD TO attack from a way out, because if they didn't leave Lance behind, he was already beating them. And they had to take as much time as possible as he would beat them in the final chrono too. What this meant was that they HAD TO attack, whether they felt good or not. And with the strength of his team and his own quality as a rider, Lance was able to either settle in if he didn't feel great, and let them tire themselves out, or, if he felt good, go and take more time, because they HAD TO go with him because they couldn't lose more time - hence they'd go into the red and blow themselves up. Fuente's day after day 100km multiple pass solo breaks in the '74 Giro weren't a stylistic choice, they were his only way to win after he lost time into Sanremo - because climbing was the only area he held an advantage. It wasn't Tadese going from far, it was more like a triathlete with a slow run time going hell for leather in the cycling to try and build up enough of a lead to defend.

Both the GC riders who were in the position to let these people go from afar, and then hunt them down, and those specialist climbers who had to go from afar because they were lacking in another aspect of their GC armoury, belong in a discussion of best climbers.

 

[Duartista]

Tadese wasn't a better 10,000m than Gebrselassie or Bekele, no.

But the situations aren't comparable. Each 10,000m is one race. There's no stage-upon-stage-of-consecutive 10,000m. Often the riders who went on these long mountain raids were going on them NOT because the others were better climbers (we are talking about climbers here), but because the others were better GC riders. But we're not saying "who was the best GC rider of all time?", we're saying "who was the best climber?". Different questions.

To whit:
By the time the Tour got to the mountains in the Armstrong era, we'd usually had a prologue and either a TTT or an ITT. The strength of Armstrong in the chrono meant that he would usually be ahead of his GC competitors. And there would be an ITT coming up. As a result, the better climbers (if there were any) HAD TO attack from a way out, because if they didn't leave Lance behind, he was already beating them. And they had to take as much time as possible as he would beat them in the final chrono too. What this meant was that they HAD TO attack, whether they felt good or not. And with the strength of his team and his own quality as a rider, Lance was able to either settle in if he didn't feel great, and let them tire themselves out, or, if he felt good, go and take more time, because they HAD TO go with him because they couldn't lose more time - hence they'd go into the red and blow themselves up. Fuente's day after day 100km multiple pass solo breaks in the '74 Giro weren't a stylistic choice, they were his only way to win after he lost time into Sanremo - because climbing was the only area he held an advantage. It wasn't Tadese going from far, it was more like a triathlete with a slow run time going hell for leather in the cycling to try and build up enough of a lead to defend.

Both the GC riders who were in the position to let these people go from afar, and then hunt them down, and those specialist climbers who had to go from afar because they were lacking in another aspect of their GC armoury, belong in a discussion of best climbers.

This.

When comparing across eras, the criteria 'number of Grand Tours won in the mountains' is unreasonable. For example, the 1985 Tour had nearly 150km of individual time trialing, a 73 km team time trial (with gaps limited to a maximum of 2 mins 55secs), and at least one cobbled stage. On these stages, Herrera lost around 20 minutes altogether to Hinault, the eventual winner, and finished the race 12.53 down in 7th place. Herrera would have to have been superhuman to have made up such a deficit, so it is not surprising he went for the KOM, finishing first or second on all the big mountain stages. Perhaps if a modern TDF had a similar route, we would see the likes of the Schlecks going for long range attacks and the KOM, as they would have little chance of a GC podium.

 

[jens_attacks]

it's incredible nowadays with those ttt's of 20 km(these should be definitely removed,or a 70-80 km ttt or nothing).
and the lack of itt kms is just pathetic,from lots of rumours for next year,i've heard it will be even worse,no more than 40 km itt for a grand tour.that's plain stupid,that's the race of truth,lot of history behind and they just seem to not care about it

 

[AngusW]

And even gave away many stagewins.

I remember:
- Pantani
- Basso
- Valverde


3,2,1...till the haters march in to tell us that Lance was clearly beaten by all of them on those stages and clearly lost them without the slightest intention to gift them to anyone.
To round it up by stating that any stage ever won by Armstrong was a gift by his opponents.

I disagree with your contention that Armstrong gifted Basso and Valverde the stages. 2004 was the Tour of "pas de cadeau" (no gifts) and Armstrong admitted after the stage at La Mongie that Basso was stronger. Well, sort of.

"Ivan deserved to win the stage today...he's a hell of a good guy and he was super-strong today."

Watch the finish of the 2005 Tour stage finish at Courcheval. Valverde has the stronger sprint. Look at the expression on Armstrong's face - not the expression of someone who is happy to have gifted a stage win to a rival.

 

[El Pistolero]

I disagree with your contention that Armstrong gifted Basso and Valverde the stages. 2004 was the Tour of "pas de cadeau" (no gifts) and Armstrong admitted after the stage at La Mongie that Basso was stronger. Well, sort of.

"Ivan deserved to win the stage today...he's a hell of a good guy and he was super-strong today."

