Best Sprinter ever

[spalco]

I'm sure I'm not more impartial than you are to Cav.

Florecita is less biased towards Contador than you are towards Boonen.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Florecita is less biased towards Contador than you are towards Boonen.

That is a tough call.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

But is he really? Cycling is less popular now in Europe than in the 70s. Sure some Western countries outside of Europe are now real threats in the cycling world, but most of the world still doesn't care one bit for cycling(no Asians or Africans).

Also you forgot to take into account specialization. Cav is not racing against GC riders, classic riders or hilly riders, but only against sprinters. If anything his competition pool is much smaller now considering that in the 70s cyclists were much more allround than nowadays.

Who are Cav's main sprint rivals?

- Andre Greipel
- Marcel Kittel
- John Degenkolb
- Elia Viviani
- Sacha Modolo
- Alessandro Petacchi(from 2008-2012)
- Daniele Bennati
- Tom Boonen(though due to circumstances Boonen could never reach the Tour in decent shape)
- Tyler Farrar
- Thor Hushovd

A couple of Germans, Italians, a Belgian, a Norwegian and an American. Very big pool there.

So who are Boonen's main rivals?

 

[El Pistolero]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. You list a bunch of riders some of whom competed with Cav others who (like Boonen) aren't half as fast as him.

If these names are supposed to mean something, maybe you should explain what it is.

You then list some nationalities.

And...

You'll notice that these are all nationalities where cycling was already very popular in the 70s with some exceptions. You had quite a few good German, Italian and Belgian cyclists in the 70s. You even had a Swedish Giro winner.

Cav isn't sprinting against a very global field. Because of the globalisation and specialisation in cycling he's riding in a bigger pool than the 70s for sure, but that pool is much more divided than it used to be. Hence the competition pool really isn't that much bigger. It's an illusion. There's not one big competition pool, but many smaller ones.

 

[El Pistolero]

So who are Boonen's main rivals?

Also Europeans, just like in the 70s.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Also Europeans, just like in the 70s.

I meant specific names. Which names on the cobbles has he beaten that will stand the test of time? This is not a trick question I am genuinely curious who you think.

 

[spalco]

Also Europeans, just like in the 70s.

I think he meant specifically.

 

[El Pistolero]

I meant specific names. Which names on the cobbles has he beaten that will stand the test of time? This is not a trick question I am genuinely curious who you think.

I wasn't mocking Cav's rivals if that is what you think. I was showing that their isn't all that much diversity in terms of nationalities and hence globalization.

Boonen's main rivals in the classics(MSR, RvV, P-R and the WC):

Alessandro Petacchi: only for M-SR and the WC(in 2005 he was the big favorite)
Thor Hushovd: in all of them, but mostly in Roubaix.
Fabian Cancellara: in all the classics and also the WC I suppose.
Alejandro Valverde: only at the WC(2005 and 2008).
Philippe Gilbert: M-SR and RvV.
Mark Cavendish: only in M-SR.
Alessandro Ballan: RvV, P-R and the WC.
Filippo Pozzato: in M-SR, RvV and P-R.
George Hincapie: in RvV and P-R.
Stijn Devolder: we all know why.
Juan Antiona Flecha: in RvV and P-R
John Degenkolb: in the future I think he'll challenge in the cobbled classics.
Peter Sagan: in the RvV mostly.
Lars Boom: in P-R mostly.

There are probably some more, but those are the main ones I think. So Italians, Belgians, Spaniards, a German, a Norwegian, a Slovakian, a Brit, a Dutchman, an American and a Suisse.

Of course I'm not counting his allies: Paolo Bettini(in the Ronde and MSR), Sylvain Chavanel, Nikki Terpstra, Kwiatkowski, etc

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I wasn't mocking Cav's rivals if that is what you think. If was showing that their isn't all that much diversity in terms of nationalities and hence globalization.

Thanks.

