Betsy Andreu Appreciation Society

[Race Radio]

Eh, am I on a different planet here?

Yes, you are.

 

[Anonymous]

There is, obviously. Seven tour wins and a greatly determined fight back from cancer. Why can't you just say you dislike him as a person but respect his achievements in a sport that you supposedly like?

You've got too caught up in this whole hollywood celebrity crap. You're not looking at it the right way. The history of sport is littered with determined characters. Without them most sports wouldn't be anything like they have been. It doesn't mean every great rider has to be a villian, but sport is obviously going to attract a fair few single minded characters that you would probably have disliked if you were at school with them or something.

Stop comparing him to Tom Cruise or whoever. That's not how sport works.

I don't, and never have, respected ANYONE for what they achieved on a PERSONAL level. I respect people's character and people whose achievements benefit others over themselves. Mr Armstrong doesn't fall into either of those categories. I don't believe LAF is an extension of Armstrong's desire to help people; I believe LAF is an organization created to make him look like he cares about people, and there is a world of difference.

 

[Anonymous]

As you ask me, I think she should use that determination to further a more contructive cause, like Armstrong does. Hanging around with internet haters isn't going to do her any good in the long run. Armstrong will still have his success and his millions, and Frankie will still have a history of taking EPO.

Anyhow, I think this thread has turned into a lot of pointless insults, which is probably how the troll who started it wanted it to turn into, so i'll leave it there.

Anyhow, I didn't get involved in this thread until a troll insulted someone who actually HAS character to defend one who doesn't. Maybe you need to police your own behavior instead of worrying about that of others.

 

[Race Radio]

As you ask me, I think she should use that determination to further a more contructive cause, like Armstrong does.

So you are saying she should allow Armstrong and his groupies to spread lies about her without saying anything?


Never question the myth.......

 

[blackcat]

I know, and it is unfortunate that it is so prevalent in US culture at this juncture. People don't want the truth, they want an idea to believe in, and in our culture the myth of the self made man is one of the most aspired.

I have never disliked Armstrong for his achievements, it is his character and actions that form my opinion. I don't respect anyone for achievement, I respect people who show character. I also don't understand or respect people who do the reverse.

it is not unique to the US. But the media has been hijacked by the Edward Bernays school of journalism. It is spin writ large in America. In other cultures, the myth making and media control is less prevalent, but it is only a matter of time. It is Orwellian doublethink when the Patriot Act undermines the constitution and someone like Armstrong is seen as a example of virtue. Armstrong has mastered doublespeak. Chapeau.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

There's more to it than that Blackcat. We live in a drive-by media world. Everything is in sound bites. Encapsulated by media feeding the frenzy. A media almost entirely owned by corporations with shareholders expecting constant profits. A media sending out info not to educate or inform like Murrow, Cronkite, etc. but to get attention. Stories are often reduced to 9th grade education level, with the (often accurate) assumption that people don't want to think. The same way they read Twitter not for facts, but to get it right from the source, immediately. Accuracy isn't as important to many as entertainment.

I don't, and never have, respected ANYONE for what they achieved on a PERSONAL level. I respect people's character and people whose achievements benefit others over themselves.

That's an interesting post TFF. I don't know that one has to be altruistic, though it does question why people have respect for what people accomplish for themselves in the world, be that in sports, business, arts, politics, etc.

As I pointed out a few weeks ago in the General forum on Freddie Hoffman, someone who wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone other than himself, and along the way was motivated to help a lot of people too.

 

[forty four]

so some wife wags a finger lame come on thats all anyone has on la yeah im sure he has doped but this is sad. whats funny is the la haters talk about him and spend more time on the subject than anyone else. i have read walshes books among others betsys allegations are not impressive at best and bitter at worst. im not an la fan but the selective blindness and focus only on la is quite sad.

 

[blackcat]

so some wife wags a finger lame come on thats all anyone has on la yeah im sure he has doped but this is sad. whats funny is the la haters talk about him and spend more time on the subject than anyone else. i have read walshes books among others betsys allegations are not impressive at best and bitter at worst. im not an la fan but the selective blindness and focus only on la is quite sad.

forty four, you should have spent some more time in grade school or got your GED.