Watch the finish of the 2005 Tour stage finish at Courcheval. Valverde has the stronger sprint. Look at the expression on Armstrong's face - not the expression of someone who is happy to have gifted a stage win to a rival.

Basso was a gift, watch Overcoming.

 

[Havetts]

Basso was a gift, watch Overcoming.

Do you have a full link to the documentary? Preferred with English subtitles during the Danish pieces, if thats a possibility I dont wnat to be picky.

 

[El Pistolero]

Do you have a full link to the documentary? Preferred with English subtitles during the Danish pieces, if thats a possibility I dont wnat to be picky.

I downloaded it on piratesbay.org

You'll need a program to open torrents though.

 

[La Pandera]

Sorry for not responding earlier, I didn't see it. I'll admit some of my comments have been dumb, but I've still been trying to defend the same point the entire time, and yes I made mistakes and I acknowledge that. I recognize Pantani's giro-tour double however that was one year, he didn't dominate over an extended period of time, yes he was a great climber but he didn't dominate for as long as Lance did. As for your argument about Contador, if Contador was dominating then why didn't he go for more stage wins in 2009 like Armstrong did in his tours even though he had already secured his victories? Lance also won many other events besides the tour in his earlier days, but when you realize you can make millions of dollars riding and winning the tour, why would you focus on other events? I think it should be noted that Lance was 11th in the Giro at 38, one has to wonder what he could have done in his prime had he even given a tiny bit of preparation towards it.

Are you forgetting the scenario that Contador was in during the 2009 Tour? Also you readily talk of Armstrong gifting stages (Valverde's wasn't a gift, you're just a bit delusional) but ignore the fact that during the 2009 Tour Contador was easily head and shoulders above his competition, gifting a stage to Frank Schleck and compromising his own glory to ride conservatively on Ventoux to ensure Armstrong got his podium spot. Had he been free to ride his own race and had a team supporting him in winning a prestigious stage as Ventoux, don't you think Contador would've at least attacked on Ventoux to attempt to such a victory? Reprimanded while wearing the yellow jersey for attacking his opponents and leaving a soon to be dropped anyway Kloden in limbo between himself and the Schlecks and a long ago dropped Armstrong. Since when should the yellow jersey be concerned with carrying his teammates to the podium?

It was conflict that was not favorable for the strongest rider in the race who had to take the intiative and strategize his own race to ensure himself of a Tour win. Once that was ensured he was left to literally mend fences with those on his team that felt slighted (Armstrong/Bryuneel) and disrespected by his lack of willingness to be expected to bow down to the return of Armstrong.

 

[La Pandera]

Contador does not like going for stage wins when he doesn't need time. Do you really think he was not strong enough to beat the Schleck double team on that stage (I don't remember which) and beat Garate on Mont Ventoux if he wanted? He did not get dropped, and he dropped everyone when he wanted to, and that is domination.

And by the way, Contador won the 2008 Giro without any preparation.

Multi million dollars? Ok..

I think it is the influence of Indurain which shouldn't be surprising and this was even more evident in this year's Giro, with Tiralongo, Rujano and Anton (or was it Nieve?).

 

[La Pandera]

And even gave away many stagewins.

I remember:
- Pantani
- Basso
- Valverde

3,2,1...till the haters march in to tell us that Lance was clearly beaten by all of them on those stages and clearly lost them without the slightest intention to gift them to anyone.
To round it up by stating that any stage ever won by Armstrong was a gift by his opponents.

You lose credibility with this one. Review the stage again and you will see Armstrong going for the win and being bested by Valverde. I'll state again,
you are delusional if you think that was a gift. But when it comes to Armstrong I think you have on blinders.

 

[La Pandera]

Come on, this has been an interesting thread for the most part. Don't ruin it. Nobody has accused you of 'hating' Bartali, Bahamontes, Van Impe etc.

What you have to understand is in the Armstrong world of blind faith you're either "with us or against us", there is no gray area.

 

[La Pandera]

Fair enough, but I've never criticized someone for their personal opinion.

Labeling those that don't share your viewpoint as "haters" isn't criticism? If it isn't then it's definitely an insult so which is worse?

 

[La Pandera]

how about 04 Santi Perez? was like a thunder on the climbs. tt also.

Assuming you're not being facetious, flashes in the pan don't count. You may as well include the Buffalo, Gutierrez (Phonak) from one of the Giro's in past years (2005?).

 

[jordan5000]

Are you forgetting the scenario that Contador was in during the 2009 Tour? Also you readily talk of Armstrong gifting stages (Valverde's wasn't a gift, you're just a bit delusional) but ignore the fact that during the 2009 Tour Contador was easily head and shoulders above his competition, gifting a stage to Frank Schleck and compromising his own glory to ride conservatively on Ventoux to ensure Armstrong got his podium spot. Had he been free to ride his own race and had a team supporting him in winning a prestigious stage as Ventoux, don't you think Contador would've at least attacked on Ventoux to attempt to such a victory? Reprimanded while wearing the yellow jersey for attacking his opponents and leaving a soon to be dropped anyway Kloden in limbo between himself and the Schlecks and a long ago dropped Armstrong. Since when should the yellow jersey be concerned with carrying his teammates to the podium?