Nope. Didn't think you were mocking them. As I said I was genuinely curious. The problem with Cav is that he is so dominating it is hard to know if he really is just that good or if there is not the competition that other great sprinters have faced in previous times.

It is fair to say he only has one trick but I think there are aspects to him that are sometimes underrated such as his positioning and ability to read a sprint.

 

[El Pistolero]

Thanks.

Nope. Didn't think you were mocking them. As I said I was genuinely curious. The problem with Cav is that he is so dominating it is hard to know if he really is just that good or if there is not the competition that other great sprinters have faced in previous times.

Yes, without him the palmares of a couple of sprinters would look much better. But I think the same can be said about Cancellara and Boonen in the cobbled classics.

And I used to think Cav's competition was a bit weak when he arrived on the scene in 2008(Boonen out because of the coke, Mcewen past it, Petacchi out, Cipo retired, etc), but since then Kittel and Greipel have definitely stepped up and they're also very good sprinters. Plus there's Sagan, I probably should've added him to Cav's rival list. Farrar was also decent before 2011, but nowadays...

 

[Miburo]

I would have liked to see Boonen when he was at his best in sprints against Cav.

Cav would prob beat him fairly easily though.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I would have liked to see Boonen when he was at his best in sprints against Cav.

Cav would prob beat him fairly easily though.

Depends if there was a hill before the finish or not.

 

[woodenswan]

Boonen said he was against the race neutralization because it allowed some people who already were dropped from the peloton to return after the race kicked off again.

Very different than Cancellara's comments.

amazing..

Boonen: “This is partly a precaution but also a statement to the organisation. They knew long enough that there was so much snow on the road. What happens now is the fault of the organisation. Have you ever wanted to bicycle through the snow? There are nicer things than this. I’m completely frozen.”

vs

Cancellara: "We are watching the Giro d'Italia. This is defently not healthy and has nothing to do with sport. #wrongDesicion"

= both whine about the weather and blame the organisers

.

 

[spalco]

I wasn't mocking Cav's rivals if that is what you think. I was showing that their isn't all that much diversity in terms of nationalities and hence globalization.

Boonen's main rivals in the classics(MSR, RvV, P-R and the WC):

Alessandro Petacchi: only for M-SR and the WC(in 2005 he was the big favorite)
Thor Hushovd: in all of them, but mostly in Roubaix.
Fabian Cancellara: in all the classics and also the WC I suppose.
Alejandro Valverde: only at the WC(2005 and 2008).
Philippe Gilbert: M-SR and RvV.
Mark Cavendish: only in M-SR.
Alessandro Ballan: RvV, P-R and the WC.
Filippo Pozzato: in M-SR, RvV and P-R.
George Hincapie: in RvV and P-R.
Stijn Devolder: we all know why.
Juan Antiona Flecha: in RvV and P-R
John Degenkolb: in the future I think he'll challenge in the cobbled classics.
Peter Sagan: in the RvV mostly.
Lars Boom: in P-R mostly.

There are probably some more, but those are the main ones I think. So Italians, Belgians, Spaniards, a German, a Norwegian, a Slovakian, a Brit, a Dutchman, an American and a Suisse.

Of course I'm not counting his allies: Paolo Bettini(in the Ronde and MSR), Sylvain Chavanel, Nikki Terpstra, Kwiatkowski, etc

Excepting Cancellara those guys have won a combined 14 Classics including WCs out of 72 possible in the 12 years since Boonen became a pro.

By your calculations, none of them can be considered "elite".

 

[El Pistolero]

Excepting Cancellara those guys have won a combined 14 Classics including WCs out of 72 possible in the 12 years since Boonen became a pro.

By your calculations, none of them can be considered "elite".

Thanks for totally missing the point and skewing the numbers in your favor.

 

[El Pistolero]

amazing..