 

[blackcat]

There's more to it than that Blackcat. We live in a drive-by media world. Everything is in sound bites. Encapsulated by media feeding the frenzy. A media almost entirely owned by corporations with shareholders expecting constant profits. A media sending out info not to educate or inform like Murrow, Cronkite, etc. but to get attention. Stories are often reduced to 9th grade education level, with the (often accurate) assumption that people don't want to think. The same way they read Twitter not for facts, but to get it right from the source, immediately. Accuracy isn't as important to many as entertainment.


That's an interesting post TFF. I don't know that one has to be altruistic, though it does question why people have respect for what people accomplish for themselves in the world, be that in sports, business, arts, politics, etc.

As I pointed out a few weeks ago in the General forum on Freddie Hoffman, someone who wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone other than himself, and along the way was motivated to help a lot of people too.

I would go to Zinn's People's History before I would go to Cronkite. Murrow might pass muster tho. Yeah, there is a 24/7 media cycle, but that is as much the apparatchiks wanting to control it. How many pressas did Bush do in both his terms? It was under half a dozen, discounting speeches and when he hosted visiting dignitaries. The NYTimes has now become, not only a US gov't mouthpiece, but also an Israeli gov't mouthpiece, so much for holding the centres of power accountable, they are mere stenographers.

 

[Hugh Januss]

so some wife wags a finger lame come on thats all anyone has on la yeah im sure he has doped but this is sad. whats funny is the la haters talk about him and spend more time on the subject than anyone else. i have read walshes books among others betsys allegations are not impressive at best and bitter at worst. im not an la fan but the selective blindness and focus only on la is quite sad.

They are not allegations dumbsh!t, have you not been listening or are you not capable of understanding.
She was put on the stand under oath to testify to something that she had overheard. At that point she had the choice of either lying under oath to protect someone who probably wasn't very nice to her most of the time anyway, or telling the truth and having him come after her to discredit and silence her.
Which would you have chosen?
We have seen proof (if you chose to pay attention) that both she and Frankie went as far as they could go in an attempt to get out of testifying. But she was trapped and had too much integrity to lie.
Those are not "allegations" they are facts.
Four people ever said anything about what they heard or said in that room, one changed her story so she is out. One had $5 million in vested interest not including his reputation and his giant cottage industry of cancer research resting on the outcome. Betsy Andreu had nothing to gain or loose other than the choice between lying and telling the truth. Which would you have done?

 

[Anonymous]

so some wife wags a finger lame come on thats all anyone has on la yeah im sure he has doped but this is sad. whats funny is the la haters talk about him and spend more time on the subject than anyone else. i have read walshes books among others betsys allegations are not impressive at best and bitter at worst. im not an la fan but the selective blindness and focus only on la is quite sad.

This Sh!T is un-readable... Is it too much to ask that you write at some sort of grade school level?

 

[Hugh Januss]

This Sh!T is un-readable... Is it too much to ask that you write at some sort of grade school level?

Maybe english is his second (or third?) language. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and focus on the stupid stuff he is saying rather than the stupid manner in which he is saying it.

 

[TrudyTas]

count me in - any girl who stands up to a powerful man deserves respect

 

[usedtobefast]

you all need to calm down ok. i don't have any axe to grind on this but reading all the posts was getting out of control. people speaking there mind in a "rational" way is cool. breath...

 

[blackcat]

I would go to Zinn's People's History before I would go to Cronkite. Murrow might pass muster tho. Yeah, there is a 24/7 media cycle, but that is as much the apparatchiks wanting to control it. How many pressas did Bush do in both his terms? It was under half a dozen, discounting speeches and when he hosted visiting dignitaries. The NYTimes has now become, not only a US gov't mouthpiece, but also an Israeli gov't mouthpiece, so much for holding the centres of power accountable, they are mere stenographers.

G
E
D
education

 

[bianchigirl]

On the question of 'respect' for Armstrong and his achievements:

Even if we take doping out of the equation, I recall a time in the not too distant past when the race was not nullified until the final climb of the day when the team leader was dragged up to the last 5 kms to launch his attack. When Yellow Jerseys attacked audaciously and with panache. When they waited for the peloton to regroup after a devastating crash instead of driving away and taking advantage of the situation. When there were unwritten rules and traditions that the race played by. The way Armstrong manipulated this year's race - and was allowed to do so - made me despair. To read threads where Contador was attacked for riding an attacking race in the MJ (as many had done before him) made me despair. He won 7 Tours, an unprecedented achievement. The manner of his winning leaves me entirely cold and without admiration for the achieving of it.