It was conflict that was not favorable for the strongest rider in the race who had to take the intiative and strategize his own race to ensure himself of a Tour win. Once that was ensured he was left to literally mend fences with those on his team that felt slighted (Armstrong/Bryuneel) and disrespected by his lack of willingness to be expected to bow down to the return of Armstrong.

While this is true, the podium was essentially confirmed in the final 3km or so, so if Contador wanted he could have attack, kind of to show who's boss and possibly to try for the stage victory (he finished 38 seconds behind so surely an attack for 2-3km would have gotten him close if not passed him). Also please tell me where I said Armstrong gifted stages, Armstrong said "no gifts" so I don't believe he gave any, if he was beaten it was legitimate.

 

[gregrowlerson]

No way that Valverde's stage win in '05 was a gift. Pantani in '00 possibly.

 

[jordan5000]

No way that Valverde's stage win in '05 was a gift. Pantani in '00 possibly.

I doubt Pantani's was a gift, why would Lance attack to catch up with him and then let him take the stage win? If Lance was going for time with the attack then he would have taken the stage and time bonus.

 

[McLovin]

I'm 100% that Pantani (Ventoux) and Basso (la Mongie) were gifts. Valverde not so much. He tried to atack Piti in the last 500m but he responded and won that stage. With Basso and Pantani was something like with Ullrich on 2001 at Luz Ardiden, for 3rd place i think. No intention to sprint at all. I remebember he tried to offer a stage to JaJA as well, in 2001 at St. Lary- Pla d'Adet(?), but Laurant couldn't follow when he was catched.

 

[Parrulo]

While this is true, the podium was essentially confirmed in the final 3km or so, so if Contador wanted he could have attack, kind of to show who's boss and possibly to try for the stage victory (he finished 38 seconds behind so surely an attack for 2-3km would have gotten him close if not passed him). Also please tell me where I said Armstrong gifted stages, Armstrong said "no gifts" so I don't believe he gave any, if he was beaten it was legitimate.

instead of attacking, contador spent those last 3k protecting armstrong from the wind like he had been doing for the whole climb. also by that time in the race he had the tour in the bag, why cause more controversy?

 

[Angliru]

While this is true, the podium was essentially confirmed in the final 3km or so, so if Contador wanted he could have attack, kind of to show who's boss and possibly to try for the stage victory (he finished 38 seconds behind so surely an attack for 2-3km would have gotten him close if not passed him). Also please tell me where I said Armstrong gifted stages, Armstrong said "no gifts" so I don't believe he gave any, if he was beaten it was legitimate.

At that point there was no doubt as to who was "the Boss".

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I doubt Pantani's was a gift, why would Lance attack to catch up with him and then let him take the stage win? If Lance was going for time with the attack then he would have taken the stage and time bonus.

Why would Laurent Jalabert attack the heads of state when already winning the race, only to then sit up when he caught Bert Dietz and let the little-heralded German who'd been in a 200km solo break take the victory despite giving up precious GC seconds to do so?

That was one of the greatest climaxes to a mountain stage that we've ever seen. Maybe Armstrong felt he was in a safe place with the GC and wanted to give Pantani due credit and respect for the work he'd done that day, same as Jalabert did for Dietz.

 

[jordan5000]

instead of attacking, contador spent those last 3k protecting armstrong from the wind like he had been doing for the whole climb. also by that time in the race he had the tour in the bag, why cause more controversy?

That wouldn't be all that controversial, he'd be going for a stage win and by that point Armstrong's 3rd was safe.

 

[El Pistolero]

That wouldn't be all that controversial, he'd be going for a stage win and by that point Armstrong's 3rd was safe.

No, it wasn't. Frank Schleck was threatening Armstrong's third place. Contador was looking back at him all the time and when they came near the finish he did a fist gesture towards Armstrong to celebrate his podium spot. Contador did exactly what Armstrong did during his Tour years in 2009, ride conservatively after his lead was consolidated. The only difference is that Armstrong would have still sprinted for the stage wins while Contador often did not in 2009.

 

[Escarabajo]

While this is true, the podium was essentially confirmed in the final 3km or so, so if Contador wanted he could have attack, kind of to show who's boss and possibly to try for the stage victory (he finished 38 seconds behind so surely an attack for 2-3km would have gotten him close if not passed him). Also please tell me where I said Armstrong gifted stages, Armstrong said "no gifts" so I don't believe he gave any, if he was beaten it was legitimate.

He gave a stage away to Basso in the 2004 Tour in La Mongie. At least it was clear to me.

That one to Pantani He did not try to sprint. Your logic is good but at least on TV it looked like he eased off to let Pantani win.

IMHO.