Boonen: “This is partly a precaution but also a statement to the organisation. They knew long enough that there was so much snow on the road. What happens now is the fault of the organisation. Have you ever wanted to bicycle through the snow? There are nicer things than this. I’m completely frozen.”

vs

Cancellara: "We are watching the Giro d'Italia. This is defently not healthy and has nothing to do with sport. #wrongDesicion"

= both whine about the weather and blame the organisers

.

You either took only a part of an interview or you got a wrongly translated interview. I saw Boonen giving the reason for his departure on live television lol.

 

[woodenswan]

You either took only a part of an interview or you got a wrongly translated interview. I saw Boonen giving the reason for his departure on live television lol.

thats a possibility.

another one of course is him being a whiney *****.

 

[Echoes]

Thinking this is about mixed sprinters is ridonculous.

A cycling sprinter is a rider who rides fast on a short distance, whether on the road or on the track is irrelevant for it's the same effort, for the 20th time.

It's very this is about road, so we have to lok at Sercu's palmares on the road.

At his sprinting skills ! On the road, if you want and I've shown multiple time why he was the greatest sprinter of his era, even on the road. Of course, he had a full Six-Days winter season in the bag, he could not race a full summer season as well. But whenever he came up in a road race and that race ends up in a sprint, he was very hard to beat !

If you want more atacking maertens beats his palmares hands down.

It's about SPRINTS ! I've shown you that Sercu beat Maertens more often than not in a sprint (Yes, sir!). Even if I had to consider the age difference. Maertens had talent but was way too erratic to be an all-time great. Sercu remained competitive for 17 years. Besides, Maertens needed a lead-out train (Pollentier and Demeyer), though small compared to present-day sprinters, while Sercu sprinted on his own. At Brooklyn, De Vlaeminck would never lead out the sprint for him, on the contrary they sprinted against each other. Same for Gualazzini, I think, the 3rd sprinter of the team.

Maertens also lacked the personality of a champion, and was a big hypocrite. Ask Schotte.

If you look at stages Darrigade, Alejet, Cippo and Cav beat him.

There's more to cycling than GT's, for the 36th time. And Cipollini does not belong to this section.

He won many titles, but never the WC road.

Lol, have you seen the Worlds profiles in the 70's?

He won less classics and jerseys than Zabel.
etc. etc.

The thread is about SPRINTS !!!!!

Nobody says he wasn't a great cyclist, but by any objective standard he isn't the greatest road sprinter.

I've given objective data that suggest he deserves a mention.

 

[Franklin]

A cycling sprinter is a rider who rides fast on a short distance, whether on the road or on the track is irrelevant for it's the same effort, for the 20th time.

Actually this is not really true. Cavendish and Jelle Nijdam were pursuit champions before turning road sprinters. Whereas Theo Bos still is struggling.

At his sprinting skills ! On the road, if you want and I've shown multiple time why he was the greatest sprinter of his era, even on the road. Of course, he had a full Six-Days winter season in the bag, he could not race a full summer season as well. But whenever he came up in a road race and that race ends up in a sprint, he was very hard to beat !

Nobody says he wasn't a phenomenon or that he isn't pne of the greatest Six Days specialists.

It's about SPRINTS ! I've shown you that Sercu beat Maertens more often than not in a sprint (Yes, sir!). Even if I had to consider the age difference. Maertens had talent but was way too erratic to be an all-time great. Sercu remained competitive for 17 years. Besides, Maertens needed a lead-out train (Pollentier and Demeyer), though small compared to present-day sprinters, while Sercu sprinted on his own. At Brooklyn, De Vlaeminck would never lead out the sprint for him, on the contrary they sprinted against each other. Same for Gualazzini, I think, the 3rd sprinter of the team.

Maertens also lacked the personality of a champion, and was a big hypocrite. Ask Schotte.

You don't like Maertens, but considering he isn't one of the greats is very subjective. There is a good argument to make either way (I think he is one of the alltime greats, but with large character flaws).

There's more to cycling than GT's, for the 36th time. And Cipollini does not belong to this section.

They won a lot more than GT stages... and I wonder why you think Cippo does not belong in this section.