As for admiration on a personal level - Armstrong is open to scrutiny because he places himself, and has gone out of his way to place himself, in the media spotlight. That a huge constituency give him a free pass because he once had cancer is a dangerous precedent. Do we truly, as 'enlightened' people, believe that illness confers goodness? I thought those kinds of beliefs died out in the Middle Ages. That cancer should confer immunity to scrutiny is at best lazy and at worst dangerous. It's one thing to inspire, quite another to use an illness for personal gain and to deflect criticism.

But there is hope yet - the American political arena may be the one place left where intense scrutiny and downright dirty tricks can uncover inconvenient truths and create suspicion that the 'good guy' might not be all he seems. I can't wait to hear how Armstrong spins the fact that his entire empire is built on lies, cheating and deceit.

 

[the truth.]

Teammates involved in doping cases

28 of 132 teammates of Lance Armstrong (or 21.2%) saw their name appear in cases of doping. Sometimes before, sometimes after or sometimes during their cohabitation in the same jersey.
Philip Grant ANDERSON: teammate at Motorola (1992, 1993, 1994). 1983: positive control
ANDREU Francisco: teammate at Motorola (1992, 1993, 1994) Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995) Motorola (1996) Cofidis (1997) U.S. Postal Service (1998, 1999, 2000). 1995: admissions in 2006 (not sanctioned)
Stéphane BARTHE: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001). 199x: inquiry (not sanctioned)
BELTRAN MARTINEZ Manuel: teammate with U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team (2005). 1999: positive control; 1999: survey of the laboratory (not sanctioned); 2008: positive control
Volodymir BILEKA: teammate at Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team (2005). 2008: positive control
Tom Boonen: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2000, 2002). 2008: positive control
David George: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1999, 2000). 2004: positive control
Roland GREEN: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001). 2004: positive control
Tyler Hamilton: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998, 1999, 2000) U.S. Postal Service (2001). 2004: positive control (not sanctioned); 2004: positive control; 2009: positive and admissions in 2009
Roberto Heras HERNANDEZ: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001) U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003). 2005: positive control
Benoit Joachim: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1999, 2000) U.S. Postal Service (2001) U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team (2005). 2000: positive control (not sanctioned)
Floyd Landis: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004). 2006: positive control
Joan LLANERAS ROSELLO: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998). 2001: positive control
Laurent MADOUI: teammate at Motorola (1996). 1994: positive control
Peter MEINERT-NIELSEN: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998, 1999). 1993: positive control
Alvaro CASTRILLON MEJIA: teammate at Motorola (1993, 1994) Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995). 1987: positive control
Gianpaolo MONDINI: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2002). 2001: flagrante delicto
Kirk O'BEE: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2000). 2001: positive control
Pavel Padrnos: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team (2005). 2001: flagrante delicto (no punishment?)
Victor Hugo Pena Grisales: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001) U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004). 2001: positive control (no punishment?)
Andrea PERON: teammate at Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995) Motorola (1996). 2001: flagrante delicto (no punishment?)
Jean-Cyril ROBIN: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998). 199x: admissions in 2004 (no sanction?)
Maximilian SCIANDRA: teammate at Motorola (1992, 1993, 1996). 2001: police investigation (no punishment?)
Stephen SWART: teammate at Motorola (1994) Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995). 1995: admissions in 2004 (not sanctioned)
Jonathan VAUGHTERS: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998, 1999). 199x: confession (not sanctioned)
Matthew WHITE: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001) U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003). 1998: positive control
Sean Yates: teammate at Motorola (1992, 1993, 1994) Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995) Motorola (1996). 1989: positive control (not sanctioned)
Cezary Zaman: teammate at Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995). 1999: positive control

 

[blackcat]

so some wife wags a finger lame come on thats all anyone has on la yeah im sure he has doped but this is sad. whats funny is the la haters talk about him and spend more time on the subject than anyone else. i have read walshes books among others betsys allegations are not impressive at best and bitter at worst. im not an la fan but the selective blindness and focus only on la is quite sad.

G
E
D
education

 

[blackcat]

Teammates involved in doping cases

28 of 132 teammates of Lance Armstrong (or 21.2%) saw their name appear in cases of doping. Sometimes before, sometimes after or sometimes during their cohabitation in the same jersey.
Philip Grant ANDERSON: teammate at Motorola (1992, 1993, 1994). 1983: positive control
ANDREU Francisco: teammate at Motorola (1992, 1993, 1994) Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995) Motorola (1996) Cofidis (1997) U.S. Postal Service (1998, 1999, 2000). 1995: admissions in 2006 (not sanctioned)
Stéphane BARTHE: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001). 199x: inquiry (not sanctioned)
BELTRAN MARTINEZ Manuel: teammate with U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team (2005). 1999: positive control; 1999: survey of the laboratory (not sanctioned); 2008: positive control
Volodymir BILEKA: teammate at Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team (2005). 2008: positive control
Tom Boonen: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2000, 2002). 2008: positive control
David George: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1999, 2000). 2004: positive control
Roland GREEN: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001). 2004: positive control
Tyler Hamilton: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998, 1999, 2000) U.S. Postal Service (2001). 2004: positive control (not sanctioned); 2004: positive control; 2009: positive and admissions in 2009
Roberto Heras HERNANDEZ: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001) U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003). 2005: positive control
Benoit Joachim: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1999, 2000) U.S. Postal Service (2001) U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team (2005). 2000: positive control (not sanctioned)
Floyd Landis: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004). 2006: positive control
Joan LLANERAS ROSELLO: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998). 2001: positive control
Laurent MADOUI: teammate at Motorola (1996). 1994: positive control
Peter MEINERT-NIELSEN: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998, 1999). 1993: positive control
Alvaro CASTRILLON MEJIA: teammate at Motorola (1993, 1994) Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995). 1987: positive control
Gianpaolo MONDINI: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2002). 2001: flagrante delicto
Kirk O'BEE: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2000). 2001: positive control
Pavel Padrnos: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team (2005). 2001: flagrante delicto (no punishment?)
Victor Hugo Pena Grisales: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001) U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2004). 2001: positive control (no punishment?)
Andrea PERON: teammate at Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995) Motorola (1996). 2001: flagrante delicto (no punishment?)
Jean-Cyril ROBIN: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998). 199x: admissions in 2004 (no sanction?)
Maximilian SCIANDRA: teammate at Motorola (1992, 1993, 1996). 2001: police investigation (no punishment?)
Stephen SWART: teammate at Motorola (1994) Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995). 1995: admissions in 2004 (not sanctioned)
Jonathan VAUGHTERS: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (1998, 1999). 199x: confession (not sanctioned)
Matthew WHITE: teammate with U.S. Postal Service (2001) U.S. Postal Service (2002) U.S. Postal Service Presented by Berry Floor (2003). 1998: positive control
Sean Yates: teammate at Motorola (1992, 1993, 1994) Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995) Motorola (1996). 1989: positive control (not sanctioned)
Cezary Zaman: teammate at Motorola - Merckx - Volvo (1995). 1999: positive control

Kloeden Freiburg
Contador Puerto
Paulinho Puerto
Leipheimer crit championships for some Bagels team circa 97

 

[Izoard]

Betsy Andreu Appreciation Society

I'm in.

I'm in +100

 

[tubularglue]

betsy,

keep your head high, with dignity


nothing ever changes if nothing ever changes

 

[red_flanders]

Count me in. Keep on keepin' on Betsy.

 

[Deagol]

You know, I once posted a comment that wasn’t really “anti-AC” in an AC appreciation thread. It may have been interpreted as anti-AC by some in the strictest sense, but that’s opinion. I was told that my comment was “posted in the wrong thread”. Being as this is a Betsy appreciation thread, perhaps the anti-Betsy comments are in the wrong thread also?

As far as “internet haters” here, that’s probably not very accurate in most cases. I don’t hate LA, and I’m sure many here don’t either. Things are seldom black & white. You can admire someone for showing guts (in this case BA) without hating the person that her comments may damage the reputation of (in this case LA). I admire BA for sticking to her guns. It is very tough to put yourself out there (even if it was not initially your choice) when you know that what you are saying will rain on so many people’s parades… and people being how they are, often lash out at the bringer of bad news instead of looking at that bad news objectively.

As far as the Betsy Appreciation Society, count me in as well …….

 

[elizab]

This has been fun. Thanks!

Although the dissenters don't advance the argument with their "bitter/hate" dogma, it's gotten funny to read them.
Speaking of funny:
http://velocitynation.com/ Click on "Toto"

 

[scribe]

This has been fun. Thanks!

Although the dissenters don't advance the argument with their "bitter/hate" dogma, it's gotten funny to read them.
Speaking of funny:
http://velocitynation.com/ Click on "Toto"

What position do you think certain posters are dissenting from?