Lol, have you seen the Worlds profiles in the 70's?

Yes, as I'm not as young a you might think.

Basso and Maertens managed a title. Knetemann and Moser too (but those two aren't archetypical sprinters).

I'd say it's less a case of ill suited profiles as teams being built around Merckx and Maertens.

The thread is about SPRINTS !!!!!

Perhaps you fail to realize that not only do point jersey have value for sprinters, some classics also end in bunch finishes.

I've given objective data that suggest he deserves a mention.

Yes, that's definitely true. The whole list is extremely limited.

 

[Ruby United]

Who do people who vote for 'others' have in mind?

 

[Froome19]

No, it's about the best sprinter.

No it is not.

This is the professional road racing section after all.

 

[Froome19]

Difficult to answer, in answer to the poll question I must say Cavendish.

In answer to the question posed by the thread.. well that is an all together different matter, didn't see some of these sprinters in their glory days but Maertens, Zabel etc are all legends.

 

[Franklin]

Who do people who vote for 'others' have in mind?

Oef.... so many options who at least could fit better than some options on this thread. It's a bit of personal preference.

Van Steenbergen, Van Looy (!!!), Basso, Bitossi, Sercu, Darrigade, Reybroeck, De Vlaeminck (though he was more allround, he was a very good sprinter), Raas (like De Vlaeminck, a tad more sprint oriented), Bontempi.

And that's just looking at 1960-1990. If we go further back I'm out of my depth, though Pellisier comes to mind.

 

[El Pistolero]

No it is not.

This is the professional road racing section after all.

Then the question is flawed and you might as well ask who's the best pure sprinter from the 90s onwards.

Because before that, sprinters were different. Yet the question is who's the best sprinter ever.

Track and road went hand in hand in the past. Now that is different. It is unfair to ignore the track aspect when comparing with cyclists from the past. Especially when most people just look at career wins. Like I said, it's not a coincidence that modern sprinters rack up so many wins. Petacchi and Cipo also racked up a ridiculous amount of wins. And unlike Cav, Petacchi had a lot of bad luck in his career and Cipo wasn't invited many times to the Tour. If ASO weren't so petty, Cipo would've racked up a lot more wins in the Tour as well. I don't look at just the wins, I look at the context those wins were or were not gained.

If Freddy Maertens didn't crash in that particular Giro he would've won that Giro plus a lot of other races as well(that crash was the start of a downhill spiral for Maertens). I don't think Cav has ever broken a bone in his body during his pro career. And it's not like he never crashes.

 

[Franklin]

Then the question is flawed

As the title and poll have different titles and the rather arbitrary list in the poll... yes this is extermely flaed, so full agreement there

and you might as well ask who's the best pure sprinter from the 90s onwards.

The list actually seems to reflect that, though somehow the OP felt the need to add Maertens

Because before that, sprinters were different. Yet the question is who's the best sprinter ever.

Granted, it's a fun question and gives us enough reason to bicker and reminiscence.

Track and road went hand in hand in the past. Now that is different.

That's actually not really true as in the past there had been great sprinters who didn't do much on the track.

It is unfair to ignore the track aspect when comparing with cyclists from the past.

You can make a best track sprinter ever poll?

Especially when most people just look at career wins. Like I said, it's not a coincidence that modern sprinters rack up so many wins. Petacchi and Cipo also racked up a ridiculous amount of wins. And unlike Cav, Petacchi had a lot of bad luck in his career and Cipo wasn't invited many times to the Tour. If ASO weren't so petty, Cipo would've racked up a lot more wins in the Tour as well. I don't look at just the wins, I look at the context those wins were or were not gained.

Yes, there seem to be more sprints in the GT's. But on the other hand, guys like Maertens also racked up massive career wins, so it's not that clear cut.

And on the criteria... well I understand your sentiment, but it becomes rather subjective. Perhaps your first comment is the best: you can only look at era's.